What constitutes a Pashtun?

[Nick]

But needless to say I would love to agree with you only if I was a pashtun as well. Cause Hey I wanna take some pride in this name "Pashtun". Unfortunately history does not tell everything, based on few facts as well as Folklore and non-Islam books we have learned that this "Time-frame" of these people called Pashtuns, does not go beyond 14th century.

3 reasons why.
a) They were mostly pro-Islamic/Mystic/sufi, and non-nationalists, perhaps a reminder that our first nationalist, and country loving person may Allah bless his sould was Pir Roshan. I am very founded of him and his work, I did some reason but due lack of my understanding of Pashtu I still have alot to learn.

b) The Language they spoke was considered "Haram" this is famous and well known amongst Dari poets who have read about an ancient language in Khorasan that was still strong, and itwas considered language of Hell. Educated Afghans are well aware that this was probably either 100 yeras after Khalfa Khalid's death or right during the time of early short lived Suri Dynasty king Amir Ghoror's era. Now Suri were a major power when Arabs attack Persia, Suri tribe was involved in killing Kousrow that made Arab job much easier. We know for the fact that from Palavi kufari history book which was translated by Ferdowsi combined with works of other Islamic Arab/Afghan/Balkhi historians that completed his book called "Shahnameh". According to Ferdowsi Suri tribe had full control of Khorasan and that a young Suri leader Mahey Suri came in power after death of his Father, and he killed king Khusrow, took his wealth as booty and land, ruled until he surrounded to Arabs. According to Arab sources Suri king was killed by men of Persian royal family and escape to Turkistan (Modern Tajikistan was known as Gates of Chin to Arabs). However according to Ferdowsi Mahey was killed by King of China who was a friend to Khosrow and revenge to his death. According to Zardastians Mayey Suri was a slave of Arabs and he sold his loyalty to Arabs just to rule and his death came after declined to be converted. So its hard to judge how powerful these Suri (Ghuri) tribes were. But I would strong enough that our Amir Ghoror might of been the grandson of Mahey Suri.

c) Continuous wars between Turkic Suljak, Shia Khawarizam and Mongolian invasion has really damaged the works of many historians and records are missing one example is history of Beyhaqi almost 80% of Islamic scholars agree that his Book has been touch aside from that from his original book pages are missing and that only 25% remained, somehow shoved in book shelves. My point is that either during Safivads or during Mongolian era when Shiism was at its peak in power but under Mongolian leaders. The great works of many Sunni scholars and poets have disappeared. Specially regarding Sunni rulers of Khorasan (Afghanistan), tribes as well as languages and cultural knowledge. We know for the fact from 3rd party sources specially Arabic sources who at older times might of copied sources from scholars and historians that was available to them at one time, something which today are no-where to be found and only remain writers names with great respect.

A racial classification is a possibility if enough research is done.



I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Is it that the word "Pashtun" fell out of usage after the 14th century?

Or that the Pashtuns didn't exist beyond the 14th century?

You are not sure what I am saying.

I was giving you my 3 main reason why we have little info in terms of historical reference that we can relay on.
Ok Please don't take it personal but I think your history knowledge is not too strong, otherwise you would not say "Or that the Pashtuns didn't exist beyond the 14th century?" Cause clearly when I mention historical Afghan tribe of Kohzads ie Suri/Ghura Khel ruled Afghanistan for 6-12 years before becoming under Khalafa's protection. Yes I was giving reference to Afghan tribes that which in our times or since 15th century are purely Pashtu speakers and considered Pashtuns. Please read again, I am not saying that tribes within Pashtu demographics never existed beyond the 14th century but rather the word "Pashtun" or the application of the word "Pashtu" on this newly mixture of Islamic and Ancient Afghan language that stem from Pakhtro or Bactrian/Awestic roots, is new latest time frame is 14th century. Please we are not talking Myth if so I have alot of Mythical references, and fairy tale stories but history in professional field has to be connected with dots, few mistakes here and there can be tolerated but if we are off the Hook and say yes there are 45-55 million Pashtu speakings in Asia who are children of one man named Quis LOL does't make sense even a person born in 1000 BCE cannot surpass offsprings with more than 10 million so how was it possible for Quis to have more than 40 million descendants unless otherwise the first 10 generations had 1000 wives and average of 10,000 children surviving lol then we can talk, and say yes it makes sense that a guy named Quis who lived during Mohammad's time is the father of 45 million Pashtuns.

