Evolution theory contradicts the Quran and Hadiths

[khushal]

Natural selection simply means that a group becomes more viable or less viable against hostile elements and forces in our environment. It doesn't necessarily denote the superiority

But it's not as complicated as you make it; But the reasoning is simple; Aren't Hard-working focused people who look for answers and solutions to problems more viable than people who are lazy, incompetent and unmotivated?

THis is what happened; Muslims were at one time Naturally Selected to be more Dominant than Europeans ....and now we live under their foot

the reason why is because we got lazy.

Im talking about natural selection acting on the phenotype biologically speaking.
Muslims didn't become lazy, it was more to do with their location on the planet and other circumstances that had nothing to do with natural selection, biologically speaking.
The mongols came and destroyed most of the scholarly work in Baghdad and Damascus which had a very negative impact on the Muslims. If any scholarly work survived, it survived in north Africa and Muslim controlled Spain, French areas, and Italy which the euopreans later used to build their own society . The Muslims reaction from the mongol invasion was to spend all resources on the military and arms and less on scholarly work. This created a powerful military(ottoman empire) but a weak research and development institution. Most of its research and development was to build the military. Its the old butter and guns curve. You give a little to one side, you are taking from the other side.
Guns And Butter Curve Definition

When the Ottomans put an embargo on the Europeans(famous silk trading route that stretched from the far east to western europe) , the europeans who depended on the trade were forced to spend most of their resources on building ships. Over time they became very good at it. Since they had to go around Africa to get to the far east, the Europeans became desperate for a shorter and more effecient route which led to the European discovery of the Americas. The Europeans used these powerful navies to create wealth and pillage resources from all over the planet. They initially could not challenge the Ottomans since they had a powerful military but over time pillaging people that did not have advanced military capabilities led to enormous wealth they used to easily dominated the planet and eventually challenged the Ottomans when it became feasible.

So it was more about locations and circumstances, not laziness or natural selection, not intellectual superiority.

[ScimitarXEdge]

That's an interesting conclusion; and there is a certain degree of merit; even though Baghdad and many Major citiadels of Learning were ruined by the Mongols; the Turks were still powerful long after the Mongol Invasions. Also the Andalusians which you mentioned didn't feel the brunt of the Mongols, although I guess it could be argued that the Mongol invasion by destroying the Middle Eastern heartland had created ripple effects everywhere else. Muslim sciences still persisted after the Mongols; but the so called "Traditionalists" (wrongly labeled) began making headways since the Rationalists were no longer available to keep them in check by sheer power, and thus ushered the decline of science, laziness and incompetence.

[Afghanistan2010]

I have not come around what wrong is with Attan ?but khair

Second there is no basic in Quran and Sunnah for the saying of Rumi,he had nothing which supports his view or the view of any other famous scholar.

He was sufi and all agree on this , al Ghazali was once also sufi but later changed his opinion from the former views of the greeks and other philosophians.

It is nothing wrong to be sufi but modern day sufiyah followers are mostly you will find misguided doing things out of islam.

while i respect Rumi because our leaders in the army of the islamic emirate called him scholar.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The signs of Allah(swt) prove that Rumis words are Islamic and taught by Islam since Nature is a Sign of Allah(swt) is verified by Islam.

[faye]

Im talking about natural selection acting on the phenotype biologically speaking.
Muslims didn't become lazy, it was more to do with their location on the planet and other circumstances that had nothing to do with natural selection, biologically speaking.
The mongols came and destroyed most of the scholarly work in Baghdad and Damascus which had a very negative impact on the Muslims. If any scholarly work survived, it survived in north Africa and Muslim controlled Spain, French areas, and Italy which the euopreans later used to build their own society . The Muslims reaction from the mongol invasion was to spend all resources on the military and arms and less on scholarly work. This created a powerful military(ottoman empire) but a weak research and development institution. Most of its research and development was to build the military. Its the old butter and guns curve. You give a little to one side, you are taking from the other side.
Guns And Butter Curve Definition

When the Ottomans put an embargo on the Europeans(famous silk trading route that stretched from the far east to western europe) , the europeans who depended on the trade were forced to spend most of their resources on building ships. Over time they became very good at it. Since they had to go around Africa to get to the far east, the Europeans became desperate for a shorter and more effecient route which led to the European discovery of the Americas. The Europeans used these powerful navies to create wealth and pillage resources from all over the planet. They initially could not challenge the Ottomans since they had a powerful military but over time pillaging people that did not have advanced military capabilities led to enormous wealth they used to easily dominated the planet and eventually challenged the Ottomans when it became feasible.

