Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Baygham Khan Appreciation Thread/ Best Yusufzai award

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Toramana View Post
    Ahmad Shah Barelvi was not a Pashtun let a Yousazai...He was kicked by Pashtuns out when he tried to impose the Hindustani brand Islam on Pashtuns...
    Wrong, per my back and forth with Baygham (all cut and pasted from here):

    http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...9/index11.html

    Please write to the Tribal Analysis Center which is also acting on funds from Uncle Sam and providing info/guidance to Central Intelligence and the US Army from their research; please then, have them correct this tidbit:

    "Missing in the available literature is an understanding of the Pashtun tribal connections to all of this new form of “revolutionary Islam”, as it developed deeply within northeast India where scholars consistently refer to the Rohillas as “Afghans”, but there is an excellent reason for the speed with which Sayed Ahmad Shah’s political-religious message was accepted by the Pashtuns, especially the Yusufzai tribe. The answer is simple: the initial “Hindustani Fanatics” were simply returning home to Pashtun country. Most of the original group that followed and supported Sayed Ahmad Shah, if not all of them, were probably Yusufzai Pashtuns. At a minimum, they were born and raised in a part of India that was once controlled by the independent Rohilla Pashtuns, most of whom were members of the Yusufzai tribe."



    "Into this complex cultural mix, with its recent losses to the Shi’a, Sikhs, and the British, the next leader of the militants was born in Bareilly on November 29, 1786

    33 – a little over twelve years after the destruction of the Rohilla’s adopted homeland. While the historical record shows that Ahmad Shah was a “Sayed” or could trace his family genealogy directly to the Prophet Mohammad, it is nearly a certainty that he was a member ofthe Yusufzai tribe, like the other Muslims living in this region."



    The article rebuts any gripes you might have by providing some cold hard logic Baygham Khan:




    "Given the traditional and deeply ingrained xenophobia found with all of the Pashtun hill tribes, it is highly unlikely that that anyone, regardless of his Sayed status, its lineage derived from the Prophet Mohammad, and his recent trip to Mecca – there were many, many men having these attributes in the region – that someone speaking a foreign language would ever have found acceptance within the Pashtun tribes, much less with the speed that Sayed Ahmad Shah was elected as their leader and about to lead them into a war with the powerful Sikhs. Sayed Ahmad Shah was probably a Rohilla or his mother belonged to that group of Pashtuns. There are few other explanations for the speed with which he became the war leader of the Yusufzai and allied Pashtun tribes."

    http://www.tribalanalysiscenter.com/...Deobandism.pdf

    Marra Baygham Khan Baba, khabaraa khatmaa swaa, aumanaa kanaa che dha reshtyaanaay au sahih akass pa tarikh key dasaay waau:


    Syed Ahmad Shah ---><----- Yusufzai Tribe


    Khushal Khan Khattak ---> <------ Yusufzai Tribe


    Per above:
    Monsh tha malmeezhee chey sa rarawaand dee aum dasaa ba wee:


    Mullah Umar/Mullah Fazlullah, etc --->+ Yusufzai =


    "Given the traditional and deeply ingrained xenophobia found with all of the Pashtun hill tribes, it is highly unlikely that that anyone, regardless of his Sayed status, its lineage derived from the Prophet Mohammad, and his recent trip to Mecca – there were many, many men having these attributes in the region – that someone speaking a foreign language would ever have found acceptance within the Pashtun tribes, much less with the speed that Sayed Ahmad Shah was elected as their leader and about to lead them into a war with the powerful Sikhs. Sayed Ahmad Shah was probably a Rohilla or his mother belonged to that group of Pashtuns. There are few other explanations for the speed with which he became the war leader of the Yusufzai and allied Pashtun tribes."

    As I said, invite the Tribal Analysis Officials to a debate over the British literature and citations:


    "The greater percentage of the Pashtuns were from the Yusufzai tribe, a group reported by the British known for quickly turning to religious leaders for advice and control during tribal unrest. They accepted respected outsiders as leaders who could mediate between squabbling subtribes rather than select a member of any of their subtribes as a leader who would only polarize current animosities rather than minimize
    them."
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

    Comment


    • #32
      BarakzaiAbdali, I have already told you Tribal Analysis Center is a shame in the name of scholarship and research...They have also called the poineers of Deoband (Qasim Nanutuvi etc.) Pashtuns...and they qualify every statement with probably...now that is not a research ....We don't know who is feeding them (may be Punjabis ISI)...If Americans believe this, they will really be gullible as the general impression about them is...

