What constitutes a Pashtun?

[IamDZJ]

You could always buy some hair color and a treadmill for someone you like

get lost

[Zayam]

Roadrunner,
Pashtuns are patriarchal. Marrying outside the Pashtun spectrum is never encouraged but if a child is born to a Pashtun dad, he is a Pashtun.

This is not surprising but still interesting. In the U.S.A. for example (though probably everyone knows this already) a child has whatever nationality his or her mother has.

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner,
Pashtuns are patriarchal. Marrying outside the Pashtun spectrum is never encouraged but if a child is born to a Pashtun dad, he is a Pashtun.

So Pashtuns are patriarchal. Therefore physical features are unimportant and Gary Coleman could have been a Pashtun? If his father was a Pashtun, I mean.

[IamDZJ]

That clears it up.

Roadrunner,

I am not proud to say this, but we Pashtuns are racist indiscriminately. We will rarely ever marry non-Pashtuns, and if we do, it is the man who marries a non-Pashtun, and even he is made a clown by doing this!!!

Yes, regardless of how the child looks, if their father is Pashtun, they are Pashtun. Now, we don't marry blacks and unlike inferior Indians and Pakistanis (I have heard of a few who have done this- one pakistani man dumped his wife for a white woman), we Pashtuns don't marry whites!! Does that clear any misconceptions you have? If we marry outside our ethnic group, it has to be at least be some ethnic group from Afghanistan, not some random European, African, or American mut!!! With intermixing, we will lose our features, and NO ONE IN THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE US. PERIOD. This never happens, and when it does those people are looked down upon by everyone in the Pashtun community. I can't speak for other communities, but my community is very orthodox.
We Pashtuns do have unique features (this sounds stupid saying), and you can tell someone is a Pashtun by the way they stand and walk. They walk upright, and people will fear a Pashtun who enters a room. 'confidence is stain that they can't wipe off!" There is an aura around them that you will sense to. We feel superior to everyone!!!

he speaks for himself.

[roadrunner]

That clears it up.

Roadrunner,

I am not proud to say this, but we Pashtuns are racist indiscriminately.

According to you Pashtuns are racist indiscriminately.

Another Pashtun might have a different opinion.

We will rarely ever marry non-Pashtuns, and if we do, it is the man who marries a non-Pashtun, and even he is made a clown by doing this!!!

That's not really racist. Most ethnic groups marry within.

Yes, regardless of how the child looks, if their father is Pashtun, they are Pashtun. Now, we don't marry blacks and unlike inferior Indians and Pakistanis (I have heard of a few who have done this- one pakistani man dumped his wife for a white woman), we Pashtuns don't marry whites!!

I'm not sure that is altogether true. I'm sure for some Pashtuns it is Pashtun or the highway, and for others it's other things that matter, much like anyone else.

Does that clear any misconceptions you have? If we marry outside our ethnic group, it has to be at least be some ethnic group from Afghanistan, not some random European, African, or American mut!!!

I put it to you that someone in Europe or Africa or even America might be more similar to a Pashtun than some Afghans. Not all in the slightest, but some, even if it's just one or two.

With intermixing, we will lose our features, and NO ONE IN THE WORLD LOOKS LIKE US. PERIOD.

Right. So what are these features that Pashtuns have?

This never happens, and when it does those people are looked down upon by everyone in the Pashtun community. I can't speak for other communities, but my community is very orthodox.

Can I ask what Pashtun features you have?

We Pashtuns do have unique features (this sounds stupid saying), and you can tell someone is a Pashtun by the way they stand and walk. They walk upright, and people will fear a Pashtun who enters a room. 'confidence is stain that they can't wipe off!" There is an aura around them that you will sense to. We feel superior to everyone!!!

So all Pashtuns walk in the same way and are arrogant?

[amna.]

Quite a harsh criteria there, would you give any flexibility to this definition?

What part of my list looks harsh?


Welcome to our community by the way.

[Wrayun]

duplicate delete.....

[Wrayun]

duplicate delete.....

[Wrayun]

roadrunner,

The English language has many different cultures. It could be Welsh or Gaelic, Canadian, or even Indian where it is spoken.

No. Englishmen can be from different racial stocks but their culture is mostly English. That is because they adopted the English langauge which is the promoter of the English heritage. Look up language and it's association with culture.

Indians, Welsh, Scots, Irish, are those who still speak their languages, and THAT IS WAY THEY HAVE THEIR UNIQUE CULTURES TODAY BECAUSE THEY SPEAK THEIR LANGUAGES. The day the rest of these Scots, Irish etc. stop speaking their languages and completely assimilate into ENGLISH, that day their identity of SCOT, IRISH etc. dies. That is the IMPORTANCE of language.

