Rights of parents in west...can you slap your child there?

[Ashiq]

I guess what really matters is what does the trick. I think that that is not right, because everyone has their own method, as we can read that some people admit that hitting was part of their upbringing. I don't agree with this whatever-does-the-trick method. I believe that we should raise our children the way the Prophet of Allah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did.

Life has a purpose and who understood that better than him (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)?

[torkham]

What I have read about hand cutting is widely misinterpreted - arab scholars of language of quran have reached the conjecture that cutting of hand refers to cutting of tools available to the person who commits the crime - hand and tools have similar meaning in this specific context - and not to physically amputate hands.

thread at hand: punishing children: ok as a deterent, like when a child is about to stick hand on a hot oven, other wise a gentle smack. under normal situation, avoid hitting, smacking, inflicting pain - it does not work, it is cruel. as for living in the west, wow you people have to accept the consequences that society brings in your new adopted homes, and do what is right. if things go out of control, your son/daughter brings boyfriend/girlfriend!!!!!!! you either haven't raised your children knowing your cultural values. there is a phrase, 'shape up or ship out' that might be an answer to the predicament. or bite the bullet, accept the consequences and live like the romans do in rome. i personally would tell them shape up or ship out.

I am not a follower of anyone but the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). I follow his version of Islam.

Did you know that the Quran calls for the cutting of the hands of Abu Lahab? Can one say that the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not follow this Quranic injunction? Of course not. The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) knew the Quran more than anyone one of us.

That said, the injunction of cutting hands has the connotation that that person should be cut of from society, i.e. imprisonmment. And, if imprisonment does not do the trick then then his hands should be cut off. Yes, the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself did order the severing of hands, he even warned that if his daughter would steal he would order it. But the point that I am trying to make is that it is not the first option.

Moreover, the severing of hands depends on the society itself. If all amenities have been provided by the rulers of the society then yes, severing of the hands would be something to consider at the outset of the deliberation, however, if the society is not taken care of, then how can the rulers use that as a means right away. It would be unjust. The rulers also have to do their part. Ruling is not about being taken care of, it is about taking care of the people.

Moreover, in order to introduce the Islamic form of punishment, the society itself must first be introduced to the standards of the Quranic teachings. Just because a society is a Muslim majority does not mean that they know and follow Islam properly. A society has to be nurtured first before you can implement Islamic punishment. If a direct implementation of Islamic punishment is to be introduced before inculcating the society with Islamic tenets then it causes a lot illogical behaviour. Let me give you a good example, when the Taliban left, the true colours of the Afghan people came out. Why? That is because the Islamic tenets were not taught first, the punishments were implemented right away. Yes, the society itself was peaceful, but that was out of fear not out of love for the society.

[Dervaish]

We are confusing two things. There is a lot of difference between discipline and abuse. The law of the west is not blind. It understand the difference. Most of parents irrespective of religion or ethnicity spank their children to the limit of discipline and training. The law does not interfere and remains silent.There are people who beat their children because of their own frustration and anger. Such parents have no control over themselves. Their children become victims of abuse. In such situation the Law comes in and protect the children. Law does not interfere in your family matters or your way of training your children as long as children are not abused. Children are weak but they have rights and when their rights are abused the Law protect them. The Law does not say " let your children do whatever they want to do and parents have no right to say any thing". This is a wrong perception that our people have about the western Law.

[Dervaish]

As for as bringing home a boyfriend or girl friend is concerned, it depends on your own training of your children when they needed training. Such behavior is rarely observed among Muslim families. Instead of resorting to physical abuse, the best choice is a good training and keeping a healthy environment with in the family and stay friendly with your children. You will not have to face such undesirable problem.

[Michin Khel]

bringing home a boyfriend or girlfriend is just wrong and its not pashtun culture.

Pashtuns of the west dont follow pashtun way of life

[Mayana]

Pashtuns of the west dont follow pashtun way of life

Who are you to determine that?

[ScimitarXEdge]

I think everyone here in this thread has some very valid points from all sides of the spectrum. Albeit I do not endorse drastic or extreme solutions.

Ashiq and others like him have a great wisdom and insight on the importance of inculcating children with proper education and values, in fact this is the most important function in preventing social corruption and instilling values.

Although I don't agree fully with their solutions; they're on the right track for the most part.