      Anyhow, I can give you proof that Ahmad Shah Barelvi was kicked out by Pashtuns...because he tried to impose Sharia, because he asked Pashtuns to get their daughters married to the Hindustani Mujahideen/sharian that had come with him...and that he had imprisoned Khan of Zaida along with his family...Dishonouring females is against Pashtun traditions....
      Last edited by Toramana; 02-20-2011, 11:42 PM.

      Comment


      • #33
        That is wht Maulana Ghulan Rasool Mahr the Punjabi Jummaath-i-Islami ideologue castigates Pashtuns and Afghans....

        Comment


        • #34
          But anyhow, da Barakzai sara mai khkarai ojangawalai...oos ba khpal khair ghwaro...hahaha

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Toramana View Post
            BarakzaiAbdali, I am seeing a problem with you that is, you can count the trees but cannot see the jungle...What I mean by this is that you don't have the kind of holistic, universalistic, and objective view of human affair, which characterise men (and women) of higher intellect. You are caught too much in the web of caste and creed to be able to see, understand, rationalise, and generalise (as well as appreciate) what is external to your own personal world (shaped by belief in the super-natural).

            Probably, this is due to your training as a doctor. I may be wrong but my impression is, medical knowledge is not like mathematical, philosophical, etc. knowledge where rules, principles, laws, theorems, axioms, etc. coalesce into one grand/general truth (kind of meta-knowledge) to provide one a model/tool for explaining, interpreting, and understanding a whole range of phenomena and enable one to derive higher truth from existing system of rules. My hunch is, medical knowledge appears as a set of individual facts where every fact is separate from other facts and is to be learn't in its own right and that, individual facts don't merge into a one "whole" or a single system or grand truth (like a formula in mathematics or systems of equations in physics e.g. Newtonian Mechanics) . Therefore, in medical you cannot employ the kind of generalization as you do in other forms of knowledges.

            I have met very few doctors with an intellect. For good intellect, you must be able generalise (abstract) as well specialise/concretise. Here on this forum Baygham and Gulalai (both doctors) were/are two individuals I find of higher intellect (whereas Gulalai has left Baygham is still here).

            This is also common with most Islamists for whom history starts just 14 hundred years ago or the entire truth lies within their own ideological bounds. Simply being rhetorical wouldn't give you an intellectual edge or guide others to truth.
            You forget Wrorre, I was an engineer before I was a doctor. There are men that see the world as it is (myself, Graveyard, Edge, etc) and men who see the world as they want it to be (yourself, Baygham, and Osho)

            However, let us dance a little, at least figuratively. What I have observed is that your general modus operandi has been based on a creed all in and of itself and your general manner of arguement proceeds based on this creed (almost like a minor Bible or Quran in and of itself). For the most part, it is nonevidence based (evidence based practice is a core principle of American medicine). Here is that creed from that website at Malakand:

            "A student organization that is leftist, secular, liberal, progressive and nationalist in nature. It is the student wing of Awami National Party. It was formed in 1968. It is present in numerous educational institutions of Pakistan. Majid Khan of NWFP Agricultural University from Nawa Kali, Swabi is the President of PSF Pakhtunkhwa."

            http://psfuom.blogspot.com/2010/12/m...n-hero-of.html

            So from this, you basically build your belief system of sorts. Instead of laying out a set of data and then deriving an interpretation, or at least coming up with a hypothesis and then examining whether the data supports your hypothesis or the null hypothesis, you cherry pick the data to fit that creed above. Anything that threatens the creed is ipso facto condemned.

            So for this reason, you find Baygham to be of higher "intellect", primarily because his worldview (non evidence based and fanatically emotional at times) fits, like a hand in a glove, neatly within your own worldview. This is despite the fact that he appears to be a psychiatrist (possibly a neuropsychiatrist) which is probably one of the least competitive subspecialities within the field itself. Oh sure, their subject matter is very interesting, but it ends there. Usually, that segment of applicants has the lower end board scores, they rarely achieve alpha omega alpha honorary status, and they rely on about 1 year of internship training to somehow justify the MD initials at the end of their name. If he is a neurologist, all they really do during the day is try and find someone to give tPA to in order to validate their profession.

            The essential problem I have with this approach (and it is one typical of the ANP a little more than the Afghan Mellat Automaton) is that it breeds an opportunistic set of people with a nearly third reich style indoctrination to governs their comings and goings. For example, come the RussoAfghan conflict you were all communists and anticapitalist... now come the Americo-Afghan conflict you are all secular progressive capitalists. This is evidenced by the fact that you guys tend to pull from what appears to be an argument well of sorts. There are a set of red herrings that you launch and, almost like a dishonest Missionary in Africa (or if you prefer a desi phone sales person that greets you with salaam alaykum), when they are disproven definitively... you have no qualm about using the same debunked argument all over again with the next man in line.

