What constitutes a Pashtun?

[roadrunner]

What part of my list looks harsh?


Welcome to our community by the way.

Lineage, language, and Pashtunwali.

All three.

I think quite a few Pashtuns in Afghanistan would fail to make this grade.

Language they should pass, but are they observant? A large section may fail the Pashtunwali test.

Lineage. Again there might be quite a few that don't pass it.

So the effect multiplies up and you're left with very few Pashtuns.

[Wrayun]

roadrunner;

You are just trolling now.

[roadrunner]

roadrunner;

You are just trolling now.

Why is that?

You say it's language that is important.

I think I gave the example that a Scotsman who speaks Scottish English and not Scottish Gaelic is still considered a Scotsman by himself and other Scots.

So a Pashtun who speaks shall we say Pashtun French and not Pashtun Pashto would still be considered a Pashtun? (Pashtun French is French with some Pashto words occasionally, like Scottish English)

From what I've understood of your argument if the Pashtun is speaking French then he is not a Pashtun.

Yet the Scotsman who speaks English is still considered a Scot. Why the difference?

[Abdali]

Hey mate!

Roadrunner, I extend my warmest greetings to you. Lets get to Bizzo. I don't want to begin with pork pies but I shall be honest with you. A Pashtun is one who has the blood and that is all that matters in describing a Pashtun. But that isn't all that matters, language and culture is also important to integrate into the ethnic group mate. Are you a Pashtun? Reckon!

[roadrunner]

Hey mate!

Roadrunner, I extend my warmest greetings to you. Lets get to Bizzo. I don't want to begin with pork pies but I shall be honest with you. A Pashtun is one who has the blood and that is all that matters in describing a Pashtun. But that isn't all that matters, language and culture is also important to integrate into the ethnic group mate. Are you a Pashtun? Reckon!

Certainly pork pies would not help solve the original question.

So it's mainly blood or lineage according to you.

So language and culture helps integrate you into Pashtun society, but is not a requirement to be a Pashtun?

It sounds fair enough.

So Pashtun by lineage would mean some common physical and other genetic traits.

[roadrunner]

How about accent?

Is it true that Scotsmen all have a Scottish accent?

Is accent important in defining a Pashtun?

If a Scotsmen migrates to France, his descendants become French of Scottish heritage.

They don't have a Scottish accent of course.

So ethnically would they remain Scottish? If so, what would it take for them to become French?

[pukhtana]

The answer to your question is MANY things constitute a Pashtun, if one element is missing, It does not void his right to be a Pashtun.

[Wrayun]

Why is that?

You say it's language that is important.

I think I gave the example that a Scotsman who speaks Scottish English and not Scottish Gaelic is still considered a Scotsman by himself and other Scots.

Yet the Scotsman who speaks English is still considered a Scot. Why the difference?

You know the funny thing is that you keep answering yourself without even realizing it.

Let us dissect the issue.

Scottish English: Is English that is considered related to the Scots language. In fact Scots language itself is considered an older type of English.

Scottish Gaelic: Gaelic is a Celtic language, and not really Scottish. The Scottish part here come from the fact that this specific dialect of Gaelic is spoken in Scottish areas. For example if Punjaabi language was spoken in Afghanistan, it would be called Afghani Punjaabi, not because Punjaabi originates in Afghanistan but because of the fact that it is spoken within the boundary of Afghanistan.

So why is a Scottish English considered a Scot, but a Scottish Gaelic isn't?

I think that is an absurd question to even ask after the above explanation. It is the ELEMENT of the ORIGINAL Scottish language, and the similarity of the ORIGINAL Scottish language with English, that makes a Scottish English a Scot. While Scottish Gaelic is completely different from the ORIGINAL Scottish language, and has no elements of the ORIGINAL Scottish language in it.

Therefore we can now CONCLUDE, that it is the element of ORIGINAL Scottish language within Scottish English that makes it distinguishable from Scottish Gaelic (Which has neither).

So a Pashtun who speaks shall we say Pashtun French and not Pashtun Pashto would still be considered a Pashtun? (Pashtun French is French with some Pashto words occasionally, like Scottish English)

Your Pukhto French example is yet another self-defeating one. The fact that this French has elements of Pukhto in it makes it possible to be recognized as distinguishable from French itself. While a Pukhtoon who is French i.e. by birth, speaks only pure French with no elements of Pukhto in his language, can not!

So, we then conclude that what separates Pukhtoon French (French with Pukhto elements) from a normal French is the element of Pukhto in his language. The same way it will separate a Pukhtoon born and raised in France, or speaks French, with no Pukhto elements in his/her language.

Again, the important factor is the PUKHTO language here, no matter how little.

From what I've understood of your argument if the Pashtun is speaking French then he is not a Pashtun.

Good ploy on the wording. A Pukhtoon that only speaks French with no elements of Pukhto at all is NOT A PUKHTOON, but a FRENCH. Your original assumption is that a PUKHTOON FRENCH is something with both FRENCH and PUKHTO admixture. That is completely different than someone who ONLY SPEAKS FRENCH.

