"Nikah” After “Rukhsati"

[obaid]

BS

[Baygham]

You may claim not be bestowed with the powers of imagination... yet your imaginative capabilities of connecting unrelated concepts speaks to an active imagination.

Also, you continue to buttress emotion with more emotion: the statement that nonintervention breeds stagnation is completely devoid of sense or evidence.

I believe America's founding father's contradict you with Jefferson's famous comment on revolution: the tree of liberty must be refreshed by blood. The punctuated evolution then occured as a reaction to intervention... not as a sustained result of its presence.

Moreover, I would say that Africa and Asia have suffered quiet a bit of imperialism and western interventionalism... pray tell, did a railroad or two catapult them toward your secular utopia and bastion of human rights?

For that matter, the evidence of interventionalism in the middle east is bearing fruit right before your eyes.

A better example of autocorrection was Robespierre's french revolution. Without sustained interference from the outside, the society understood that it was Robespierre's head that deserved the guillotine.

Furthermore, the American experience itself is devoid of the sustained interventionalism you seek to impose on the Afghan people.

As usual, you defined a term and decided what it meant versus its usage in context. More of that non evidence based and ahistorical approach to life that I warned you about. Islam has nothing to do with raising a laskhaar or a girl getting shot in the head. You decided to define autocorrection as ='s resumption of mate gaurding behavior and traditional tribal law ='s Islam.

The point there is rather simple:

Enter Tom Stevens into an environment, and Tom is an American soldier. He is likely a foot soldier and just graduated high school. His view on women's rights and the ethics of justice is about as developed as that of most 18-22 year olds across the US. He probably reads Maxim Magazine and the last time he saw the inside of a text on civic justice or read Betty Freiden's The Feminine Mystique was in a past life (i.e. never). Maybe, if you wish hard enough and close your eyes tight enough, Tom Stevens might even be there "because they attacked us here." However, Tom's superiors know that this war is not about womens rights or about saving the Afghan people from themselves. At this point its about permanent bases and resources and being able to seen into central asia and china and russia coupled to some phantom cause.

Also, Tom is a Christian. We know how well those pesky Afghans enjoy the Christians preaching in their country. So we have established that Tom is not there to help Code Pink. Now, Tom comes into contact with Abdullah the Afghan. He humiliatingly searches him and usually treats him the way any trigger happy 18-22 year old does when he is given a M16 and some power without oversight.

Are you really that lacking in practical experience and life that you do not understand that Abdullah the Afghan will have a reaction to Tom (i.e. he will become a reactionary)? He is not going to endorse Tom's societial values because A) This is not Tom's society so he is not emersed in it and B) Tom's agenda is all muddled up in the politics of occupation.

So what you do is you set what I meant by "autocorrection" back about 100 years or so.

As I define it, autocorrection means that society ought to move towards more just and balanced paradigms as outside pressures are reduced. Just as the Puritans realized burning women alive for being witches just does not make sense for survival and societal stability... so too will a future generation of Afghans that do not have your brand of interventionalism imposed on them. Then, all intervention will be internalized and the society, if it is meant to survive will find a forward motion that allows for some semblance of a balanced and just society.

Heck, take a look at our own American society. When does the religious right tend to win elections? When the thread of an outside force ("Islamo Facism" as they are told today and "communism" as they were told about previously) comes their way they galvanize behind that protective unifying counter force of patriotism and southern bible belt christianity. Then, causes like stem cell therapies etc. that were rolling forward are taken 3 steps back when Mullah Bush sits on the takhth.

BA wrora, I dont wish to lecture you, but one appears in order. I am afraid in trying so hard on the MCATs and we all know how hard MD and residency and fellowship is, I am afraid you forgot what is in high school biology. Dont get offended, its a useless endeavor to keep in touch with these things, Caths and stents pay much more and you dont have to read anything, so a smart move.

When in a hundred millions years our fossils are studied by whoever, The tur kafir skulls and the abdali pashtoon skulls will look exactly the same. The may not even notice the occasional arab or american in the mix. It will all be put on the same shelf, carbon dated circa 2000, homo sapiens. The next shelf may show some neanderthals circa -40000.