So it was more about locations and circumstances, not laziness or natural selection, not intellectual superiority.

according to my understanding, darwin incorporated the extinction of people by other people, as part of 'natural selection'. at the time he went to south america and australia and saw first hand the europeans murdering the natives, he considered this a good and advanced move, as lands would be open to cultivation, european style and christianity would prevail.
even tough he didn't necessarily consider the europeans actions of slaughtering, morally superior to the natives.

[khushal]

That's an interesting conclusion; and there is a certain degree of merit; even though Baghdad and many Major citiadels of Learning were ruined by the Mongols; the Turks were still powerful long after the Mongol Invasions. Also the Andalusians which you mentioned didn't feel the brunt of the Mongols, although I guess it could be argued that the Mongol invasion by destroying the Middle Eastern heartland had created ripple effects everywhere else. Muslim sciences still persisted after the Mongols; but the so called "Traditionalists" (wrongly labeled) began making headways since the Rationalists were no longer available to keep them in check by sheer power, and thus ushered the decline of science, laziness and incompetence.

I think after the Mongol invasion, the muslims debated about the reasons why the invasion was not thwarted and why Defences were not adequate. I think the side that theorized that not enough resources were spent on Defence took control of policy and sidelined the "Rationalists." Science was there but it was used to advance military technology and that is why the ottomans came up with the best guns and artillery equipment. It never occurred to the Ottomans that the future belonged to the ones that controlled the Seas and that is what the Europeans were working on.

There is a big debate in America about something similar. Most of Americas best intellectual talent goes to wall street and you have people coming up with shrewd ways to manipulate the system to make a lot of money very quickly. Science, Mathematics and Engineering are taking a back seat at the Universities which are the foundations of keeping a society at the top. America is also spending more and more on defence and less and less on education. Right after 911, the neocons policies were enforced and they are big advocates of defence spending and military expansion. They sidelined and silenced anyone that spoke against their agenda by reminding them of 911.
It was the same way the "Rationalist" were sidelined and silenced after the Mongol invasion.

So incompetence yes, but laziness no.

[khushal]

according to my understanding, darwin incorporated the extinction of people by other people, as part of 'natural selection'. at the time he went to south america and australia and saw first hand the europeans murdering the natives, he considered this a good and advanced move, as lands would be open to cultivation, european style and christianity would prevail.
even tough he didn't necessarily consider the europeans actions of slaughtering, morally superior to the natives.

I'm not sure if he advocated that Europeans wipe out other races or people but he did predict that it would happen since it would be part of Natural Selection. His book, the descent of man, did influence Hitlers policy of wiping out minorities. It convinced the Europeans that it was part of Natural Selection and did not regard it as immoral.
He did not believe that Christianity would prevail since he rejected Christian beliefs.

[faye]

no, i didn't say he advocated it. he saw it happening when he went to these places.
this was from his journey on the hms beagle, i think it was. he appeared to believe in christianity then or think it was superior to the primitive lifestyle. what i read was from his diary.
i saw that hitler was influenced by the theory.

[Afghanistan2010]

The signs of Allah(swt) prove that Rumis words are Islamic and taught by Islam since Nature is a Sign of Allah(swt) is verified by Islam.

you are repeating yourself without sources from quran and sunnah.

just because you say 100 times the same thing doesnt prove it.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The Qur'an tells us that Nature is from Allah(swt), which makes it Allah(swt)'s signs so it's Allah(swt)'s signs which make it true. so that is proof from Qur'an and Sunnah , since Qur'an and Sunnah harmonize with all other Signs of Allah(swt)

I'm only repeating it to you because it seems you're scared of the signs of the Allah (swt), because they would prove your understanding is wrong, if you understood the Qur'an and Sunnah you wouldn't ignore the the signs of Allah(swt).