The pashtuns today speak a language that was not as same as 1300 years ago and the pashtun of 1300 Ad did not speak the same language as 500 AD pre-Islamic natives. Without Islamic era I can't even place a word "Pashtun" before Islam.

Yes, the language has changed a bit. It has a lineage also.

a bit LOL you must be joking right? A bit for me is like 1-5% but my dear friend we are talking a whole new language here. English people can say yes "we have a bit of Arabic in our language", We Farsiwans can say yes we have a bit of Turkic in our language. But we Farsiwans cannot say we have a bit of Awestic/Pakhtrian and a bit of Parthian just because 51% is Arabic does not mean we are close to Arabic, the fact that other half is made up of two other major living of that era, cannot make Awestic a bit. In the same equation we have formulate and see what Pashtu can come up with. No language remains pure, even Arabic a languages selected by allah himself proves of this that we as Humans change and our race, languages and culture can change overtime.
Today Arab speakings nations have their own accents and dialects even grammar differences. So nothing old remains pure my friend, keep that in mind when speaking of history and try to stay away from Supremacism to be honest I too sometimes feel proud but allah forbids such feeling. The Islamic ideology of nationalism is different from European ideology of nationalism, I am making reference to Al Afghani's views, that our Islamic society there is love and Harmony, that can only unite us, unlike European society where there is hate and violence, 90 years later Allah approves Al afghani's teaching that yes and Nazism was to be an example.

For all We know is that majority of Pashtu speaking tribes are Native if not 80% at least 60% of these tribes have been in Afghanistan before Cyrus's invasion. I can provide source of some of these tribes that are very much unproven by wikipedia LOL but well known to ancient Greeks and Bulgerians and other non-Afghans sources far before Islam, bearing almost the same name such as Apradas for Afridis or Pactyan for Paktiwals.

You're saying that the Pashtuns always were in Afghanistan?

so what You think the pashtuns came from another Planet? LOL

I would say Pashtuns never invaded Afghanistan because they were always the natives fighting outsiders, being as native as Suri which I mentioned above or others. If you want Genetical prove of such migration and invasion I would say wash your hand on such BS because its not that easy to solve. I was reading somewhere where a genetic research proved that Green Afghan eyes was result of mutation were originally native of hindukush. Now here was it true or false. I have green eyes but not my daughter nor my brothers or my father or uncle, or mother, yes according to my grandfather as he remembers in young age my eyes looked like eyes of his grandfather "wow" is what I said to him. So just because few Afghans does have it does not mean we can claim half of Europe as Afghan and nor we can say that we are decendents of Europeans. Needless to say but Hindukush like environment also exists in some parts of Europe.

I don't think Afghans particularly want to claim Europe as their own.

Fighting off invaders all the time doesn't mean that Pashtuns didn't invade the area themselves.

They might not have invaded, just migrated.

They might not have invaded or migrated, just were there.

Why does genetics not help to know the answer to this?



The tribal societies in Afghanistan and other places seem to have lasted quite a while, havent they?

Pashtuns are Afghans and Afghans are those with ancient tribal affiliation with the boundaries from South of Oxus up to Indian ocean or Indus Valley, and from Iranian deserts up to Kashmir, that dates back from 4000BCE-1000 AD, If not Mythical with 4000BCE at least with Historical documents from 3000 BCE. So Yeah they are not invaders. For you Pashtuns are Pashtuns but for me Pashtuns are Afghans. Now Discover Afghans there is an Answer Discover Pashtuns there is no answer why? because Pashtuns are a linguistic group that demarks and marks the pashtu language dating after 14th century.

[roadrunner]

You are not sure what I am saying.

I was giving you my 3 main reason why we have little info in terms of historical reference that we can relay on.

Ah right.

The lack of historical references isn't necessarily true of the people that are Pashtuns.

I think there's plenty of historical references but there was always a lot of name changing going on.

Things got lost in between.

Ok Please don't take it personal but I think your history knowledge is not too strong, otherwise you would not say "Or that the Pashtuns didn't exist beyond the 14th century?" Cause clearly when I mention historical Afghan tribe of Kohzads ie Suri/Ghura Khel ruled Afghanistan for 6-12 years before becoming under Khalafa's protection. Yes I was giving reference to Afghan tribes that which in our times or since 15th century are purely Pashtu speakers and considered Pashtuns. Please read again, I am not saying that tribes within Pashtu demographics never existed beyond the 14th century but rather the word "Pashtun" or the application of the word "Pashtu" on this newly mixture of Islamic and Ancient Afghan language that stem from Pakhtro or Bactrian/Awestic roots, is new latest time frame is 14th century.