What I find disagreeable are the arguments which are encouraging others to "bite the bullet" or "when in rome, do as the Romans. I don't find such arguments as properly complimenting the merit of the other ideas of inculcating values.

The values of religion or any type of social order for that matter is not merely a form of wishful appeasement of some Deity, but a deep and profound importance of social equity and balance with respects to our intrinsic human needs. When these are disrupted social deterioration occurs rapidly. That's why all efforts must be made to amend them.

It is not enough to merely say teach them good values and inculcate them with love and wisdom; of course that is the majority of the solution, it however does not take care of the problem completely. Often times different things can alter a persons mental condition dramatically even with proper values inculcated that they turn corrupt. The question is what should be done in such an instance?

When Our Creator granted free will, I don't believe it was implying free reign, people are confusing free reign and to behave with impunity with free will, we have free will to decide which path we take but not the choice of what consequences such behaviors should be dealt. Indeed the reason certain behaviors are considered "wrong" is because of their ultimate destructiveness and for granting permission or allowing such behaviors to continue is ultimately harmful for us all.

While most reasonable people will agree the Taliban style "Ad-Hoc" system of amending social corruption backfired, we must also see undue severance is merely extending the problem of negligence and is basically almost just a form of avoiding or ignoring the problems. So this is not a question of whether action should be taken, but what manner of action and to what degree, when is it or isn't it appropriate and predicting and measuring outcome.

We must bear in mind that the ultimate goal of amending corruption is salvation of the individual from their own evils and ultimately in turn salvation of our community from the evils that pervade around us.

Regardless of our attempts to rationalize certain aspects of Islam which in their more plain renderings appear to be harsh; To take the example used in this thread, things like amputations for thieves did in fact occur and were in fact applied during Nabi Muhammad(saw)'s time, it was not merely a symbolic gesture. However as Ashiq correctly addresses the frequency and the necessity of such means of correction was addressed based on different conditions and requirements; that the measure was seldom practiced as it would have been unethical and unjustified. The Qur'an states if one does something out of compulsion of need one is forgiven. This suspends penalties which may usually be incurred in the relevant conditions. Only the truly corrupt, those who are willfully and wantingly intent on doing wrong received the harsh punishments. Those who are merely driven from need were not "let off the hook" necessarily but were amended in much milder ways if needed.

All amendments should be addressed by their relevance and need, in the case of the " bringing home a boyfriend" scenario, negligence and/or sending the individual out of the house to run free will only introduce the individual to steep further into corruption. The solutions that should be taken should of course never be "Ad-Hoc", meaning just "Too little Too Late" expressions of rage to compensate for negligence and pampering. It should be treated like one would treat any other mental illness, something which requires intervention and treatment, sending the individual away from any environments which encourage such behaviors, a boot camp, whatever.

Parents should take great care for the upbringing of the child and this is something from a top down situation. Everything from the music a child listens to, how a child spends their free time, to the kinds of literature children read, to the people the child becomes associated with and even their school environment.

Strong emphasis should be placed on academic achievement and more over principles of justice and morality and their relevance to human well being

and Insha' Allah this will be adequate in leading the Youth to the right path.

[tor_khan]

Frankly, most people don't like policy-makers telling them how to run their own affairs, how to spend their money or organise their family life.

In Europe in general, there is an growing over-bearing intrusion into family life by the state. This is especially true of the UK. You practically have these governments taxing you to the hilt so that you are helpless and then turning around and funding organisations that tell you what to do.

Is Big Brother watching you? Sure. Through every camera lens in every store, downtown street corner and through every suburban "Neighbourhood Watch" programme. This doesn't exactly inspire a feeling of "safety" nor does it make people feel confident about their own judgments.

In general, I don't feel one iota of guilt for raising my children according to my standards in the manner that suits me. I have never taken my cue from parenting manuals, magazine articles or felt that I needed to follow what was fashionable. That kind of diatribe preys on people's fears and exploits them. So, I do what I think is right ... and who is to say I am wrong ... ? Some magazine or TV Nanny?

Before I came to the middle-east, where of course, family life is different, I thought that 2x2 was the "ideal" family structure. We're a 2.2 model, but increasingly, I think why can't it be 1x4 in a marriage with "x" number of kids. That might not be everyones ideal, but who says that the Colgate family is the ideal one?

Smack/don't smack ... yeah ... yeah. Nanny, nanny, nanny. Tell that to the "peaceful" West next time one of their soldiers holds a gun to the head of an Afghan teenager.