[ScimitarXEdge]

Science was there but it was used to advance military technology and that is why the ottomans came up with the best guns and artillery equipment. It never occurred to the Ottomans that the future belonged to the ones that controlled the Seas and that is what the Europeans were working on.

That's what should be noted here, they didn't advance military technology, at least not by much, although at one time Turkish Navy was one of the most powerful. However towards the end they weren't focused on development and the more Oscurantist elements of Islamic Scholarship took more precedence.

But in the general sense you're correct that their lack of fortifying their Naval abilities came at the detriment of Muslims all over, but what about the Mughals? and Afghans? Sure we may pride ourselves over our victories at Gundamak and such; but it was all Pyrrhic victory; and oddly enough we ended up indirectly colonized.

There is a big debate in America about something similar. Most of Americas best intellectual talent goes to wall street and you have people coming up with shrewd ways to manipulate the system to make a lot of money very quickly. Science, Mathematics and Engineering are taking a back seat at the Universities which are the foundations of keeping a society at the top.

I'm not sure what merit this claim holds; there is at this time still billions of dollars of funding for scientific research; otherwise cutting edge technologies would not be available at most research bearing institutions such as Universities. Things dealing with nanophotonics and Quantum Computing. Often this funding is attributed by the Department of Defense, actually the Department of Defense is responsible for a great deal of funding for scientific research, especially mathematics and applied physics.

America is also spending more and more on defence and less and less on education. Right after 911, the neocons policies were enforced and they are big advocates of defence spending and military expansion. They sidelined and silenced anyone that spoke against their agenda by reminding them of 911.
It was the same way the "Rationalist" were sidelined and silenced after the Mongol invasion.

Well I have to disagree; I believe America's decline is as you stated; incompetence; misallocation of resources, squandering it for frivolous pursuits. It's not the military spending itself which is dampening it. America's decline is a direct consequence of a Capitalist operating system. It was the squandering and excess driven consumption which will limit America's future progress as a world hegemony. The wars and military complex were attempts to regalvanize it. People from all over the world come to America to study, just like they went to Baghdad to study. It's America's hubris which is the source of it's decay.

So incompetence yes, but laziness no.

you're using America's decline to explain Muslim decline; I believe in the Muslim scenario laziness was a huge factor, the Scholars shunned learning, look at the Scholars of Muslim India, the mainstream used to accuse Sayyid Jamaluddin Afghani of being a Freemason and shunned science. Also internal squabbling, sectarianism, materialism (our leaders were more concerned with a comfy and luxurious life ....sadly the Afghan Kings of yore and Ottoman Sultans were no different than Saudis right now)

[Alchemist]

Ramadan Kareem is coming to an end brothers....

stop wasting your time reading this buffoon, ****mitarsexedge, and instead try and finish reading the Qur'an.

Once you read the Qur'an from beginning to end you will know that ****mitarsexedge is just a heretical mushrik who is exactly everything he accuses others of being - a sell out, brainwashed, whitewashed, institutionalized, show off and a braggadocio. He is nothing more than a keyboard warrior. It should be a clue to you that someone is brainless when you see them retyping the same nonsense over and over for over three months! Sort of reminds of those lost souls at the internet cafe. Banding with other strangers in virtual worlds and fighting evil monsters, winning praises and "tokens" to build their virtual characters.


When someone tells you that they are an "Agnostic Theist", you should know better than to argue with them on "faith" and religious matter. Agnosticism, simply put is a form of kufr. Which is why if you challenge this boy on miracles exemplified on the Qur'an, such as Isa's miraculous birth, the miracles that he presented as proof of being a Rasool, such as bringing clay shaped as birds into life, he will flat out deny them. He went so far as to say that he is more willing to believe the same jews that plotted to kill Isa than he is to believe the Qur'an, by saying that Maryam, the mother of Isa, had fornicated in secret (auzubillah). Ollaika Al lazina ishatarul dallalata bil huda (he is one who will buy falsehood by selling the guidance sent to him by Allah.)