Right. Pashtun and Pashto are recent words that come from an older lineage.

Please we are not talking Myth if so I have alot of Mythical references, and fairy tale stories but history in professional field has to be connected with dots, few mistakes here and there can be tolerated but if we are off the Hook and say yes there are 45-55 million Pashtu speakings in Asia who are children of one man named Quis LOL does't make sense even a person born in 1000 BCE cannot surpass offsprings with more than 10 million so how was it possible for Quis to have more than 40 million descendants unless otherwise the first 10 generations had 1000 wives and average of 10,000 children surviving lol then we can talk, and say yes it makes sense that a guy named Quis who lived during Mohammad's time is the father of 45 million Pashtuns.

Yes, I agree.

The origins of Pashtuns to a single Semitic man is ridiculous.

Why do some people believe it?

a bit LOL you must be joking right? A bit for me is like 1-5% but my dear friend we are talking a whole new language here. English people can say yes "we have a bit of Arabic in our language", We Farsiwans can say yes we have a bit of Turkic in our language. But we Farsiwans cannot say we have a bit of Awestic/Pakhtrian and a bit of Parthian just because 51% is Arabic does not mean we are close to Arabic, the fact that other half is made up of two other major living of that era, cannot make Awestic a bit. In the same equation we have formulate and see what Pashtu can come up with. No language remains pure, even Arabic a languages selected by allah himself proves of this that we as Humans change and our race, languages and culture can change overtime.

All languages have changed. Pashto has a fairly obvious lineage.

Today Arab speakings nations have their own accents and dialects even grammar differences. So nothing old remains pure my friend, keep that in mind when speaking of history and try to stay away from Supremacism to be honest I too sometimes feel proud but allah forbids such feeling. The Islamic ideology of nationalism is different from European ideology of nationalism, I am making reference to Al Afghani's views, that our Islamic society there is love and Harmony, that can only unite us, unlike European society where there is hate and violence, 90 years later Allah approves Al afghani's teaching that yes and Nazism was to be an example.

Sure. Pashto is certainly not the same as the languages it derives from.

But the links are fairly clear.

so what You think the pashtuns came from another Planet? LOL

Certainly not.

Pashtuns are Afghans and Afghans are those with ancient tribal affiliation with the boundaries from South of Oxus up to Indian ocean or Indus Valley, and from Iranian deserts up to Kashmir, that dates back from 4000BCE-1000 AD, If not Mythical with 4000BCE at least with Historical documents from 3000 BCE. So Yeah they are not invaders. For you Pashtuns are Pashtuns but for me Pashtuns are Afghans. Now Discover Afghans there is an Answer Discover Pashtuns there is no answer why? because Pashtuns are a linguistic group that demarks and marks the pashtu language dating after 14th century.

Well from what I know of history, Afghan was the previous name of Pashtuns.

So according to you Pashtuns are a linguistic grouping of people?

[roadrunner]

roadrunner, pashtuns are not a linguistic grouping of people!!!

its what bebe shirini just said!!!!

lol, i give up. Everyone has said the same things a billion times over and over, but you keep wanting to push forward your own definition lol

I'm not pushing any definition through.

Pay attention to this bit.

"I, Roadrunner, do hereby declare, that I have understood that you define the Pashtun as a paternal lineage and linguistic grouping of people, and have understood this since your very first, and the very first post of one or two others on here".

What I then asked was. Alright, let's take your definition of a Pashtun. If Gary Coleman's great grandfather was a Pashtun, and he married a Nigerian woman, their children all married Nigerian women, and Coleman was descended from the paternal line, then Gary Coleman would be a Pashtun if he spoke Pashto.

You seemed to suggest that he wouldn't be a Pashtun, but according to your definition he would be.

But Gary Coleman being a Pashtun is fine.

However, this does present a problem. Doesn't the relevance of paternal lineage then become questionable? Since anyone of the human race can be a Pashtun with no set look as half the genes are maternal, then lineage is in reality unimportant by this definition.

otoh, I don't agree everyone shares your definition of a Pashtun.