            What happens is that every enemy becomes an Islamist in this warped sense of reality. Yet somehow Pat Buchanon makes the same evidence derived arguments and a deafening silence, or a situation of suspended belief ensues because you cannot label such a critic, armed with reality at his side, with this canard.

            And yes, there is Newtonian Mechanics, but there are the finer things beneath the surface, the world of Einstein that seguays away from the macro world Newton engaged and explains the world on a finer scale. Few grasp his brand of originality. Do you know why? Because an original mind is not needed to understand what lies right before you. It does not require a doctorate or an engineering degree to tell you what a kalaay malang can tell you just by living 30 short years of life wrorre:

            It is the simple lesson that history is cyclical. The old adage, that those that ignore it are doomed to repeat it, is lost on you. Instead you attempt to impose that creed above on others. When Afghans rise up to fight an occupier, you tell them: "sit still, recuperate, benefit from the occupant." The Afghan responds: "Never, no man on earth will sit still under social and physical occupation." You respond: "this has happened in all times and in all places...you permitted it when Muhammad's (S) people came to you." The Afghan responds: "I chose Muhammad's (S) doctrine and adhere to it like I adhere to my land and whether I be a looter, a brigand, a simple village survivalist.. my nang rests there." You answer: "No really, I know you better than you know you." He answers: "If you knew me, you would know that I could barely tolerate Arabs within my fighting units as I killed Russians... but you did not read or understand what went on... you assumed what went on." So then you are left with your most common refrain we have witnessed: "Wait... you cannot bea Pashtun... you, you, you must be a Camel!" Basically, you ask him to do what no Irishman, no American Indian, or subsequent American Revolutionary, no soldier of Bolivar, no Egyptian at Tahrir did, which is to accept hegemony as he sees it.

            In your worldview, Islam hides in the dark corners ready to jump out at you like a bogeyman. You ignore the evidence before you and behind you about what drives islamists and what it ultimately takes to defeat them. Yet the men on the other side, those doyens named Scheuer, Hoh, Bernard Lewis (even though he advocates a clash of civilizations), and numerous other folks see the facts of the matter that elude you.. because they study history. You chose to ignore it or warp it to fit your worldview.

            Regarding medical knowledge: It is highly integrated at the physiological level and there are binding motifs behind disease states, even across organ systems.

            Finally, when defeated on all fronts, your last grasp (and gasp) is to attempt and merely attribute your failure to derive evidence for a single one of your views to the insufficient intelligence of your opponent.

            Take for example the amount of childlike screeching you put up when I first came to the forum and stated what Ghaznavi and others had already stated. Recall my discussions on the realities of the durand line and of the strategic fallacies in your approach to Pakistan. I underlined each and every reality lacking view of yours. What was your response?: To throw a nonrepresentative, agenda laced article at me from a lady who in no way represents the Pashtun woman on the ground and advocates killing from within and without: Farhat Taj ANDERSEN. Now, we have this report from Admin Khan and note my responses and the quotes therein:



            Each and every statement I made is now independently validated.

            I shall leave you with a fellow engineer's commentary on how he preferred this forum to run when we cite ideologies, and we have adhered to it, relying less on emotion and more on evidence based practice:

            http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...ease-read-489/

            "Salam respected PF members,

            I would highly appreciate it if a source can be added when you make a claim or attempt to state a fact, Not only would it improve our readership, It would also give respect to the person who has put enormous research behind the source. On addition to that, It would also add more weight to your claim/argument.


            Thank you very much, I hope you take my request into consideration.


            Dera manana "
            Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 02-21-2011, 12:02 AM.
            "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Toramana View Post
              BarakzaiAbdali, I have already told you Tribal Analysis Center is a shame in the name of scholarship and research...They have also called the poineers of Deoband (Qasim Nanutuvi etc.) Pashtuns...and they qualify every statement with probably...now that is not a research ....We don't know who is feeding them (may be Punjabis ISI)...If Americans believe this, they will really be gullible as the general impression about them is...

              Anyhow, I can give you proof that Ahmad Shah Barelvi was kicked out by Pashtuns...because he tried to impose Sharia, because he asked Pashtuns to get their daughters married to the Hindustani Mujahideen/sharian that had come with him...and that he had imprisoned Khan of Zaida along with his family...Dishonouring females is against Pashtun traditions....
              Typical to your MO, you cannot debunk the source so you attempt to discredit it by ignoring the facts of the article. The article provides logical inference and supports it from citing the original British writings about the gentleman in question. Why not just admit that he was one of your own? Besides, it was not your own that set him out, it was actually the Barakzai sardars that made a quick end to him by not supporting him (a local Arbab tribal elder however did). The Arbabs are another local feudal Pashtun group on your side of the border.