My dear, darwanian evolution and its fossil record does not deal with the differentiation of a durrani pashtoon and the khalsi damm.
(sorry to digress but remembered a Ghani Khans sher,
neesthi chi boonari chi, mullah dha hashnaghar chi
Damm wee pa kabal ki, pa khalsa ki durrani chi)
Darwin does not tell us how the hell the kabal damm becomes a durrani in khalsa, a magical evolutionary jump nonetheless, these things have other explanations.LOL.


Pashtoons have never lived a day without intervention. If it is not hordes from the north, its the moguls, persians, one pashtoon tribe over another, sikhs, english, pakistani army, russians, arabs, americans. At every step we have changed and will continue to do so. In additional natural disasters, (out side forces), earthquakes, floods, famines, epidemics, commerce (starting before the silk route) modern and old have all nudged us into something else. These adaptations are acquired in very complex but well studied patterns.

What worked a 10000 years ago may or may not work today, Even gold standard attributes that may have let us survive 10000 years as a group/ language / culture may become our noose. To thus expect that some scripture written in a far off land by a different culture in a different language for a different people will be our answer in everything else, now and forever, is so utterly naive that if a village illiterate zamidar forwarded it as his solution for the next crop I will immediately place my order somewhere else.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA wrora, I dont wish to lecture you, but one appears in order. I am afraid in trying so hard on the MCATs and we all know how hard MD and residency and fellowship is, I am afraid you forgot what is in high school biology. Dont get offended, its a useless endeavor to keep in touch with these things, Caths and stents pay much more and you dont have to read anything, so a smart move.

When in a hundred millions years our fossils are studied by whoever, The tur kafir skulls and the abdali pashtoon skulls will look exactly the same. The may not even notice the occasional arab or american in the mix. It will all be put on the same shelf, carbon dated circa 2000, homo sapiens. The next shelf may show some neanderthals circa -40000.

My dear, darwanian evolution and its fossil record does not deal with the differentiation of a durrani pashtoon and the khalsi damm.
(sorry to digress but remembered a Ghani Khans sher,
neesthi chi boonari chi, mullah dha hashnaghar chi
Damm wee pa kabal ki, pa khalsa ki durrani chi)


Pashtoons have never lived a day without intervention. If it is not hordes from the north, its the moguls, persians, one pashtoon tribe over another, sikhs, english, pakistani army, russians, arabs, americans. At every step we have changed and will continue to do so. In additional natural disasters, (out side forces), earthquakes, floods, famines, epidemics, commerce (starting before the silk route) modern and old have all nudged us into something else. These adaptations are acquired in very complex but well studied patterns.

What worked a 10000 years ago may or may not work today, Even gold standard attributes that may have let us survive 10000 years as a group/ language / culture may become our noose. To thus expect that some scripture written in a far off land by a different culture in a different language for a different people will be our answer in everything else, now and forever, is so utterly naive that if a village illiterate zamidar forwarded it as his solution for the next crop I will immediately place my order somewhere else.

What good was this response? The word evolution does not have to signify solely biological evolution. Whilst I may have forgotten biology it appears that the multiple meanings of single words and the basics of English eludes you. Let me give me an example: The Beatles forced the evolution of rock and roll music.

Further, had you read what I had written you would see this has nothing, nadda, nill to do with Islam. I referenced societies on multiple levels including American reactionaryism to an outside threat that has affected internal domestic policy for the worst.

As usual you see the Islamic bogeyman with each post and enhance the discussin with some meshwork of fiction. I am however a fan of your ability to incorporate fictitious elements into your response.

Regarding interventionalism, you appear to be answering your own arguments and crucifying your own logic by citing the successive waves of intervention. Has it not dawned on you that these successive waves of intervention are what has held us back in addition to our own internal mistakes? If you have a house with a family that lives in Mayberry where Pappa comes home every day and Mama bakes Apple pies and the kids catch fireflies every night and then study for the spelling test (America), I am betting that the outcomes vary quiet a bit from a house where the dad is a heroin addict and the mom is an alcoholic and the kids are having to fend for themselves solely to survice (Afghanistan). My point is that merely suggesting the people are entitled to settle their own internal affairs is not equivalent to saying that Islamic law ought to be hoisted on them. If they so decide that that is not what they want then that is their own choice and they can succeed or fail with that decision... however, it ought to be their own decision to make.