You can replace Indian with Nigerian in the definition above, and you'll still have the same outcome. An Indian speaking Pashto is still an Indian and will most likely behave like an Indian. But ethnically, in India, they would consider themselves as a Pashtun, because they speak Pashto (a lot don't actually but still are Pashtun). They would of course be completely Indianized even if they were the strictest and most pure of Pashtuns, because their maternal lineage would be Indian.

So what do these ceremonial token acts of Pashtuneity, such as saying wrora at the end of every sentence really mean? Is this the true definition of being a Pashtun?

[Wrayun]

lulz... You guys are being trolled the crap out of.

you: Hi, Pukhtoons are yellow
roadrunner: No, it's the way light reflects off them
you: But they seem yellow
roadrunner: That's just your eyes playing tricks
you: What color are they to you?
roadrunner: Korea was once a Japanese colony
you: Really I didn't know
roadrunner: So you said Pukhtoons were yellow?
you: Yeah you see because....


newbs!

[roadrunner]

lulz... You guys are being trolled the crap out of.

you: Hi, Pukhtoons are yellow
roadrunner: No, it's the way light reflects off them
you: But they seem yellow
roadrunner: That's just your eyes playing tricks
you: What color are they to you?
roadrunner: Korea was once a Japanese colony
you: Really I didn't know
roadrunner: So you said Pukhtoons were yellow?
you: Yeah you see because....


newbs!

I'm not trolling anyone.

Just because some of us are interested in this one thread, it doesn't mean we are trolling.

What are you doing on this thread, when you stated categorically, that you would play no further part in it?

For someone that's decided enough is enough of this thread, you yourself are doing a fine job of trolling with your "roadrunner is a troll" comments.

If you want to debate, debate. If you want to troll, go on some other thread.

[roadrunner]

lol, i don't understand why roadrunner keeps going on about this!!! I said that pashtuns are unique, However, a person is determined to be a pashtun if their father is. Yes, pashtuns have certain features, but someone who does not look pashtun can still be pashtun if their father is.

Right this is better.

So Pashtun features are unique. What are these features?

One further question. How will Pashtun features be unique if the maternal lineage is irrelevant?

to me it looks like a theory suggesting we are racist is being pushed forward. thats what im feeling right now!!!Im not going to allow someone to suggest we are racist.

i have not asked the same question over and over!!!

You YOURSELF stated in THIS thread that Pashtuns were racist, and I said no they are not.

Not every Pashtun thinks alike.

So far I've seen the main commonality between Pashtuns is saying wrora at the end of sentences.

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner,

A Pashtun is described by his father and his culture.

Yes, people have said this.

So, let's look in some more detail. If a Pashtun is described by his father, then the mother can be anything, Nigerian for example. The child will still be a Pashtun. So lineage isn't really very important. The father's Pashtun lineage will gradually get eroded.

You can observe this with, for example, the Pakhtuns in the different parts of the world. For example, Indian Pathans look like Indians. Is this a Pashtun look, or an Indian look? Which of the two is the Pashtun? Are they brothers perhaps?

[roadrunner]

roadrunner,
there is a way to be absorbed into the pashtun culture, but its a long process i think. Lots of fighters from foreign countries who fought against the soviets did stay and "become pashtun." so it is possible in a way, but it is very rare. You really have to be exceptional in all the ways set forth, and you have to be Muslim. This is probably a 10-20 year process. Okay, I just made the time-frame up. But I thought maybe you should know that there are rare exceptions

That's a bit of a change from your before edited version that talked about the Soviet soldiers that remained behind and immediately seemed to be accepted as Pashtun.

There is a Hollywood made Soviet war film that describes a captured Soviet tank soldier joining ranks with the Pashtuns without any conversion. It was just convenient since their allegiances met.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

roadrunner, even if the kids turn out to look like Tiger Woods, they will be considered Pashtuns. There are Pashtuns with blue eyes and blond hair and there are Pashtuns with very dark skin and heights of no more than 5"5. There are Pashtuns with flat, long and fat noses. There are Pashtuns with Caucasoid and Mongoloid eyes. Being a Pashtun has nothing to do with what you look like.

You can ask a similar question about anyone - who is an Englishman? Someone who speaks English? Someone who speaks English and is white? Someone who speaks English, is white and is a citizen of the UK? That could be a second-generation Pole. Then what is an Englishman? Who is a Persian? Most Persians claim that they came from Ali's family so they're Arabs, not Persians. What constitutes an Arab? These questions are answerable by providing ones opinion because hard facts do not deal with such matters.