              How we shall resolve this is we expect you to invite the article authors and the tribal analysis center folks to the forum. Let us have a discussion and a back and forth between you two.

              Debunk the quotes and inferences one by one. Explain the inferences made by the British in regard to his rapid acceptance by the Yusufzai. His being thrown out is merely because he replaced Pashtunwali with a set of wahhabi doctrinal laws.
              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                BarakzaiAbdali, I have already told you Tribal Analysis Center is a shame in the name of scholarship and research...They have also called the poineers of Deoband (Qasim Nanutuvi etc.) Pashtuns...and they qualify every statement with probably...now that is not a research ....We don't know who is feeding them (may be Punjabis ISI)...If Americans believe this, they will really be gullible as the general impression about them is...

                Anyhow, I can give you proof that Ahmad Shah Barelvi was kicked out by Pashtuns...because he tried to impose Sharia, because he asked Pashtuns to get their daughters married to the Hindustani Mujahideen/sharian that had come with him...and that he had imprisoned Khan of Zaida along with his family...Dishonouring females is against Pashtun traditions....
                Also find out who is feeding them then and prove your assertion. They are funded by grants from the US government. Moreover, their research was spot on about Karzai himself. Our families elders sat in the jirgas (my paternal grandmother was a Fofalzaay) and were as confounded when a gentleman that we knew was a Shamizai and not a Sadozai (his father Abdul Ahad) seized the reins of Fofalzaay leadership (this was in the 1980s). It was highly unusual for the leadership of such a massive tribe to transfer from the Khan Khel zaath to that group of people. I was very impressed when they located this little known fact about Karzai.
                "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                Comment


                • #38
                  Barakzai, his name is Syed Ahmad Barelvi...not Ahmad Shah Barelvi...He claimed to be a Sayed...not a Pashtun...

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The Tehreek e Mujahideen is rightly considered a very important, popular, and successful movement. A well renowned historian of modern times, Toin B. states that the Tehreek e Mujahideen was the first such movement meant for freeing the Muslims of the sub continent from the hands of the British and their cronies; the Sikhs and Hindus. He considers this movement as one of the founding efforts by Muslims of the subcontinent which would eventually lead to the creation of Pakistan.
                    Centuries have passed but still the muslims of the sub continent willingly contribute their lives and wealth to the cause of Jehad and Islam; all because of the influence of the Tehreek e Mujahideen. Most of these people even now associate themselves with this movement and consider it a glorious era of the Muslims.
                    Most of the people associated with this movement were Pashtoons from the Frontier. Some of the prominent personalities that come to mind at mention of the Tehreek e Mujahideen are Syed Akbar Shah of Sathana and Arbab Bahram Khan of Tehkal Bala. These were the people who devoted their whole lives for this movement. Apart from them, another prominent figure was Jan Nisar Syed Muhammad Hubaan. It is narrated in 'Manzoora' that Muhammad Hubaan was a very pious, brave, straight-forward and knowledgeable Alim of Islam. He always stood out for truth and principles but he used to get Angry very quickly.
                    Syed Muhammad Hubaan was a resident of Kan'rha (Ghorband). He was renowned for his speaking power and this ability combined with his knowledge of Islam would always mesmerize the audience. His words would knock at the deepest and most inaccessible portions of his listeners' hearts and minds. Muhammad Hubaan obtained his religious education from various Institutions in India and also served as Pesh Imam in a mosque-cum-madrassa. It was Syed Ahmad Shaheed's visit to Bajaur where Syed Muhammad Hubaan had had the privilege of meeting him. On this occasion, Muhammad Hubaan asked permission for Baiyah from Syed Ahmad Shaheed in order to devote his life to the Tehreek e Mujahideen. Syed Ahmad Shaheed was impressed with the Piety and Simplicity of Syed Hubaan and replied, "Take Baiyah! Inshallah Allah will bring Barkat (blessings) in it". So Muhammad Hubaan proceeded with Baiyah. After some time, in another meeting with Syed Ahmad Shaheed, Muhammad Hubaan mentioned in context of his Baiyah, "I was blind before, then Allah gave me Eyes, I was a Kafir before, then I became a Muslim". Syed Ahmad Shaheed broke his words here and advised him, "Don't say like that; Say that I was a Muslim before, but now my level of Iman has increased."....

