pashto was the religion of pashtun before islam.

[یاسمینه]

would pashtuns say pashtun way, why dont pashtun say "our way".

I saw this term (as translation of the word Pashtunwali) in the book written in 1962 by James W. Spain The way of Pathans. Then this translation was repeated in many publications about Pashtuns. Maybe their authors were convinced that Spain had written the truth. He wrote "that the Pushtu word pukhtunwali translates well into English as 'the way of Pathans' is universally agreed."*
Spain was wrong. Not only in my opinion, his translation is at least debatable. Although it still exist in popular opinion.
The distance to what is written in books is always welcome.

*J. Spain, Pathans of the Latter Day, OUP 1995, p. 39.

[Michin Khel]

-wali is a Pashto formative suffux to create abstract nouns (in the same way are created nouns as morwali or wrorwali). So translation of Pashtunwali could be Pashtunity.

There is also a compound verb pashto kawel. I think you all know its meaning.


Pashtuns are one ethnic group, varied group. That's why there are so many Pashto dialects, certain customs vary depending on the region. That's why some Pashtuns thinking about Pashtunity will say Pashtunwali, the others - Pashto.

We pronounce it "waali" not "wali" (like wali khan) i.e wror waali/waalay not wrorwali...
I have never heard any one in my region saying word ''pashtunwali"...we say 'ta che pashto nasta(i.e nishta)'' , we dont say "ta che pashtunwali nasta"....we say "pashto awo islam"...and so on.



I have learnt word pashtunwali from literature and internet...as my dialect is quite unique so i thought it may be the word of standard pashto.....

[یاسمینه]

Luffy, if you want to discuss the exact pronounciation, then better to write in Pashto.
The word Pashtunwali I know is written like پښتونولي [wali] so there is no long 'a' is this word and my transcription in terms of vowel lenght was correct.
Probably there is also another form of writting this word - پښتونوالي - in this case your '-waali' is correct.

ولي and والي are both formative suffixes to create abstract nouns and probably can be used interchangeably.

[khushal]

-wali is a Pashto formative suffux to create abstract nouns (in the same way are created nouns as morwali or wrorwali). So translation of Pashtunwali could be Pashtunity.

There is also a compound verb pashto kawel. I think you all know its meaning.

Pashtuns are one ethnic group, varied group. That's why there are so many Pashto dialects, certain customs vary depending on the region. That's why some Pashtuns thinking about Pashtunity will say Pashtunwali, the others - Pashto.

But its not pashtunity and in wrorwaali(brotherhood) still does not make sense since it does not describe pashtunhood. Pashtunwali is a term given most likely by Persians or Arabs. My personal opinion is the Arabic definition is a correct one. "Wali" meaning protector/custodian/authority and Pashtunwali is the code that is the protector/authority of Pashtuns meaning that the code has actually protected the pashtuns way of life. It is the "crown" of pashtuns.
Wali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But still Pashtuns don't use this term, even Lutz describes it in his thesis as "doing Pashto"(Pashto kawul).
Doing Pashto: Pashtunwali as the Ideal of Honourable Behaviour and Tribal ... - Lutz Rzehak - Google Books

http://aan-afghanistan.com/uploads/20110321LR-Pashtunwali-FINAL.pdf

[Kushan Prince]

But its not pashtunity and in wrorwaali(brotherhood) still does not make sense since it does not describe pashtunhood. Pashtunwali is a term given most likely by Persians or Arabs. My personal opinion is the Arabic definition is a correct one. "Wali" meaning protector/custodian/authority and Pashtunwali is the code that is the protector/authority of Pashtuns meaning that the code has actually protected the pashtuns way of life. It is the "crown" of pashtuns.
Wali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But still Pashtuns don't use this term, even Lutz describes it in his thesis as "doing Pashto"(Pashto kawul).
Doing Pashto: Pashtunwali as the Ideal of Honourable Behaviour and Tribal ... - Lutz Rzehak - Google Books
http://aan-afghanistan.com/uploads/2...wali-FINAL.pdf

How can that Wali be used with the Pashto variant of Wali? You know some words that look or are similar can have different meanings and are in no way related to one another right?

[یاسمینه]

But its not pashtunity and in wrorwaali(brotherhood) still does not make sense since it does not describe pashtunhood.
Well, maybe the word 'Pashtunwali' can't be properly translate to English or any other language. It often hsppens.
Another thing - suffixes rarely have their own meannings as separate "beings". But they give meanings to other words. I am not sure if you understand it.
Pashtunwali is a term given most likely by Persians or Arabs. My personal opinion is the Arabic definition is a correct one. "Wali" meaning protector/custodian/authority and Pashtunwali is the code that is the protector/authority of Pashtuns meaning that the code has actually protected the pashtuns way of life. It is the "crown" of pashtuns.
Wali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Have you ever heard that one word can have few different meanings in different languages? Sometimes it happens even in the same language. Conclusions about the origin of words solely on the basis of their sound or other false similarities is called in linguistic 'folk ethymology". Knowledge of historical grammar and lingustic processes help to determine the origins with higher probablility than folk etymology.