"Englishmen" or "English" is not a race. English is a culture and English is a language, which are now adopted by various groups of people from all over the world.

Milmastia in English means hospitality.
It doesn't really have a different meaning.

But it is more important to Pashtun culture than many of the English-speaking cultures.

It is Pashtunwali that gives it this importance, not really Pashto.

Pashtunwali would be how an observant Pashtun's culture would be I suppose.

Melmastiya can be interpreted in English to hospitality, but in Pukhto Melmastiya is more than your simple definition of "hospitality". It has various degrees, one that correlate with Nanawatey.

How would you say Nang, Namus, Ghairat, Lokhay, Tega, Barmeeta etc. translate to in English? These words don't have singular meanings and interpretations. For example Nang, Namus, Ghairat are concepts that are interchangeable, but not applicable in the same manner in certain scenarios.

The term "Pashtunwali" does not exist amongst Pukhtoons. Pukhtoons refer to it as Pukhto. Pashtunwali is a fairly new term mostly used by scholars of certain regions to describe the concepts of Pukhto. I have stressed that to you more than once.

I would disagree with this.

As long as each aspect of Pashtunwali is translatable, you can implement it whether you speak Pashto on not.

Why would a non Pashto speaker have difficulty being hospitable, for example?

I mentioned more than hospitality, your stuck on that single concept. But, for the sake of the argument, how many non-Pashto speakers will die for their guests, even if that guests happens to be an enemy? That sort of "hospitality" is irrational in most parts of the world, but midst Pukhtoon Melmistiya is one step away from Nanawatey.

Your argument is self-defeating. You argue that if anyone can learn Pukhto he might become Pukhtoon, that is not acceptable to you. Yet you say that if Pukhtoonwale is transferable, translatable, you can be a Pukhtoon without Pukhto. In that case, if this transferable, translatable Pukhtoonwale is adopted by someone who doesn't have Pukhtoon genetics (if there is a single source of genetics to begin with), they will become Pukhtoons? If not, why not? What if he comes from the same racial stock as you do, or has the same looks as you do? How does an average Pukhtoon verify if he is a Pukhtoon by BLOOOOOOOD, or can we associate with such an individual just because he/she practices so-called "Pukhtoonale"?

Ridiculous.

Pashtun culture is based around Pashtunwali.

Observant Pashtuns follow this.

That would basically be the culture.

]

Read all of the above.

I agree Pashtuns are not descended from a single person least of all Arabs or Jews or Persians or whatever else.

Why are Pashtun genetics not unique to Pashtuns incidentally?

Because they are not unique. Pukhtoon genetics are shared by various Northern Indian peoples, Iranic peoples, and some amongst Pukhtoons are Turkic and Semitic origin.

The only thing that distinguishes them from the rest of the groups belonging to these stocks is their unique language, and heritage.

I can tell if two Pashtuns are related or not by looking at their faces. Isn't this what lineage is?

So? I come across many Arabs, Turks, Persians, Albanians, Italians, Latins, heck even Indians that look like Pukhtoons. Pukhtoons are constantly mistaken for the above groups. Within my own family there are people with red hair, blue eyes, green eyes, and then we have people with dark hair, dark eyes. I have cousins who look nothing like their parents. Parents both have dark eyes, dark hair, brown skin...yet their children have blue eyes, green eyes, brownish hair. They are not related?

Is it not a legitimate question, rather than a racist one?

It's a very ignorant question to be fair. I don't know if you have lived amongst Pukhtoons, and if you have spent time midst Pukhtoons of back home. If you had, you would have noticed that Pukhtoons come in all shape and sizes. This is what happens when a tribe grows into a nation, and assimilates various different people into its stock. This is happening today to various non-Pukhtoon groups like the Kalash, Banuchi, Kohistani, Nuristani, Kagani, Urmari, Swati. This is why every Pukhtoon tribe has their own unique "ORIGINS" theory.

The Scots are Scotsmen, not Englishmen afaik. They do have their own language, but it's not spoken so much.

It is their language that separates them from the Englishmen isn't it? Scot the language is also considered a variety of the English just so you know. Scots that no longer speak Scottish are hardly "Scots". Go ask a Scot.

Right, but Mongoloid people aren't too different in appearance. So lineage may not matter so much if people all look the same.

What about Pukhtoons, we look no different than most of our neighbors either. What separates us from all these other groups if not our language? Many of them have very similar cultural aspects. Look up Balochi, Nursitanis, Kalashi, Punjabis, Jatts, Rajputs, Kashmiris etc.