                    http://www.khyber.org/people/sarfaro...adHubaan.shtml

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                      Barakzai, his name is Syed Ahmad Barelvi...not Ahmad Shah Barelvi...He claimed to be a Sayed...not a Pashtun...
                      Once again, read the article... they address the Syed issue. I believe the construct of their argument makes sense. Take for example Syed Rahmatullah Hashemi... of the Afghan Taliban. He is no doubt a Qandahari. The support for these supposed Syed claims to the subcontinent are weak at best. Ill leave you the homework of finding the key part of the article.
                      "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        "Given the traditional and deeply ingrained xenophobia found with all of the Pashtun hill tribes, it is highly unlikely that that anyone, regardless of his Sayed status, its lineage derived from the Prophet Mohammad, and his recent trip to Mecca – there were many, many men having these attributes in the region – that someone speaking a foreign language would ever have found acceptance within the Pashtun tribes, much less with the speed that Sayed Ahmad Shah was elected as their leader and about to lead them into a war with the powerful Sikhs. Sayed Ahmad Shah was probably a Rohilla or his mother belonged to that group of Pashtuns. There are few other explanations for the speed with which he became the war leader of the Yusufzai and allied Pashtun tribes."
                        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Toramana View Post
                          Barakzai, his name is Syed Ahmad Barelvi...not Ahmad Shah Barelvi...He claimed to be a Sayed...not a Pashtun...

                          Btw, you appear to be winning the favorite Yusufzai poll... what should we make your prize be wrorre?
                          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Early life

                            Saiyid Ahmad Shah was from a family of Hasni Syeds, distantly related to the family of Shah Waliullah. Syed Ahmed Barelvi, or Syed Ahmed Shaheed, as he became known, was born near Lucknow, in the town of Rae Bareli (Bareilly). His father died while he was still young and after attempting to find employment in Delhi, Syed Ahmed decided he needed further education. In 1806, Syed Ahmed enrolled in the famous Madrassa of Shah Walliullah in Delhi. Syed Ahmed was amongst the generation of Muslims who were dismayed at the end of the Mughal empire and were fearful of the chaos and violence which was almost inevitably going to follow.

                            http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/..._Ahmad_Shaheed

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post
                              "Given the traditional and deeply ingrained xenophobia found with all of the Pashtun hill tribes, it is highly unlikely that that anyone, regardless of his Sayed status, its lineage derived from the Prophet Mohammad, and his recent trip to Mecca – there were many, many men having these attributes in the region – that someone speaking a foreign language would ever have found acceptance within the Pashtun tribes, much less with the speed that Sayed Ahmad Shah was elected as their leader and about to lead them into a war with the powerful Sikhs. Sayed Ahmad Shah was probably a Rohilla or his mother belonged to that group of Pashtuns. There are few other explanations for the speed with which he became the war leader of the Yusufzai and allied Pashtun tribes."

                              Hahaha, Barakzai, the simple fact is Pashtun Khans couldn't decide who would be the leader (common with Pashtuns), they decided to appoint a non-Pashtun to lead the war...This is exactly what happened in Swat where the Khan failing to dominate and establish a state brought Sayed Adbdul Jabbar Shah of Sathana ...


                              And the author of this article fails to mention that as quickly Pashtuns had accepted Sayed Ahamd Barelvi, so quickly did they ditch him when he tried to impose sharia and curtail the power of Khans and asked common Pashtuns to get their daughters married to Hindustanis that had come with him...He couldn't even stay on Pashtun land and went to Hazzara (Balakote)....
                              Last edited by Toramana; 02-21-2011, 12:42 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post
                                ..........................................
                                So for this reason, you find Baygham to be of higher "intellect", primarily because his worldview (non evidence based and fanatically emotional at times) fits, like a hand in a glove, neatly within your own worldview. This is despite the fact that he appears to be a psychiatrist (possibly a neuropsychiatrist) which is probably one of the least competitive subspecialities within the field itself. Oh sure, their subject matter is very interesting, but it ends there. Usually, that segment of applicants has the lower end board scores, they rarely achieve alpha omega alpha honorary status, and they rely on about 1 year of internship training to somehow justify the MD initials at the end of their name. If he is a neurologist, all they really do during the day is try and find someone to give tPA to in order to validate their profession. ................................
                                I already told you I am a student of human cognition and not a psychiatrist. I can still give you and your whole cardiology department a series of lectures on human cognition and the workings of the brain (consider it a part time hobby of mine), may clear some misunderstandings. I know interventional cardiology is a technical field and hands are needed more than the head, but hey, in case, you had to use it somewhere else.

                                BTW the most competitive residency in 2010 was pediatrics. With that in mind should we send a UN delegation to the peds department for guidance.Top 10 Most Competitive Residencies (2010) » Medliorate.com | Improving Medial Students

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X