[torkham]

scimitarX - i think of the most difficult problem facing pashtuns (and other immigrants into the west) is the uncalculated and unpredictable consequence of evolution of values when children of immigrants very naturally start adopting the value paradigm of their environment. i think it is a continuing battle where some parents win (their children embrace parent culture and values) and many other lose (where children embrace the values of their surrounding) - the second set end up with further problems of mixture of identity, identity uncertainty, and finally the crisis. mixing cultural values can produce conflicts of ideas, this can take time. in extreme cases, the clash of ideas leads to sudden reawakening and the young man/girl realises how far off track they have become, and steer the rudder in the opposite direction frantically , and end up diametrically opposite end of the value spectrum - extremism, such as sudden change in modesty and the wearing a niqab in the west, or wanting to join the 'students who wear black lungi's' and going to watan and doing something outlandish.

submerging children into an alien culture is like exposing yourself to chemotherapy, you have to face the consequences that there will be hairloss etc [EXAMPLE/ALLEGORY!!!!!]

it is hoped that emphasis on education, principles of justice and morality would form spine of any good upbringing, it is not bound by culture; morality and justice is a humanist's requisite, but the idea of a specific conflict of boyfriend/girlfriend is not going to be resolved unless you accept the mores of your new environment, that is do as the romans. i really would not want myself or wish on others to face such a situation.

i know my limitations, i really dont want a son or daughter to come to our home with a boy/girl friend home because i dont have a novel solution, i just don't tread where i know i will have problems beyond limit of my reason. i stay where my logic, my societies logic is in sync, so i have plenty of back up for OUR morality and values, OUR paradigm. but problems happen anyway, then i deal with them, knowing that i tried to to stay away.

life is so difficult, so many problems . . . .

[MazloomYarMasud]

There is no evidence that slapping children makes them better or stronger individuals.

There is much better ways of dealing with Problematic children.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Torkham


You have legitimate concerns and contentions but it appears that the overall message you're conveying assumes a certain degree of hopeless surrender and belief in it's inevitability. Just as the Environment may impact youths it also impacts adults as well by cultivating a psychology that "resistance is futile" and thus we must conform to the status quo (do as the Romans do).

However I don't fully accept this notion that it can simply be described as "Naturally start adopting" this society's mores/value paradigm. I would argue that it's more as one of my close friend's once put it "a Natural reaction to an unnatural situation". I find that such notions are dangerous to believe, firstly because I don't feel that it's always true; in this case it isn't, the society that surrounds us right now is not one based on the faculties intrinsic to humans, therefore would not be "natural"; and furthermore the mores and zeitgeist it promotes are largely dysfunctional or destructive and impedes on the faculties which are intrinsic.

The analogy you gave makes sense; but I don't believe it's accurate in this context. Chemotherapy is intended to salvage the life of the patient but has some unpleasant side effects The mainstream mores of this society are intended to consume and dissolve the mores of those in comes in contact with. My analogy would have been like a Crooked Real Estate Developer who promotes a prosperous and safe Environment but doesn't reveal that it's really built a toxic waste dump, the children start getting affected, the people want to take action but are told to the corporations are too powerful for them to do anything.

Now many (not necessarily implying you) might respond back to that and give the stereotypical redneck argument "well Love it or Leave it, if that's how you feel"; but we're here because of displaced needs and disparate reasons that because of the global institutional design we can't fulfill through other ways. This however doesn't mean we should lay back and merely " do as the romans do".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insinuate that you're attempting to promote, encourage or make apologetics for conforming to such mores; I understand your intention is simply to try to find a sensible balance between the pressures of our Environment and our principles. I just don't agree with that strategy.

When I said instilling youth with good values and a sense of the justice; I don't merely mean just live by example; those are well meaning, typical and yet somewhat hallow methods. What I was referring is to Intellectually Empower the youth regarding the realities and Validity of their Moral Principles and how the contrary is destructive and against their well being. Not just telling them right and wrong but giving them the Intellectual, philosophical and Mental tools to be able to address such issues. This is something I have seldom seen done, and we are only as strong as our weakest link. I believe that empowering them with such tools will be the best deterrant as it will give the youth a sense of internal self confidence (the lack of which ends up being a bridge to corrupt behaviors) and also the ability to cogently respond against such invitations.