Heck, as a running experiment, take two cultures that have developed side by side for the last 50 years: Afghanistan proper and the NWFP. The former has had waves of intervention and massive war and the latter, despite whatever specter of Panjabi occupation you raise, has been relatively war free to the level of a full scale USSR/Afghan style war. In the least the KP Pashtuns do not appear to view them selves as occupied in the broader sense. Compare teh number of female physicians coming out of NWFP versus all of southern Afghanistan put together. Khybar at least now has reserved seats for females. Females are in their dentistry schools and the culture now is beginning to mandate that men marry educated wives.

Now what is happening post intervention right next door? Those gains are being challenged because of the reactionary mentality being fostered by a foreign, non Muslim super power sitting there right next door in Pashtun lands.

[Baygham]

^ doctor saab, you cant tell opportunistic bugs not to kill an immunodeficient host. You can only make the host stronger.

Pashtoons are immuno-compromised all I am saying, stop blaming the bugs, the world is full of them and always will be, wishing for the bugs to go away and thinking that all will be rosy only then is a recipe for disaster. Heck none of our patients will make it till morning with that mentality. If not for this, some other idiot will jump in. Become stronger, get rid of HIV and other things, pump some antibiotics and lets see who gets who. They will all stop. its just that simple.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^ doctor saab, you cant tell opportunistic bugs not to kill an immunodeficient host. You can only make the host stronger.

Pashtoons are immuno-compromised all I am saying, stop blaming the bugs, the world is full of them and always will be, wishing for the bugs to go away and thinking that all will be rosy only then is a recipe for disaster. Heck none of our patients will make it till morning with that mentality. If not for this, some other idiot will jump in. Become stronger, get rid of HIV and other things, pump some antibiotics and lets see who gets who. They will all stop. its just that simple.

Once again fiction on top of non evidence based practice. The American Indian tribes were very similar in their demeanor. They sure pumped a heck of a lot of antibiotics into those poor folks right? So the host is immunocomprimised and instead of instituting contact precautions you want to expose it to a bug with a known history of colonization, tyranny backing, and ethnic cleansing of a whole tribal population. Tell me again, where did you study medicine? I think their curricula needs to be rejuvinated in terms of evidence based practice.

[Baygham]

Once again fiction on top of non evidence based practice. The American Indian tribes were very similar in their demeanor. They sure pumped a heck of a lot of antibiotics into those poor folks right? So the host is immunocomprimised and instead of instituting contact precautions you want to expose it to a bug with a known history of colonization, tyranny backing, and ethnic cleansing of a whole tribal population. Tell me again, where did you study medicine? I think their curricula needs to be rejuvinated in terms of evidence based practice.

you mean Quran based.

Munga dam daroodh ki PHD karri dha, ghum ii oo naki.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you mean Quran based.

Munga dam daroodh ki PHD karri dha, ghum ii oo naki.

Your obsession with religion is fascinating. Its almost pathological. Do you see this in your sleep?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you mean Quran based.

Munga dam daroodh ki PHD karri dha, ghum ii oo naki.

Its almost like you are the most anti mullah Mullah I have ever met. Have you considered a change in screen name to: Mullah DMD short for Mullah DaMullahgaanDushmaand

[Baygham]

Its almost like you are the most anti mullah Mullah I have ever met. Have you considered a change in screen name to: Mullah DMD short for Mullah DaMullahgaanDushmaand

da evidence based doozi aloozaa, is quran evidence based. Is your faith evidence based. Stop BS-ing me.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

da evidence based doozi aloozaa, is quran evidence based. Is your faith evidence based. Stop BS-ing me.

Che Geuvara nor Tecumseh ever read the Quran dear Sir. Exercise those demons Swaabi Khan saib... you are starting to implode mentally and collapse from the exhaustion of confabulation. You are seeing djinns and afreets in all corners of your mind where none should be and you appear to see quranic ayaahs attacking you in your sleep. I cannot help you with your own internal faith issues. Perhaps when you resolve them, this image will disappear from your mind.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

da evidence based doozi aloozaa, is quran evidence based. Is your faith evidence based. Stop BS-ing me.

Further more, I am happy that you have posted for all to see the clinching statement that shows you conclusively lost this back and forth. You were forced to admit that you equate your approach to the matters discussed and issues at hand to a non evidence-based faith. So we are all ecstatic to hear that your views on the subject matter are based on "faith" and not evidence nor reality. So its almost like you are a mullah... of a different sort.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you mean Quran based.

