current state of Pashtun women in Pashtun society

[Musafira]

Tor Khan
With all due respect the concerns of a Pashtun man are different than those of a Pashtun woman. No doubt there are also women of other ethnicities that these bad things happen to and that is a shame but we have a special place in our heart for the suppression & mistreatment of Pashtun women. Of course we know there are many many very educated, well respected Pashtun women but the majority of Pashtun women do not have these opportunities. This is not a stereotype but rather a reality.

[tor_khan]

Tor Khan
With all due respect the concerns of a Pashtun man are different than those of a Pashtun woman. No doubt there are also women of other ethnicities that these bad things happen to and that is a shame but we have a special place in our heart for the suppression & mistreatment of Pashtun women. Of course we know there are many many very educated, well respected Pashtun women but the majority of Pashtun women do not have these opportunities. This is not a stereotype but rather a reality.

Pishoo Jan, you are very right, many (the majority) of women do not have opportunities. Similarly, in fact, neither do the majority of men.

The issue - as you describe - with regards to the matter of suppression and mistreatment, is real. But they are not Pashtoon issues alone.

Consider the reality - typically we are portrayed as little better than cavemen and at this time, the most vilified, despised and feared men on this planet are Pashtoon. The fictitious war on terror is just one example of this fear of Pashtoon men.

The simple solution is education, but educated Pashtoon men don't buy into the false promises of the west or the neighbouring powers and thus, it is easier to keep the majority of men in ignorance and to pertuate the cycle of manipulation and fear.

We, of all people, shouldn't add to that.

[tor_khan]

I don't feel I am adding to anything wrong because what I said is reality and I was very careful to say this mistreatment of women happens in other groups & not just Pashtuns. I am sorry if you don't understand where Qrratugai is coming from but I agree with her about this & I too sometimes get upset and worry about some of those same things. The world through a woman's eyes is different than from a mans. If this needs further discussion perhaps we need a new separate topic because we are getting away from Muslima's original topic

Without totally de-railing Muslimah's thread, you do bring up some valid points.This may require you to set up a thread to explore some of this, because the one thing I agree with is that men and women do have different eyes through which they see the world.

However, much of this discussion could end up being about personal experiences, which whilst valid may do nothing for the 'plight' or so of Pashtoon women in the homeland, which I believe is inextricably connected to the plight of Pashtoon men.

There are problems, yes, but there is no way that I will accept the warped view that Pashtoon men are so totally seperate from Pashtoon women that one has to be the enemy whilst the other the victim.

[Feroza_Banu]

status of a woman in pashtun society is well reflected in Mullah Bijligar's sermons... he does have more than a million male fans who follow his sermons and nod to what he says.


from my personal experience of being from a family of pashtoon from both sides (mom and dad) growing up in pakistan/afghanistan and travelling to more than 9 countries... i would like to disagree... i think the topic should be about status of a woman in pashtoon household... society is farrrrrrrrrrr farrrrrrrrr away... let's discuss what status pashtoon women have in their household...

i would also like to point out that major cities don't represent the heartland of pashtoons, ... men living in major cities are influenced by city life style... nonetheless i am not trying to say that pashtoon women in major cities have the best of status in their household and in society but comparatively it is better than countrysides...

[Musafira]

Without totally de-railing Muslimah's thread, you do bring up some valid points.This may require you to set up a thread to explore some of this, because the one thing I agree with is that men and women do have different eyes through which they see the world.

However, much of this discussion could end up being about personal experiences, which whilst valid may do nothing for the 'plight' or so of Pashtoon women in the homeland, which I believe is inextricably connected to the plight of Pashtoon men.

There are problems, yes, but there is no way that I will accept the warped view that Pashtoon men are so totally seperate from Pashtoon women that one has to be the enemy whilst the other the victim.

Please point out where I EVER said Pashtun men are the enemy? I never said that & I am sorry you feel I implied that somewhere but I do not think I did. People on this forum seem VERY quick to attack & assume things about people here. It has nothing to do with being enemies but rather about oportunities and education for BOTH.

[Feroza_Banu]

i don't think there is a need for any organizations or association... it will be named a "kafir organization" as soon as it opens... i think we need to work on men, educate them, stand up for our rights. the change can happen, every woman has to start at their own household. we don't need to create a group to separate men and women in a battle field, we need to bring them together in a way that they can respect each other as a human being... men are not supposed to see women as enemies... men are to see women as another individual just like themselves...

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^What do you think if we teach them how to apply the Holy Quran?

[Feroza_Banu]

^that would be a good start. i consider Islam to be a religion that gives women ALOT of rights... even more than men.

but for women to learn how to find out about how much right they have under Islam, they have to be educated enough. which sadly is not the case... they are not educated they can't educate men either... for alot of pashtoon women being treated like a second class citizen is the best they deserve... thats the limit of their mentality.

[tor_khan]

Please point out where I EVER said Pashtun men are the enemy? I never said that & I am sorry you feel I implied that somewhere but I do not think I did. People on this forum seem VERY quick to attack & assume things about people here. It has nothing to do with being enemies but rather about oportunities and education for BOTH.

I took the suggestion of splitting/setting up a new thread, and this is the bit where for now, I exit from the debate.

I'll pass it over to the ladies in the forum who may wish to explore their thoughts.

