Pashto Basic course discussion topic.

[یاسمینه]

[QUOTE=Badlun;707005]

1. It was written wrong ,wapas should have been written not wapaz(I am in Spain these days and because using Spanish 24 hours unconsciously I wrote Z for S)
2. Band is the shorter form of bande and is used sometimes like zama pa ta band bawar dey=I trust you
Tell it someone who try to understand and search word by word in a dictionary. It is confusing. I tell all this after my own experience.
3. Many Pashtun linguists are against copying Arabic words exactly an dtry to pashtunize such words like sabaq of Arabic into sabak or khalak(people) instead of khalaq. For me both are correct, sabak or sabaq.
see above Plus, as I remember sabak has another meaning.

[یاسمینه]

In any language learning process , every word, every small detail matters. A language learner may pick one word from here and one rule of grammar from there. Every mote of effort contributes towards perfection.

Instead of recommending one thread, one book, one approach we may learn from any where we can. Written material in Pashto script, transliterated one or in any form , all help. What matters is dedication and getting guidance from any where possible.

We facilitators may encourage and make things easy for participants not confuse them with unnecessary technical details. Becoming expert in Linguistics is one thing and using a language for simple communication is another thing.

Badlun, it is not a competition. Do you know the most effective way of learning a foreign language? Two teachers - native for conversation and other for grammart etc.
English Pashto is the worst way of learning Pashto especially for a beginner, someone who wants to read and write. English Pashto is rather for those who already speak Pashto. I still can hardly read it while usually I don't have problems with the one written using Pashto letters.

I recommended Tor Khan thread because there were written in Pashto. Nothing more.
Lingusitic helps me, but all I know about learning and teaching is from my own experience. I still remember enourmous difficulties I had to face at the beginning of my Pashto way. Uncomparable to learning other languages. I know typical errors made by foreigners. You, as a native user, would never pay attention to things which are important for a foreign user.
I am sure you are excellent native speaker and that's why you are here

[Shah-i-Kot]

Badlun, it is not a competition. Do you know the most effective way of learning a foreign language? Two teachers - native for conversation and other for grammart etc.
English Pashto is the worst way of learning Pashto especially for a beginner, someone who wants to read and write. English Pashto is rather for those who already speak Pashto. I still can hardly read it while usually I don't have problems with the one written using Pashto letters.

I recommended Tor Khan thread because there were written in Pashto. Nothing more.
Lingusitic helps me, but all I know about learning and teaching is from my own experience. I still remember enourmous difficulties I had to face at the beginning of my Pashto way. Uncomparable to learning other languages. I know typical errors made by foreigners. You, as a native user, would never pay attention to things which are important for a foreign user.
I am sure you are excellent native speaker and that's why you are here

How would you learn the different dialects of any language?

[کیش]

I) SImple Sentence strucrue in Pashto
- Subject- object- Verb

1) SUBJECT- The Person, place, or idea that is doing or being something. is the do-er, or be-er. To find the subject think "who or what is is committing in action."

2) OBJECT- somebody or something involved in the subjects "performance" of the verb. it is what the verb is being done to.
A) indirect object- indentifies to or from whom or what action of the verb is performed.
b) direct object - is the receiver of (action) verb in a sentence
c) the object in a Pashto sentence csn be a prepositional phrase, a direct object, as adjective, or all of them

3) Verbs - carry the idea of being or action in the sentence,

simple sentence structure

EX: Asad * * * * *lik * * * * * legi = Assad is sending a letter
(Subject) * (direct object) (imperfective verb; the letter hasn't been sent yet)

EX: Plar * * * * * ma motor akhli=My dad is buying a car
* * * * (SUbject) (pronoun)(noun)(imperfective verb; the car has'nt been bought yet

II) Masculine Nouns
- All male animals and male humans
most masculine nouns refer to objects, qualities, and ides that have no gender.

1) M1 Nouns - are male people/animals. their direct plurals have the suffix [-an)(ان).
to their word forms. the oblique plural ends with [-o] to the direct plural form.
people with occupations have [-yan] as their plurals

2 M2 Nouns - are inanimate objects, ideas, or characteristics, they form their direct plural by adding [-una]. their oblique plurals end with [-uno] to the direct singular form.