I feel bad for bringing this virus here now because I've come to realize that he is actually worse than a Qadiani. Even though their tacts are the same, the scale at which he goes at is far more harmful than what a Qadiani does. A Qadiani and most other heretics will try to sell you on lesser evils. They might want to convince you that Nubuwat hasn't ended, or that you have pray 3 times instead of 5, but shirk is the worst thing anyone can ask to lead you. You fall into committing shirk when you deny the Attributes of Allah, or you divide the attribute of Allah from Him. This is how it started in much older religions. Commonly known as mystery religions, where angels are worshipped, in themselves as the source of the task they perform for Allah. In this case, ****mitar will have you believe that Allah is not "qadirun ala kuli shai" or "fa3alun lima yureed". He will have you believe that nature is a thing in it self, existing as an extension of Allah, auzubillah. If you accuse a christain of polytheism he will look at you with disgust and say that you don't know his or religion and speak out of ignorance. They will go at length explaining to you how the word, the holy spirit, and the father exist separately and intrinsically function as one, but we know that they are blatant mushriks. The word nature in arabic is "tabi3a", have you ever found a reference to this word in the Qur'an? They use the word like we use the word in english.."naturally.." as in "of course"..."tab3an" is also in farsi, or "tab3i", "natural". Rather, Allah refers to His "ayat", which most translations put as "signs". What are the ayats of Isa? That he was born from a virgin mother, spoke in the cradle, cured the incurables, resurrected the dead and brought life to the lifeless, by the Will of Allah. So he has difficulty believing in this because they are labelled as "miracles". But the word "mo3jiza"/ miracle, is not used in the Qur'an, the word is Ayat. What are other of the ayats mentioned by Allah? Khalaqum min nutfatin, Marajal bahrain yal taqiyaan, wal shams wal qamarul kulon fil fulkon yasbahon...these are things that appear ordinary to you and a given, the birth of a child, the rising of the sun, the stationary mountains, the bird that floats in the air, but these are called the same things by Allah, as the parting of the sea by Mosas. If you are a true muslim, you will begin to see it all as a miracle and an attestation to Power of the Ever Living. We say "ayat" as in "signs" but are not the verses of quran also refered to as "ayats"?
When you have the mindset of a doubter, then you can only parse the Qur'an and say to your self "what does Allah mean by this or that". Qul Lam Tu'mino Walakin Qulo Aslamana Wa Lamma Yadkhuli Aleman fi Qulobikom" "Say: You have not yet believed, but say 'We have Submitted', for faith has not yet entered your hearts" (64:14)

The tactics of ****mitar is exactly like that of Qadiyani and I have lot of experience with both qadianies and ****mitar. Both believe that Ulama are misguided and they of their own whims can show you the way because they are more "modern" and "updated" on the "science of Quran". So like the diligent scientists that they aspire to be, the start to focus on the words, and the phrases and miss out on the bigger picture. Which is why you can never actually "win" any arguments. They will break out the argument into a series of derailing issues and like foxes take you on a wild chase with no end at sight. This is because they will have you accept their terms as truths in themselves and there by set the parameters of the arguments. And only they can change it as they see it fit to their arguments. He claims to be a "muta'zali" which gives him a license to tell you when which word in the Qur'an is figurative and when it is literal. For example, he once argued that Jannat is figuritive, it is not literal. So I asked him what about the Ayats, that describe the Jannat, as Jannatun Tajiree min tahteehal anhar, Heavens with rivers flowing underneath. He made the claim that there is no such thing as rivers under garden so it is proof that is figurative and metaphorical and not real. You would think that this is true to be a special case...if only every time in the Qur'an Janat and rivers underneath were paired together as a special feature. But there is one verse in the Qur'an wheren Firoun asks his followers, am I not the lord of this land, egypt, under which rivers flow beneath (43:51).
So such description is true of Eygpt, then why not for Jannat?