But still Pashtuns don't use this term, even Lutz describes it in his thesis as "doing Pashto"(Pashto kawul).
Lutz Rzehak is not a Pashtun. My professor, also non Pashtun who lived in Afghanistan, wrote about 'Pashtunwali'. So one Westerner writes 'doing Pashto', another 'Pashtunwali'. Every one writes according to his/her own experience.

I know two books written few decades ago in Pashto, by native Pashtuns living in Afghanistan, where you can find the word 'Pashtunwali'. More, this word appears in their titles. One of them is Pashtunwali writen by Kiyam ad-Din Khadim. It is in the Kitabtoon, maybe you should read the Preface. Then you will find how Chadim Pashtun from Afghanistan, writes about Pashtunwali. As I remember he writes about "sweet word Pashtunwali"... If you want, I can translate this paragraph for you.

I also often talk about Pashtunwali with my Pashtun friend from Afghanistan. He lived in many Pashtun areas and he never mentioned that the word 'Pashtunwali' is not native to Pashtun culture.
Who knows, maybe 'Pashtunwali' is more sophisticated form? But according to my experience both forms 'Pashtunwali' and 'Pashto kawel' are used by Pashtuns.

I wrote my arguments, but of course you can still think what you want

[یاسمینه]

But still Pashtuns don't use this term

Khushal, especially for you
I hope you don't need translation. It's written in Pashto by a Pashtun so I have no reason not to believe him.
This quotation is from Pashtunwali by Kiyam ad-Din Chadim, p. 9-10.

په دې موضوع کښی ړومبۍ خبره چه پښتانه ورباندې د نورو قومو څخه ممتاز شوی دی هغه دا ده چه دوی د خپلو ملیاتو او روایاتو سره زیاته مینه او ډېره دلچسپی او پوره عشق لری ځکه چه دوی دغه پورته ټول عنوانونه د ډېراهمیت په وجه چه دوی ئې ورکوی په خپلو ژبه کښی رالنډ کړی دی او یوه کلمه ئی ورته وضع کړېده او د هغی کلمه زښت زیات احترام او لحاظ کوی ګویا دغه د دوی د ژوند نصب العین دی!

دغه کلمه څه ده؟ د (پښتنولۍ) خوږه کلمه ده د پښتون په نز د پښتنولۍ داسې یوه کلمه ده چه په دې کښی هغه ټول شیان پراته دې چه د دوی د قومی روح او تاریخی عظمت او ملی روایاتو بیخ او اساس شمېرل کېږی

[khushal]

Yasmina,
I think you misunderstood me. My point was that "pashtunwali" definition as "the way of pashtuns" is wrong as Kushan was stating. "Wali" definition is "authority" or the "governing authority" and if you look at the term "pashtunwali," it would tell you that the pashto's code or pashtos law which is what pashtuns follow, especially in rural areas where there is no governing body, is the governing body in those areas. The governing body would be a set of laws described in Pashtunwali(the "Wali" or "authority" of pashtuns).
Its like saying the "Bill or Rights" is Americanwali because the Bill of Rights is not "the way of Americans" but its the authority of Americans. Its what governs Americans.

As for your other point, I agree with you that the term "pashtunwali" is more of a sophisticated term and is only known and used in literate circles. Like Luffy, I first heard about this term in literature and with literate people I and others pashtuns I converse with use the term with each other but if I go to my village, most people would not know this term, I would have to say "Pashto waka" or "pashto kawul" or pashto kanun(law).
So authors, whether they are pashtun or not, do use the term pashtunwali because it is correct in literature and its definition is proper but people do not use it rural areas.

[یاسمینه]

Yasmina,
I think you misunderstood me. My point was that "pashtunwali" definition as "the way of pashtuns" is wrong as Kushan was stating.
Yes, it is wrong because does not cover all possible interpretations (seem one of my posts above). In fact there is no one definition of Pashtunwali. Semantic range of this term is very large. Did you get the chance to read the Pashto text by Muhammad Gul Chan Momand Landakey au pastenwaala? It says a lot about the semantic range of the term of Pashtunwali.
"Wali" definition is "authority" or the "governing authority" and if you look at the term "pashtunwali," it would tell you that the pashto's code or pashtos law which is what pashtuns follow, especially in rural areas where there is no governing body, is the governing body in those areas. The governing body would be a set of laws described in Pashtunwali(the "Wali" or "authority" of pashtuns).
Wali in Pastunwali is a suffix; it has nothing to do with arabic word. Even if it fits your beliefs, it is still folk etymology. But you can interpret it as you want.
Its like saying the "Bill or Rights" is Americanwali because the Bill of Rights is not "the way of Americans" but its the authority of Americans. Its what Americans follow.