You keep beating this dead horse i.e. Pukhtoon = race, NOT! French = race, NOT! English = race, NOT!

Granted that the racial factor can't be ignored because Pukhtoons are expected to look a certain way, though without the Pukhto language, those looks are no different then the Tajiks, Persian, Arabs, Turks, Punjabis, Kashmiris etc. Google Pukhtoon DNA, compare it with all the other groups. Try Wiki.

There are 3 main racail groups that all people can be categorized under.

Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid. Pukhtoons are predominately Caucasoid, so are Turks, Tajiks, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Punjabis, Kashmiris, and various other groups (with a few exceptions). What distinguishes them from the rest of these groups? IT IS PUKHTO, their language, IT IS PUKHTO, their culture. Not their unique looks. There is no such thing as a UNIQUE look. We don't live on an isolated island. We live in an area surrounded by various different groups.


My last post to address this silliness.

Have fun.

[Master Khan]

lol look If you can't speak Pashto then you are not really a full pashtun, yes Blood is important but Langauge is important aswell.
If a English guy can't speak English then whats the point of him calling himself english.

Language is really important, its what brings us together, without Language our culture will slowly die.

its like a computer without a monitor..it just won't don't work.

[roadrunner]

Scottish English: Is English that is considered related to the Scots language. In fact Scots language itself is considered an older type of English.

The Scots original language is Gaelic.

Gaelic is a Celtic language. English is a Germanic language

The two are not related to each other.

Scottish Gaelic: Gaelic is a Celtic language, and not really Scottish.

No.

Scottish Gaelic is the original language of the Scots.

It comes from Gaelte which refers to Gaul (modern France).

The Celtic tribes that lived there spoke ancient Gaelic and migrated into Scotland.

There was no English at this time in Britainnia (Britain).

English came later with the arrival of the Frisians from Saxony (the Anglo Saxons)

The Scottish part here come from the fact that this specific dialect of Gaelic is spoken in Scottish areas. For example if Punjaabi language was spoken in Afghanistan, it would be called Afghani Punjaabi, not because Punjaabi originates in Afghanistan but because of the fact that it is spoken within the boundary of Afghanistan.

Right. So Scottish Gaelic has some slang that is different to Irish Gaelic.

So why is a Scottish English considered a Scot, but a Scottish Gaelic isn't?

Scottish Gaelic is considered the original Scottish language, not English.

Scottish English is considered to be a non Celtic language.

Scotland traces its history from Roman times when the Gaeltae Celts migrated into Scotland.

After this these Scots became Anglicized under the British Empire.

Currently Scottish Gaelic is spoken in some of the small islands, but the majority of Scotland speaks Scottish English.

Scottish English is just English.

I think that is an absurd question to even ask after the above explanation. It is the ELEMENT of the ORIGINAL Scottish language, and the similarity of the ORIGINAL Scottish language with English, that makes a Scottish English a Scot. While Scottish Gaelic is completely different from the ORIGINAL Scottish language, and has no elements of the ORIGINAL Scottish language in it.

Read above.

The original Scottish language is Gaelic, not English.

Therefore we can now CONCLUDE, that it is the element of ORIGINAL Scottish language within Scottish English that makes it distinguishable from Scottish Gaelic (Which has neither).

Scottish Gaelic is completely different to Scottish English.

There's virtually no Gaelic in Scottish English.

Scottish English is just English, a Germanic language, spoken with a Scottish accent.

Your Pukhto French example is yet another self-defeating one. The fact that this French has elements of Pukhto in it makes it possible to be recognized as distinguishable from French itself. While a Pukhtoon who is French i.e. by birth, speaks only pure French with no elements of Pukhto in his language, can not!

So, we then conclude that what separates Pukhtoon French (French with Pukhto elements) from a normal French is the element of Pukhto in his language. The same way it will separate a Pukhtoon born and raised in France, or speaks French, with no Pukhto elements in his/her language.

Again, the important factor is the PUKHTO language here, no matter how little.

So because a person says, comment ca va wrora, then this is the important thing that makes them a Pashtun?

Even if wrora is the only Pashto word that they know?

Good ploy on the wording. A Pukhtoon that only speaks French with no elements of Pukhto at all is NOT A PUKHTOON, but a FRENCH. Your original assumption is that a PUKHTOON FRENCH is something with both FRENCH and PUKHTO admixture. That is completely different than someone who ONLY SPEAKS FRENCH.

So if the only word someone knew of Pashto was wrora, and they put this at the end of all their French phrases, that would be the essence of a Pashtun is what you're saying?

You keep beating this dead horse i.e. Pukhtoon = race, NOT! French = race, NOT! English = race, NOT!

Granted that the racial factor can't be ignored because Pukhtoons are expected to look a certain way, though without the Pukhto language, those looks are no different then the Tajiks, Persian, Arabs, Turks, Punjabis, Kashmiris etc. Google Pukhtoon DNA, compare it with all the other groups. Try Wiki.