So according to your definition anyone can be a Pashtun.

Only with time. Look at all the pictures of Pukhtoon taken during the British era. Look at the images where Pukhtoon sepoy are standing next to Sikhs. See if you can tell a difference.

Tell me who is a Pukhtoon who isn't by looks:

















[





I'll give you a hint, THEY ARE ALL PUKHTOONS.

[Sher Malang]

1, Pashtoonwali
2, Anger
&
3, Naswar

[roadrunner]

roadrunner,
No. Englishmen can be from different racial stocks but their culture is mostly English.

Right. I don't really disagree too much there.

But what does that have to do with what I said?

English is spoken in Scotland, England, Wales, Canada, America, Jamaica, India etc.

These cultures are all different, even though the language of each of these countries is the same. It is English.

The Jamaican culture I wouldn't say is the same as the English culture. Would you?

Or even American culture is the same as English culture?

Or Indian culure the same as Scots culture?

So in what way is language important for the culture?

That is because they adopted the English langauge which is the promoter of the English heritage. Look up language and it's association with culture.

Indians, Welsh, Scots, Irish, are those who still speak their languages, and THAT IS WAY THEY HAVE THEIR UNIQUE CULTURES TODAY BECAUSE THEY SPEAK THEIR LANGUAGES. The day the rest of these Scots, Irish etc. stop speaking their languages and completely assimilate into ENGLISH, that day their identity of SCOT, IRISH etc. dies. That is the IMPORTANCE of language.

The official language of Scotland is Scottish English. It sounds like English. Scottish Gaelic is spoken by a handful of culturalists.

They are completely different languages.

But any Scotsman is going to say he's a Scotsman and not an Englishman.

So for a Scot, language is an irrelevance.

Now here is where it can get confusing. Could a Pashtun be a Scotsman, or when does a Pashtun cross the line into being a Scotsman? Or can a Pashtun do so? What do you think?

"Englishmen" or "English" is not a race. English is a culture and English is a language, which are now adopted by various groups of people from all over the world.

Fine. I don't mind that definition.

English is usually divided into different catergories on the basis of subrace, but they would all be English I suppose.

Melmastiya can be interpreted in English to hospitality, but in Pukhto Melmastiya is more than your simple definition of "hospitality". It has various degrees, one that correlate with Nanawatey.

How would you say Nang, Namus, Ghairat, Lokhay, Tega, Barmeeta etc. translate to in English? These words don't have singular meanings and interpretations. For example Nang, Namus, Ghairat are concepts that are interchangeable, but not applicable in the same manner in certain scenarios.

Nang translates as chivalry or honor.

So if someone is chivalrous or honorable he/she has fulfilled the role of Nang.

How you want to fulfill Nang is up to you. Your interpretation.

There is no literature to say how a Pashtun must fulfill his/her chivalry/honor.

Can you give a specific example of what you mean? They all seem to be obvious in what they mean.

The term "Pashtunwali" does not exist amongst Pukhtoons. Pukhtoons refer to it as Pukhto. Pashtunwali is a fairly new term mostly used by scholars of certain regions to describe the concepts of Pukhto. I have stressed that to you more than once.

Right. But does it really matter?

Let us say that there is no Pashto language. Pashtuns speak Spanish in this hypothetical scenario.

The Pashtunwali, or Pashto, can easily be translated into Spanish and one can follow the Pashtunwali as a Spanish speaker.

The language then becomes of total irrelevance, right?

I mentioned more than hospitality, your stuck on that single concept. But, for the sake of the argument, how many non-Pashto speakers will die for their guests, even if that guests happens to be an enemy? That sort of "hospitality" is irrational in most parts of the world, but midst Pukhtoon Melmistiya is one step away from Nanawatey.

Yes, I agree, Pashtuns are hospitable people.

That was never in any doubt.

However, if you brainwashed a Spaniard and raised him according to Pashtunwali, it would not matter whether he knew Pashto or not. He would be hospitable.

Your argument is self-defeating. You argue that if anyone can learn Pukhto he might become Pukhtoon, that is not acceptable to you.

You're saying that if a Chinaman learns Pashto he can become a Pashtun.

I didn't say whether I agree with that or not.

Is that your position?

Yet you say that if Pukhtoonwale is transferable, translatable, you can be a Pukhtoon without Pukhto. In that case, if this transferable, translatable Pukhtoonwale is adopted by someone who doesn't have Pukhtoon genetics (if there is a single source of genetics to begin with), they will become Pukhtoons? If not, why not? What if he comes from the same racial stock as you do, or has the same looks as you do? How does an average Pukhtoon verify if he is a Pukhtoon by BLOOOOOOOD, or can we associate with such an individual just because he/she practices so-called "Pukhtoonale"?