EX: house -> Kor (direct singular. Koruna (D.P) Koruno (O.P)

M3 Nouns - The D.S form ends with [ay]. the D.P are the same, are formed by replacing [ay[ with [I]. The O.P replaces the [AY] with [O]. M3 nound denote both animate and inanimate objects, ideas or characteristics. just like the rest of the M.S

EX: Malgaray [D.S) -> Malgari (DP) * Malgaro (OP)

II) Feminine Nouns
- Words referring all female animals and people are feminine. "F" nouns denote onjects, qualities, and iedeas that have bi natural gender. USUALLY end with a Vowel: A,E,I,O,Y.U. some do not

1) F! Nouns: form ther=ir DP by replacing the final vowel of the D,S firn with thr suffix [-E]. the O.P is formed by replacing the final vowel of the D,S form with the suffix [-O]
EX: Dosti(D.S) = Dostay (O.S)


2) The D,S abd oblique firns of F2 nouns end in [-ay]. F2 nouns have an alternate form in their D.P, add [-gane]

EX: Koranay (DP) -> Koranaygane (OP)*


More elementary N.Nouns and F.N to come. i wrote this for thr extreme beginner

[Badlun]

Your lesson is very much systematic . I appreciate it from the core of my heart. Please write the examples in Pashto script and if possible write full words not abbreviated ones for better comprehension. I am myself confused in OP and DP!

Few comments in red.

EX: Plar * * * * * ma motor akhli=My dad is buying a car
* * * * (SUbject) (pronoun)(noun)(imperfective verb; the car has'nt been bought yet( Plar ma ta motor akhli=father is buying a car for me
plar motor akhli=father buys a car)


2) The D,S abd oblique firns of F2 nouns end in [-ay]. F2 nouns have an alternate form in their D.P, add [-gane]

EX: Koranay (DP) -> Koranaygane (OP)*
What about dostyaney, koranyaney ?

[یاسمینه]

How would you learn the different dialects of any language?

I don't know the guidelines. I say on my experience and learning Pashto is an excellent example. I am not a native Pashto speaker. At the beginning I learnt Pashto, including grammar. It wasn't any particular dialect. It was the language used by my professors. One ustad - Pashtun, Pashto linguist from Kabul, his ancestors were also from Kabul. Second professor - not native Pashto lingust, who in 70's pursued individually tailored studies in Kabul under professor M. Zyar's guidance. So their Pashto became my Pashto and became my "reference point" to other dialects. With time I met for example different verb forms (different to my "reference" Pashto), different writting or pronunciation of known words, etc. My professor always explained me details, origins of these new words or or giving the names of certain objects in different dialects. I was told that for example in Kabul they call this X, in Peshawar Y. I also read some papers about Pashto dialects and comparative linguistic. Additionally, my friend introduced me roughly his dialect from Nangarhar and other dialects he knows - he sent the same text recorded in Nangarhari and in other dialects. I am not fluent in any dialect, but I can roughly distinguish one dialect from another. And I still learn, even from this forum. Pashto written in English is an excellent help (though I dislike this English Pashto). Users write as they speak. I also listen to different dialects on the web. I still can count on my professors' help. But I never try to speak any dialect. The Pashto I speak is the Pashto I learnt from my professors at the beginning.

I know someone who is an independent expert in Swiss Ministry of Justice, at the Lingua unit. Sometimes this person is involved in translation of testimony, interrogations of prisioners. I was told that there is no chance to hide dialect or place of origin. Always some detail will reveal the native dialect or place of origin of an interrogated. It could be a word typical only for one area, or name of a game known only there, or other seemingly insignifican thing.

If we are talking about learning foreign languages or dialects, I think it is worth to mention one thing. The term "fluent Pashto" (or any other foreign language) is unclear and confusing. The use of foreign language consist of five elements:
- reading skills (not applicable for some spoken dialects),
- writting skills (not applicable for some spoken dialects),
- ability to speak,
- comprehension/ understanding of spoken language.
- translation. Linguists and translators/ interpreters says that the last skill is the most difficult because it requires something extra, something like "human interface". Shortly, some people have this "interface" or gift some do not.
Usually people who are "fluent" in foreign language, they aren't fluent in mentioned five elements. But it does not change the fact, that in general terms their foreign language is very good.

[Badlun]

How would you learn the different dialects of any language?

Dialects is a later stage in the language learning process. For example when we learn English in primary schools we do not know any dialect/accent of English as British English or American English. Similarly we learn just Persian not Afghan Persian(Dari), Tajik Persian or Iranian Persian.

This is a conspiracy against Pashto that the learners are made confused in dialects and accents of Pashto so that they are discouraged and use Urdu or Dari in their communication in Pakistan and Afghanistan and this way need of Pashto is not felt and the market of Pashto as a language is lost.

Just learn the dialect it is available to you. Once you master one dialect then understanding the other one will not at all be an issue. In the fog of dialects there is always one core language. A beginner must learn that core.