For clarity's sake, the Pakistani constitution has defined what is and what isn't a Muslim. There's no such thing for Pashtuns. Different people have different opinions as to what a Pashtun should be but having a Pashtun father or grandfather is considered important in almost all cases. Knowing the language is also key. Eisenhower was German 'by blood' but ended up defeating Germany for the Anglo-Saxons. There are secular Pashtuns and there are religious ones. Some are warlike, others believe in nonviolence. You cannot paint us all the with same brush.

These things aren't blank and white. I hope I've answered your question.

[roadrunner]

roadrunner, even if the kids turn out to look like Tiger Woods, they will be considered Pashtuns. There are Pashtuns with blue eyes and blond hair and there are Pashtuns with very dark skin and heights of no more than 5"5. There are Pashtuns with flat, long and fat noses. There are Pashtuns with Caucasoid and Mongoloid eyes. Being a Pashtun has nothing to do with what you look like.

You can ask a similar question about anyone - who is an Englishman? Someone who speaks English? Someone who speaks English and is white? Someone who speaks English, is white and is a citizen of the UK? That could be a second-generation Pole. Then what is an Englishman? Who is a Persian? Most Persians claim that they came from Ali's family so they're Arabs, not Persians. What constitutes an Arab? These questions are answerable by providing ones opinion because hard facts do not deal with such matters.

For clarity's sake, the Pakistani constitution has defined what is and what isn't a Muslim. There's no such thing for Pashtuns. Different people have different opinions as to what a Pashtun should be but having a Pashtun father or grandfather is considered important in almost all cases. Knowing the language is also key. Eisenhower was German 'by blood' but ended up defeating Germany for the Anglo-Saxons. There are secular Pashtuns and there are religious ones. Some are warlike, others believe in nonviolence. You cannot paint us all the with same brush.

These things aren't blank and white. I hope I've answered your question.

Yes. So in your opinion nothing defines a Pashtun.

[IamDZJ]

A manly moustache... You might as well be a parsiwan with out it.

[roadrunner]

So we're really getting close to finding what makes a Pashtun a Pashtun.

Before anyone says it, we've had father's lineage.

But if you think the father's lineage, then a Pashtun can be anyone potentially, because the mother's lineage can be anything.

Explain then how lineage is important.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

We know what makes a pashtun. I told you before go to pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan and you will see for yourself. We have constituted a nation for more than 1500 years...but you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Yes. So in your opinion nothing defines a Pashtun.

Nope, read my post again. If a person says he is a Pashtun, has a Pashtun father, grandfather or great grandfather and speaks the language, he is a Pashtun. In some cases, people don't speak the language but they will still be considered Pashtuns because of their fathers but as the generations move forward, they will stop being considered Pashtuns.

So we're really getting close to finding what makes a Pashtun a Pashtun.

Actually, we all know who a Pashtun is and who isn't. They're your doubts that need to be satisfied.

Before anyone says it, we've had father's lineage.

But if you think the father's lineage, then a Pashtun can be anyone potentially, because the mother's lineage can be anything.

Explain then how lineage is important.

Firstly, define "lineage". What exactly do you mean by it? And yes, the mother's side/clan/ethnicity is not important at all.

roadrunner, if you would, can you answer a three questions for me?

- What constitutes a Persian (Parsiwaan)?
- What constitutes an Arab?
- What constitutes an Englishman?

We know what makes a pashtun. I told you before go to pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan and you will see for yourself. We have constituted a nation for more than 1500 years...but you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing.

I agree. These things aren't written on marble. There's no formula like x+y+z-ax2= Pashtun that can be applied here. If roadrunner thinks he'll get this, he's mistaken.

Perhaps he can show some honestly here and define who he is and says, for example:

I am roadrunner and I am a Bulgar. X, Y and Z constitute a Bulgar. If you are A, B or C, you are not a Bulgar.

That way, it'll be easier for us to answer his questions to his satisfaction.

[roadrunner]

We know what makes a pashtun. I told you before go to pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan and you will see for yourself. We have constituted a nation for more than 1500 years...but you insist on arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm not arguing with anyone on this thread.

I'm receiving responses, and saying, fine, that is your opinion.

Then I'm seeing if those opinions are valid.

That is anything but argumentation.