This buffoon tries too hard to superimpose the narrative description of evolution over the narrative of creation in the Qur'an by drawing your attention to "water". He will want you to focus on the saying that "Khalqa kulo shaiin min ma" "Created everything FROM water". But slyly he shies away from explaining to you the narrative in evolution, where life begins IN water. He never goes on to elaborate on this point of his but gives it to you as if it is a given fact that any buffoon like himself can accept unquestionably. If you have knowledge of either Qur'an or Evolution, you will see that this is a futile effort on his part. You would have better luck figuring out a way of mixing oil and water into a homogeneous solution. In the Qur'an numerous times does Allah mention, and the land was dead, and We brought Water to it and brought for life from it. Look to the changing of seasons. Winter comes and the trees by definition die, then Spring returns and life gushes forth. Whose doing is it? Who brings the life from dead things but Allah? Similarly in the deserts of Arabia and the savannah of Africa, when the land is dried and no hope for life remains, who brings it back to life? Allah. The point being made in the Qur'an is that Allah brings the water to a place where there is no life, and He brings life to it. So where did the water come from to this earth? Does evolution have the answer?
His myopic understanding of the Qur'an allows him to delude himself into believing that Allah has created "prototypical" human beings.. half apes, half humans. When in truth, Allah continuously mentions in the Qur'an..."Wa kam min Quranin Ahlakna min qabl, quame nuhin...wa qawm e samood..wa qaum e firaown..." Specifically Allah mentions of the different RACES of human beings that were destroyed with traces for us to see that these were a people who had turned on Allah so Allah destroyed. This buffoon will have me believe that Allah randomly selects one "Species" over another because they "adapted" to their environment...and that their iman and zulm was not a factor in their annihilation. So the game continues for this buffoon as he tries to convince us that the word for evolution in arabic is actually "watara". I tried to tell him that there is no such word, and that the word is actually "Atwar", plural of "tur" which means "State"..but he was too busy raising his hand in air and walking off the euphoric feeling of triumph he had felt. Still, supposing that it was "Atwar", evolution implies gradual change from one thing to another. But you don't say that you are evolving from an embryo to a foetus, to a child then a prepubescent boy and then a man, because you are still a human being at different stages and not a thing totally different from before. Your cells change in a timely and predictable manner and deviation from that change without lead to an abnormality. And this is the type of orderly, ordained and measured change that Allah gives examples of in your creation. But evolution is the total opposite, it speaks of an immeasurable, incalculable, and unpredictable, hit and miss type of change that is inherently random.

****mitarsexedge is a buffoon who has very little understand of the Quran and of evolution. His arrogance is the fuel for his self deceit. Predictably he will try to parse every argument made to look for a mistake in order to invalidate the author as a misfit because in his opinion his degree validates him to speak his mind as if he himself is the prophet of God. Since in his warped sense of reality, nature is subject, and nature is a reflection of God, therefore, having a degree in geology allows him to decipher the Quran better than a Sheikh of Islam.

He can't speak of the biochemical impossibility of the theory. And when challenged on iconic assumptions of evolution, his defensive strategy is to put the onus of proof on to his opponents - because he himself is too ill informed to present any proof of his own.

Don't waste any more of your precious time with this donkey brothers.

Salam

[ScimitarXEdge]

Simply long winded attempt at character assassination by alchemist with no substance or relevant rebuttal

in other words cowards attempt for being incompetent in making a sufficient response.



this guy gives Ramadan greetings whlile cussing? that tells you something about how shallow his religiosity is ..mind you he serves HAM and Pork in his Restaurant.

He can say whatever he wants, at least we're not Hypocrites like he.

[faye]

scimitar, be nice to alchemist. by the time you leave school, there will probably be few jobs available in the u.s. and you might be begging for a job, cleaning, in his pork and ham restaurant......

[ScimitarXEdge]

you realize I have job right LOL.. Faye can you please stop behaving like a typical white harlot ....and passing yourself to every male on this forum. it's really undigified