As for your other point, I agree with you that the term "pashtunwali" is more of a sophisticated term and is only known and used in literate circles. Like Luffy, I first heard about this term in literature and with literate people I and others pashtuns I converse with use the term with each other but if I go to my village, most people would not know this term, I would have to say "Pashto waka" or "pashto kawul" or pashto kanun(law).
So authors, whether they are pashtun or not, do use the term pashtunwali because it is correct in literature and its definition is proper but people do not use it rural areas.
You wrote "it is not used by Pashtuns" - for me it means that in your opinion, thie word is not used by Pashtuns at all, regardless their background. Maybe you should express yourself more accurate?
In my opinion it not fair that when you write "Pashtuns" you mean just uneducated Pashtuns. It is oversimplification. I do not deny that Afghanistan is struggling with literacy. There were and there are many educated Pashtuns living in Afghanistan and Pakistan who have contributed to their country. Don't forget about them

[khushal]

No Yasmina, I am not talking about the education level, I mean rural Pashtuns whether they are educated or not. They dont use the word pashtunwali. I also think you err when you say that "wali" in pashtunwali is a suffix and you gave the example of wrorwaali(brotherhood) which has a different meaning and if you give the same suffix meaning as wrorwaali it would not be describing the governing laws of Pashto it would more describe the relationship of Pashtuns like brotherhood describes the relationship of men meaning the men are like brothers.

[یاسمینه]

Khushal, do you have any sources supporting your interpretation?
My arguments comes from Pashto linguists, but not only.

Ps. Thank you for the decent conversation

[یاسمینه]

Yasmina,
I think you misunderstood me. My point was that "pashtunwali" definition as "the way of pashtuns" is wrong as Kushan was stating. "Wali" definition is "authority" or the "governing authority" and if you look at the term "pashtunwali," it would tell you that the pashto's code or pashtos law which is what pashtuns follow, especially in rural areas where there is no governing body, is the governing body in those areas. The governing body would be a set of laws described in Pashtunwali(the "Wali" or "authority" of pashtuns).

You insist that wali is a word coming from Arabic language.
I have two questions:1. what is, in your opinion, correct wersion of writting Pashtunwali in Pashto: پښتونولي or پښتونوالي ? I say that both are correct and that both suffixes ( ولي and والي )are used in abstract nouns.

Now let's see what the Steingass's A Comprehensive Persian - English Dictionary says about the word wali.
1. والی - a prince, governor of a province; one who exercises gurisdiction or authority, a chief magistrate; a friend.
2. ولی - nearness, a favurite of God or the king; a sincere friend; a helper, guardian, defender; a prince, lord, president, governor, judge; a servant, slave; a saint, a holy man.

2. Which one wali, in your opinion, is in the word Pashtunwali?

[khushal]

I dont know the correct version Yasmina because we don't use this word but in literature both could be correct. In Farsi they write Governor the (1) way and in Arabic the (2) way so I think the two have the same meaning and pronunciation has to do with different dialects. Thats according to the dictionary Im using but you could correct me on that.

Pashtuns dont use this term when they discuss pashto laws in disputes or pashto mannerisms in everyday conversations.

[Kushan Prince]

I dont know the correct version Yasmina because we don't use this word but in literature both could be correct. In Farsi they write Governor the (1) way and in Arabic the (2) way so I think the two have the same meaning and pronunciation has to do with different dialects.

Pashtuns dont use this term when they discuss pashto laws in disputes or pashto mannerisms in everyday conversations.

Khushal,

Like I said its all about dialect and region. For instance my family has never used the term "Pakhto" to refer to pashtunwali nor has anyone in my village. We have always referred to it as Pakhtunwali. I don't believe that pashtuns refered to out as Pakhto because that sounds like you are referring to the language.

[Admin Khan]

Khushal,

Like I said its all about dialect and region. For instance my family has never used the term "Pakhto" to refer to pashtunwali nor has anyone in my village. We have always referred to it as Pakhtunwali. I don't believe that pashtuns refered to out as Pakhto because that sounds like you are referring to the language.

Read the bold, then read the red. You answered your own query.