By the way Pashto just has two dialects hard and soft and both are mutually intelligible and the difference is in few sounds like j/g and kh/sh , few geo-synonyms and different vowel endings in various accents.

Writing of Pashto is the same everywhere because there are special Pashto letters for sounds differing in different dialects. For example gira/jira(beard), kha/sha(fine, good) are written the same way but pronounced according to the soft or hard dialect.

[یاسمینه]

Pashto just have two dialects hard and soft and both are mutually intelligible and the difference is in few sounds like j/g and kh/sh , few geo-synonyms and different vowel endings in various accents.

Very rough division. I would say that there is a group of Eastern dialects, Central dialects and Western dialects. Before 1979 over 40 Pashto dialects were identified. I think that differences between dialects are not limited to the pronunciation only.

[Badlun]

Very rough division. I would say that there is a group of Eastern dialects, Central dialects and Western dialects. Before 1979 over 40 Pashto dialects were identified. I think that differences between dialects are not limited to the pronunciation only.

This is again a conspiracy to divide the mother Pashto into so many pieces. It is horrible. We must differentiate pronunciation, accent and dialect. Each individual has its own pronunciation with its own intonation so we cannot say there are millions of dialects in Pashto. Similarly each region, walayat, province can have its own accent so it does not mean these are the varieties or dialects of Pashto.

The division of dialects in Pashto is based on geography but it is North/south not East-center-west. This East-center-west is again the work of the enemies of Pashto to divide Pakistani and Afghanistani Pashtuns. There is a different dialect in Kandahar and Jalalabad but the dialect of Kandahar and Quetta is the same(soft) while the dialect of Peshawar and Jalalaabd is the same(hard).

[یاسمینه]

This is again a conspiracy to divide the mother Pashto into so many pieces. It is horrible. We must differentiate pronunciation, accent and dialect. Each individual has its own pronunciation with its own intonation so we cannot say there are millions of dialects in Pashto. Similarly each region, walayat, province can have its own accent so it does not mean these are the varieties or dialects of Pashto.

The division of dialects in Pashto is based on geography but it is North/south not East-center-west. This East-center-west is again the work of the enemies of Pashto to divide Pakistani and Afghanistani Pashtuns. There is a different dialect in Kandahar and Jalalabad but the dialect of Kandahar and Quetta is the same(soft) while the dialect of Peshawar and Jalalaabd is the same(hard).

So please tell me if the difference between Kandahari سي and Nangarhari شي belongs, in your opinion, to accent, pronunciation, dialect or to something else?

[Badlun]

So please tell me if the difference between Kandahari سي and Nangarhari شي belongs, in your opinion, to accent, pronunciation, dialect or to something else?

This is a difference of pronunciation and accent not dialect as we do not have kandahari dialect and Jalalabadi dialect based on the difference of this S and SH sound/phoneme.

Again it is North-South not East-west. The neighboring areas of Pakistan in the east also uses soft S and not SH while in Peshawar, Swat , Karak they use Sh not S.

The issue is that we may identify such differences but not magnify them to call it a dialect and thus outsiders will think that it is an impossible task to learn Pashto because it has hundreds of dialects and we cannot master so many dialects.

It is just a simple matter that in Kandahar you say si not shi(both phonemes very similar not like one is si and the other is di) but this difference may not be exaggerated to the extent that there is another kind of Pashto in Kandahar or Jalalabad.

[یاسمینه]

Well, this time I am going to trust Pashtun Pashto linguists but of course you can create your own division of Pashto dialects

[NiMade Olga]

كيش،
Thank you for the explanation, but I didn't understand anything from there does it mean that every masculine can have 3-4 different plural endings and ending which we have to use for this or that case depends on how do you use this masculine in a certain sentence?
Seems like I have to go to learn English grammar and all these forms of words first....


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[یاسمینه]

كيش،
Thank you for the explanation, but I didn't understand anything from there does it mean that every masculine can have 3-4 different plural endings and ending which we have to use for this or that case depends on how do you use this masculine in a certain sentence?
Seems like I have to go to learn English grammar and all these forms of words first....


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Olga, check this file http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashto-language/18868.htm and my other post from July/ August 2011.
Do you speak Russian? If you do, you have a great opportunity to learn Pashto grammar in Russian. It is the best description of Pashto grammar, it is available in our kitabtoon

[یاسمینه]

Here we go
http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashto-...ries/24442.htm

It was written in 60's or so and still remains the best Pasto grammar ever. English or Frenc manuals aren't good at all. Do you speak German?