I put it to you that those DNA results don't prove anything about the genetic makeup of an individual.

Would you believe this statement?

There are 3 main racail groups that all people can be categorized under.

Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid. Pukhtoons are predominately Caucasoid, so are Turks, Tajiks, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Punjabis, Kashmiris, and various other groups (with a few exceptions). What distinguishes them from the rest of these groups? IT IS PUKHTO, their language, IT IS PUKHTO, their culture. Not their unique looks. There is no such thing as a UNIQUE look. We don't live on an isolated island. We live in an area surrounded by various different groups.

Would you agree that two populations of caucasoid people can differ from each other on the basis of skull measurements, for example?

Welsh Celts are thought to be darker in appearance than Scottish Celts as another example.

It is a set of features that when one sees one automatically thinks Celt, or Finn.

They all might be caucasoid though.

[roadrunner]

I don't understand what your trying to prove? Like, you have been given the answers that you have requested, but you seem to what to push your reasoning of thought to Pashtuns. WHy? What difference does it make to you?

I've been given different ideas of what people think a Pashtun is. Some seem fairly good.

Some say it's language alone, some lineage and language, some lineage alone, some culture etc.

Perhaps there is no real definition of a Pashtun which is probably the same as any other ethnic group in the world. Perhaps there is.

But when you see someone, sometimes, you think this feature is common to some ethnic groups.

If you say culture, what would these cultural common things be? I've heard anger, but I think that is wrong. Anger comes from other things usually. Pashtunwali? Alright, but not all Pashtuns are observant Pashtunwali followers. They are still Pashtun I think though.

What people seem to be saying is if you're missing the cultural aspect, you can still be Pashtun if your lineage is Pashtun, for example.

That's alright too.

But lineage also would need to mean something. If it means that the father of the Pashtun must be a Pashtun, but the mother can be anything. This means that this might be a Pashtun, if his father was Pashtun, but married a Korean.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Roadrunner Pashtuns themselves are quite aware of what or who a Pashtun is. If anything I suggest you go visit Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan, you will know clearly who Pashtuns are and who the other communnities are. The proof is in the pudding. BTW which part of Pashtunkhwa/Afghanistan are you from? Which tribe? Manana

[roadrunner]

unknownprince,

Even if it were that i had fallen in love with a Pashtun girl but could not get anywhere, I don't think I'd come on an internet forum to try and disparage Pashtuns because of it.

People are entitled to their beliefs of course, and if the half Pashtun feels Pashtun, then that's the main definition that would matter.

I'm posing a question in order to get some new ideas.

I need not have any agenda in doing so.

If you don't like the question, then there's no need to comment.

Personally, i find it's an interesting topic.

[roadrunner]

Everyone has said lineage means something. Blood and Pashtunwali, nothing else!!!! It seems like you are arguing with yourself.

Right these things are the important things.

Therefore if Gary Coleman followed the Pashtunwali, and had a Pashtun father, then he would be a Pashtun.

I get that.

You originally said that it was not possible.

You see how discussing things can help?

People have addressed all your questions and most have told you pashtun identity is blood and pashtunwali adherence.
Yes, if this boy's father was Pashtun, he would be Pashtun. If Gary Coleman's father was pashtun, he would be pashtun. Everyone has told you this over and over again, but you seem to not want to accept it. Is there a Pashtun you know that you are trying to delegitimize haha?

Now, on the other hand, if the boys father was a non-Pashtun, lets say African, European, or Korean, he would not be a Pashtun whatsoever. Thats pretty straight forward. And about 10 people have told you this.

This is where your argument fails.

The boys father can be an African or a Korean.

Because a boy's father only needs to be a Pashtun, the maternal lineage can make the boy a Korean.

I'll admit it's not a common site.

But according to your definition, it is a possibility.

You still have not answered my original question. Why are you trying to push forward a western concept of identity to Pashtuns?

What western concept would that be?

Something that you should note is that Pashtuns rarely ever marry non-Pashtuns (both males and females) It is pretty strict there.

I think people don't discuss feature because they don't want to look like a dumb ass. I mean what do want to hear, "that you could look like a Pashtun," and then maybe pass as one?

What's dumb about discussing the features of groups of people?

People do it all the time.

Similar features will not get someone to be considered a Pashtun (i have still yet to see a people that look like us). Pashtuns don't even think of this. Your either are Pashtun by blood, or your not a PAshtun. There is no way of becoming a Pashtun, like there is no way of becoming european, african, , chinese, arab, or Irani if someone is not the aforementioned.

Except Gary Coleman possibly could be if he had one father in his lineage that was Pashtun (with the one father definition of lineage).

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner Pashtuns themselves are quite aware of what or who a Pashtun is. If anything I suggest you go visit Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan, you will know clearly who Pashtuns are and who the other communnities are. The proof is in the pudding. BTW which part of Pashtunkhwa/Afghanistan are you from? Which tribe? Manana

Yes. Clearly that would be best to ask real and verifiable Pashtuns instead of using the internet.