Ridiculous.

Why can't you be a Pashtun without Pashto?

Just translate the Pashtunwali appropriately and follow the ways of the Pashtun and you will be an observant Pashtun.

Because they are not unique. Pukhtoon genetics are shared by various Northern Indian peoples, Iranic peoples, and some amongst Pukhtoons are Turkic and Semitic origin.

They are? Can you quote me some of this?

I'd be very surprised.

The only thing that distinguishes them from the rest of the groups belonging to these stocks is their unique language, and heritage.

If they have the same genetics and appearance I suppose you're right.

If you have this evidence for either, then it would be nice to see it.

So? I come across many Arabs, Turks, Persians, Albanians, Italians, Latins, heck even Indians that look like Pukhtoons. Pukhtoons are constantly mistaken for the above groups. Within my own family there are people with red hair, blue eyes, green eyes, and then we have people with dark hair, dark eyes. I have cousins who look nothing like their parents. Parents both have dark eyes, dark hair, brown skin...yet their children have blue eyes, green eyes, brownish hair. They are not related?

Right. This does occur.

However, if you plucked out 7 Indians from Uttar Pradesh or somewhere, and plucked out 7 Pashtuns from Zabul, don't you think you'd identify 4 or 5 of them correctly?

The number would probably increase to 7 out of seven if you went into certain regions.

So would you not say there is set of traits that are specific to each region?

It's a very ignorant question to be fair. I don't know if you have lived amongst Pukhtoons, and if you have spent time midst Pukhtoons of back home. If you had, you would have noticed that Pukhtoons come in all shape and sizes. This is what happens when a tribe grows into a nation, and assimilates various different people into its stock. This is happening today to various non-Pukhtoon groups like the Kalash, Banuchi, Kohistani, Nuristani, Kagani, Urmari, Swati. This is why every Pukhtoon tribe has their own unique "ORIGINS" theory.

Certainly assimilation always occurs.

It is their language that separates them from the Englishmen isn't it? Scot the language is also considered a variety of the English just so you know. Scots that no longer speak Scottish are hardly "Scots". Go ask a Scot.

Scots that don't speak Scottish Gaelic are still highly Scottish.

They don't call it English. It's Scottish English, so in a way they're still speaking Scottish.

Americans speak English, but they're American, which is another culture.

What about Pukhtoons, we look no different than most of our neighbors either. What separates us from all these other groups if not our language? Many of them have very similar cultural aspects. Look up Balochi, Nursitanis, Kalashi, Punjabis, Jatts, Rajputs, Kashmiris etc.

Do you really look no different from your neighbours?

I could tell a Pashtun apart from other ethnic groups in quite a few instances, but not all.
I'm sure I could tell a standard Rajput from a standard Pashtun 99% of the time I think.

Only with time. Look at all the pictures of Pukhtoon taken during the British era. Look at the images where Pukhtoon sepoy are standing next to Sikhs. See if you can tell a difference.

Pashtun sepoy next to a Sikh. Which one is that?

Tell me who is a Pukhtoon who isn't by looks:

















[





I'll give you a hint, THEY ARE ALL PUKHTOONS.

Yes they're all Pashtun.

Does it matter that some are different?

Some Somali Africans are a bit lighter than you'd expect.

There are French ethnics that look dark.

Some Scotsmen have darker skin too.

But the French and the Scots do have a set look that the majority share.

Does the same not apply to the Pashtuns?

If it does, what are these set features?

[roadrunner]

roadrunner,
are you irani?

What makes you say that?

[roadrunner]

Like I've said in other threads its only up to the person if he wants to be Pashtun. He can learn Pashto, follow Pashtunwali and I will consider him a Pashtun.

So according to this definition, these are possibly Pashtun people

[roadrunner]

While we do have features, unlike western people, we do not write books about this and spend half our life talking about "features."

This is a very western concept that Pasthuns do not follow. Yes, you can tell who a Pashtun is, but your not going to hear them obsess over this, and even speak of this because they realize they will sound pretty stupid.


Im just wondering if your Irani. Is my guess correct? can you answer that? I guess I nailed that one right? LOL

LOL lots of Iranis talk about this stuff, thats why I was wondering lol

Quite a few Iranians do.

In fact I disagree with most of what they think they are.

[roadrunner]

1, Pashtoonwali
2, Anger
&
3, Naswar

was the naswar a serious attempt at answering the question?

could the anger bit not come from other circumstances?