Munga dam daroodh ki PHD karri dha, ghum ii oo naki.

No response? Ok, time to sleep then. However, I rest comforted tonight that you admitted 3 major things, and you know admission is the first part of accepting treatment wrorre. These appear to be your conclusions:

1. That your view is a minority view
2. That your views on foreign policy are faith and fiction based
3.

Adieu until the morrow. Your fluphenazine depo shot awaits you. Otherwise I fear you shall be seeing these for the long term:

[Baygham]

Che Geuvara nor Tecumseh ever read the Quran dear Sir. Exercise those demons Swaabi Khan saib... you are starting to implode mentally and collapse from the exhaustion of confabulation. You are seeing djinns and afreets in all corners of your mind where none should be and you appear to see quranic ayaahs attacking you in your sleep. I cannot help you with your own internal faith issues. Perhaps when you resolve them, this image will disappear from your mind.

Must be hard, this balancing act. Growing up in america, those loose girls in school, those strict parents at home. Whats real, whats fiction. My gringo classmate, oh his hands were tied or he would never get deployed to Beghram, that fortress of death and despair for afghans. Only if Baygham was not alive this would have never happened.

Well I am a man, I can frolic and get away with it, when the time comes a maid will be imported from watan. Maybe I will upgrade my gene pool a little in the process, after all american passport who will say no. But what about these women folk, what if they decided to date, find a mate, a gringo mate. Astagfirullah, naoozobillah, dha sa wai. Lets not even go there. Lets keep a tight leash, lets recite alllah alllah day and night, keep a tight atmosphere at home, no room for maneuvering, make it all or none. If any dare to consider make sure it is obvious that one will be ostracised. Nour kho sa nashi koolay, praday watan dhay, kaash ka dha talib zamana way, then we would not have to deal with this non sense. May be we should all move back to kandahar or kabul. Well kabul is full of foreigners and nightclubs, may be kandahar. But i heard the electricity is patchy and its too hot. If only I could have my house shifted with a 100KV generator, and if they had a super market with fresh fruits, and the roads were like here, and the police as polite and law and order and schools up to standards, may be, may be then I would think about it. For now, lets just keep serious at home.

Guys were is the prayer rug, I need it now, I have to offer dhwa rakatha nafal for all the blessings that we have here in america. And girls cover your face the gringos are watching.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Must be hard, this balancing act. Growing up in america, those loose girls in school, those strict parents at home. Whats real, whats fiction. My gringo classmate, oh his hands were tied or he would never get deployed to Beghram, that fortress of death and despair for afghans. Only if Baygham was not alive this would have never happened.

Well I am a man, I can frolic and get away with it, when the time comes a maid will be imported from watan. Maybe I will upgrade my gene pool a little in the process, after all american passport who will say no. But what about these women folk, what if they decided to date, find a mate, a gringo mate. Astagfirullah, naoozobillah, dha sa wai. Lets not even go there. Lets keep a tight leash, lets recite alllah alllah day and night, keep a tight atmosphere at home, no room for maneuvering, make it all or none. If any dare to consider make sure it is obvious that one will be ostracised. Nour kho sa nashi koolay, praday watan dhay, kaash ka dha talib zamana way, then we would not have to deal with this non sense. May be we should all move back to kandahar or kabul. Well kabul is full of foreigners and nightclubs, may be kandahar. But i heard the electricity is patchy and its too hot. If only I could have my house shifted with a 100KV generator, and if they had a super market with fresh fruits, and the roads were like here, and the police as polite and law and order and schools up to standards, may be, may be then I would think about it. For now, lets just keep serious at home.

Guys were is the prayer rug, I need it now, I have to offer dhwa rakatha nafal for all the blessings that we have here in america. And girls cover your face the gringos are watching.

Remember that thing I told you about circular arguments? It appears that you also have circular responses.

Its like you some internal conflict between:

and

I cannot sort that out for you in regard to those loose girls and the issues you have with wanting to abuse women. You own all that... I wont go there because my specialty is not psychiatry LOL.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Seriously though, dont take all this too hard. I really enjoyed this but I am going to go sleep. I know you generally respond with some variation of utilizing clean American appliances vs sadomasochism of village women vs the Quran is a scroll from Arabia etc.

So in general, refer to my last post.