[torkham]

scimitar rex, thanks for your thought provoking response. I like the crooked real estate developer model, it is elegant in this context, as you say in mathematics. my chemotherapy allegory is really a model -a simplified view of a complicated situation, an abstraction, and as you have correctly picked my intentions - that intends to show as aspect of the problem we have at hand, eastern mores on western shores.

destructive zeitgeist is perhaps a good a discription, however lets deconstruct the situation. an afghan becomes an immigrant on prima facie reasons of seeking assylum. in the process of assimilation, the children are raised with mixture of cultural stimuli. this generation is subconsciously emulating and interacting with host country in same way as natives. [example: habits, music, cultural references, education (and miseducation)]
conflict begins when parental culture exerts constrainsts to certain actions that are inherently diverging [boy/girl friend issues, alcohol, loss of language and adoption of morality alien to parents]. if one is to maintain superficial harmony then new cultural values are adopted. of course superficial harmony is not the end design of a thoughtful individual. now agreeing with you on 'intellectual empowerment . . . . ', it is not a new solution but an old dilemma . . . i think it is a theme of falubert's madame bovary and balzac's comedie humane and tolstoy's kerenina, where the author implies that if one raises their daughters well, aware of consequences of good and poor choices, the daughters will make good choices in their search for spouses, however, tragedy is not far in these novels. restless spirits, free spirited individual, need to push beyond the shackles of social norms push indivduals to challenges not really thought through. it is a lament that to following age old wisdom is less exciting than the excitement of rebellion. here lies the trap.

its a human thought trap. as you say internernal self confidence, or as i say lack of internal self confidence. my observations are empirical, my examples anecdotal, but hardcore raw individuals i have seen are the one's raised back home, proud and aware of their culture, as opposed to new generation of afghan youngsters in the west, disaffected, with misplaced prides and egos. these are generalisations, for i am inductive by reasoning, there are fine examples of afghan youngsters out in the west as well, sadly few.

to bring these thoughts to an end, I agree with your ending remarks alluding to educating our children to deal with such issues, and I also agree with the fact that this educating is seldom seen done. my reference to do as the romans do is therefore a wake up call, to educate our boys and girls, that there are many cultures in this world, and our culture has served our people well, it has given us morality, peace, education, it has given as values that allow us to treat each others in our society without barabarism. only during conflict of cultures, a lack of education brings on the lack of self confidence.

Wake up pashtun who are asleep with eyes wide open. That is my point.
thanks ScimiterXEdge.

[meee:)]

Pashtuns of the west dont follow pashtun way of life

actually.. in my opinion, whether people follow the "pashtun way of life" is to do with family upbringing not where they are from....
i know plenty of people from pakistan /afghanistan that have boyfriends/girlfriends where as me "a pashtun of the west" have never had a boyfriend nor intend on having one

[Michin Khel]

actually.. in my opinion, whether people follow the "pashtun way of life" is to do with family upbringing not where they are from....
i know plenty of people from pakistan /afghanistan that have boyfriends/girlfriends where as me "a pashtun of the west" have never had a boyfriend nor intend on having one

You are right ,here in homeland many Pashtun males and females may get involve in secret love affairs or even extra-marital affairs but when exposed , lethal consequences are awaiting for them. Your own father or brother will kill you for it, if the family is traditional pashtun family. As you know in Pashtuns quarrels are on zar , zan and zameen.
In islamabad, karachi and other big cities there are some elite Pashtun families who dont mind allowing their sons and daughters in having this girlfriend/boyfriend thing, but we view them as westrenized and liberal.

[meee:)]

You are right ,here in homeland many Pashtun males and females may get involve in secret love affairs or even extra-marital affairs but when exposed , lethal consequences are awaiting for them. Your own father or brother will kill you for it, if the family is traditional pashtun family. As you know in Pashtuns quarrels are on zar , zan and zameen.
In islamabad, karachi and other big cities there are some elite Pashtun families who dont mind allowing their sons and daughters in having this girlfriend/boyfriend thing, but we view them as westrenized and liberal.

I agree that particularly in those cities it is possible to be even open about it, but I have heard of it even in Peshawar... it seems strange that here, despite the exposed environment, there are quite a number of good pashtuns. As I said, its all to do with upbringing.. for example, i am such a person that has too much respect for my parents to do such a thing. My parents are my world and I could never intentionally hurt them. and my other friends here are similar.

If a child is raised to have respect for their parents, the chances of such things happening is lower. having respect is key.