Just a word on your response to my post. The last part was a something of generalisation. I'm not sure who you meant by "people", but if you meant me, then nothing I said was an attack or an assumption. I had already stated that personal perspectives were more likely to dominate this particular thread. They are valid too.

You did begin with countering a statement that I had made in the originator thread and my response was that fates of Pashtoon men and Pashtoon women, despite the differences, remain inextricably linked.

Like I say, I'm out for now - I think other people may bring other ideas to this line of thought.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^that would be a good start. i consider Islam to be a religion that gives women ALOT of rights... even more than men.

but for women to learn how to find out about how much right they have under Islam, they have to be educated enough. which sadly is not the case... they are not educated they can't educate men either... for alot of pashtoon women being treated like a second class citizen is the best they deserve... thats the limit of their mentality.

Thank you for sharing your opinions.

I think that men have to be educated first. We have to unshackle our men from the grips of blind and misleading scholars.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

But my view is that we need proper Islam being taught to our men and women.

If our men learn proper Islam and women rights, most of this will be eliminated.

Yes!

[Shayesta]

There are even times when women are as guilty or even more guilty than men, dear everyone. Women usually have been mistreated themselves and instead of learning from their past and prevent such happenings on their daughters and daughters-in-law, they actually can't bare see other women happy and wish others exactly same misfortune. It's just that physically women ain't that strong like men are, otherwise mothers-in-law in Afghanistan today would have eaten their daughters-in-law alive. Illiteracy doesn't mean jahiliyat and wahshiyat and not only Pukhtoons are illiterate........

[Roshina]

Does the average Pukhtun girl have access to the computer or internet?
Can the average Pukhtun girl read and write difficult material, know how to express an opinion of hers?
Where does the average Pukhtun girl live?

We here are sitting online, expressing our views and talking to members of the opposite gender; what would a Pukhtun girl raised in a village who is taught that this is haraam think of us?

Do we really have the right to speak for other people?

Most PF members are raised and educated outside of Pukhtunkhwa and Afghanistan (often in the west, to be exact); does the average Pukhtun girl have the same opportunities that we do?

And I have to agree with Tor Khan there. It's not just women who suffer; men suffer as well, because it's not always men who mistreat us. It's society in the general, which includes women. For instance, mothers-in-law tend to treat their daughters-in-law VERY badly (again, this is a reality for a lot of women, not even just Pukhtuns). It's more like a way of taking out their bitterness and anger on other women who are in their power, because they themselves were mistreated when they were daughters-in-law. It's a brutal cycle that never stops because in order for it to stop, a daughter-in-law growing into a mother-in-law has to think something like:

"I was mistreated, and I hated my life because of my mother- and sisters-in-law. I wish they'd been kinder to me. And, so, I should not mistreat MY daughters-in-law so that other women don't suffer the same way I did."

It's just like that one story of the two brothers who were raised by an abusive father. One brother grew up to be a successful banker (or a businessman, not sure exactly), and the other brother grew up to be a thief and was imprisoned. Of course, one wonders why two bothers raised in the same family would lead such different lifestyles, so when they were being interviewed, the successful one said, "When I was a child, my father used to beat me and my brother up a lot. He was really bad to us. So I vowed that when I grow up, I'm going to be nothing like him; I'm going to be better." The other brother said, "When I was a child, my father used to beat me and my brother up a lot. He was really bad to us. So now, I have to take revenge on someone else. If my father could do it to me, I can do it to someone else. Why not?"

Needless to remind us, we are generally very poor. Of course - what else can you expect from a people who are victims of constant war and violence? Not all of us can afford education for our children, especially for our daughters, and so sometimes, we get them (our daughters) married off at young ages to people who we beleive will take care of them.

Every society has its own unique problems, and ours happen to include poverty and hence illiteracy (or illiteracy and hence poverty, since the two go hand-in-hand).

So, yeah, I don't think ANY of us females on this board has a right to say that Pukhtun women are treated very badly or are treated very well. We can't take our own personal experiences and observations and say that they're the experiences of all Pukhtun women, since it's certainly not true for all Pukhtun women -- whether our experiences are good or bad. I know of Pukhtun women whose husbands treat them like queens. Then I know of Pukhtun women who are imprisoned in their own homes and are constantly abused.

Does either represent the situation of ALL Pukhtun women? No.

[Shayesta]

I am going to make this post of yours as my wallpaper of my computer.

LOL, prove it! :D

[spogmai shaglay]

There are even times when women are as guilty or even more guilty than men, dear everyone. Women usually have been mistreated themselves and instead of learning from their past and prevent such happenings on their daughters and daughters-in-law, they actually can't bare see other women happy and wish others exactly same misfortune. It's just that physically women ain't that strong like men are, otherwise mothers-in-law in Afghanistan today would have eaten their daughters-in-law alive. Illiteracy doesn't mean jahiliyat and wahshiyat and not only Pukhtoons are illiterate........

as it is correctly said... the biggest enemy of a woman is a woman....
what ur saying is correct..... mostly people think that if i have suffered the misfortune everyone should....
but there are some who feel and are of the opinion that the way we have suffered we will see to it tht our daughters, sisters, daughter-in-laws, etc. are not going to sufffer....
i really hope and wish that all women think like this....