why Creationism is farcical and Evolution is a meritable Scientific Concept

[torkham]

kaish, wallah i am not laughing at you. this is a discussion, with intent to clarify our doubts, misunderstanding and ignorance. i believe you have faith, you are a muslim, so seek knowledge from scholars, from experience, but seek it for yourself to get rid of doubts.

[ScimitarXEdge]

yes many things can harm people; even YOUR interpretation can harm people.

Perfect example; when vaccinations were originally coming to the Muslim world to cure polio; Mullahs who had the same attitude as you did, rejected Polio Vaccine because they felt it went against "Al Qadar"; because of that millions of Muslims suffered because these Mullahs used their silly interpretations to reject Modern Science.

Modern Science is only as bad as the people who apply it, but reality is reality, science is not under the dictation of people who have immoral motives. This is more a reason why we need Muslims to become scientifically literate and have a scientifically consistent understanding of the world , so we can reclaim the power of science from this morally corrupt culture.

Denying reality based on superficial literalistic understanding of Qur'an won't change what Nature reveals to mankind. If God is the Supreme Creator, then nature is just a form of God's revelation to mankind, we should apply it.

[torkham]

asalamoalaikum.

[کیش]

I am not with doubts, no interpretations, or some Muslim who picked up the Quran and needs a scholar. I have only warned you about it. what happens after; however, its up to you to figure out.

Isn't the Sorcery example related to modern science? Am talking about the real hard ones, like being able to communicate with Jinns. The black-magic of Sulaymon's time was powerful, am not talking about modern day Psychics, Astrologers, and Numerologists. You could use Black-Magic for good, who knows what those people were able to do. Modern Science is the same. Are you denying the negatives of science? The X amount of people killed, the pollution and deforestation. The list can go on and on.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No sorcery isn't related to modern science. Sorcery always deals with nefarious motives, Science can cure diseases, if used wisely. Believe me I know a great deal about how modern science can be abused. I also know that modern science can reveal how nature works. Your argument is a red herring, because how it is used and how it details how nature works are two different things.

Your views can be nothing more but an interpretation it's not based on a deep study of the Qur'an. You're blind following.

[کیش]

You do not know much about Black-Magic, and it's power. What do you mean about always being nefarious? Black-Magic was the Science of the past. Are you denying Modern Science having nefarious features?

I am blindly following the Prophet (PBUH)? The day of judgement is near, when this statement gets thrown.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Now you're being really absurd; black magic is super natural and is not testably reproduceable; you cannot falsify the claims of black magic, you can with science and that way you can determine whether there is evidence for it. Science works by natural forces, black magic works by intervention of supernatural forces (or so they claim). The two have nothing to do with each other because science is determining what happens in NATURE, not supernatural events

modern science is not nefarious; people and their applications of science are nefarious, science is just science it's an explanation of what happens in nature by evidence. The Applications of science is what determines whether or not it is nefarious. Only uneducated people think that science itself is nefarious because people who claim this are saying God is nefarious since God made nature and science is explanation of nature.
'

Even though you portray yourself as a follower of Muhammad(saw), Muhammad(saw) never taught jahiliyah that you're endorsing. Muhammad(saw) taught people to make sound judgement with logic and evidence....you're blindly following ignorance.

[کیش]

The Quraysh called the Muslims, blind followers of an illiterate man. So your slander of blind following, is lame argument. You repeated numerous times.

Islam isn't a religion, it's a way of life. Muhammad (PBUH), and all other Prophets came to show humans how to get to heaven. If you want to follow the worldly life of individuals like Darwin/Hawkings, be my guest.

Black-Magic is today's Modern Science. Obviously theirs going to be differences in the fields, but their both plots by Ibliss. If you fail to figure it out, it's your lose. Science is so strong that it has "smart" people like Hawkings, claim that god doesn't exist; as theirs no evidence of him. Stephen Hawkings is proclaimed the "smartest man in the world"

Hell will be filled with Kings, scientist and other Dunya "scholars".

[ScimitarXEdge]

The Quraish never said you're "blind followers of an illiterate" man; Muhammad(saw) was praised by the Quraish and the Quraish revered Muhammad(saw), they called Muhammad(saw) possessed by witchcraft and that he was a sorcerer.

sort of like what you were insinuating earlier.

You however are not blind following Islam; but rather ignorance which you use the name of Islam to hide behind

ISLAM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BRAINWASHING.

Science and black magic are not just different, they're completely the opposite.

Science is not stephen Hawkings, Stephen Hawkings is a scientist; his opinion on theological issues has nothing to do with Science.

Stop being uneducated and misinformed.


your problem is you spout your mouth about stuff you lack any education of.


Instead of learning on your own study with people who KNOW what they're talking about.

[Alchemist]

Torkham/Scimitar/other Minions

Laugh at me all you want. Yes I am ignorant. Dont say I did not warn you. I will try one last time.

During the time of Prophet Sulaymon, Weren't his people involved with sorcery? Did not he warn his people that if they continue with this act, they would be of the wrong? Who was right? If Sorcerism is of the devil, what difference does it make to science? The people who practice Sorcery don't do anything wrong, They are trying to get knowledge. Isn't that the purpose of "Modern Science"? They have the same excuses you do, to continue their quest for worldly "Knowledge"

Practicing Sorcery can help/harm people can they not? modern science can help/harm people can they not?

Think about it...

Allah mentions in the Qur'an (literally) that Jesus peace be upon him fashioned birds from clay, and by His will they came to life. When you ask them about this ...they say ..."well...that is irrelevant, I don't wish to talk about that". Why? Because they deny the "ayat" proofs of Allah...i.e His Miracles. These extremist won't even believe that Isra and Miraj happened let alone the miracle of Jesus's birth. You may have missed that discussion...but scimitar actually plays with the idea that Maryam (radiallah anha) wasn't even a virgin. He actually takes reference from jewish sources ...the same jews that plotted to kill Isa ibn maryam (alihi salam). They are not even ready to talk to you about what evidence there is to support evolution. They are merely posturing because they themselves are subservient to The Western System through their "Education/indoctrination/brainwashing". When Allah has already said that "ina mathalee Isa inda allahi ka mathalee Adam...khalaqahu min turabin faqala kun fayakun"..The similitude of Jesus to Allah is the similitude of Adam ..He created Him from dust and said to be, and he was. So if Torkham thinks Adam is a figuritive "icon" then does that mean that Jesus was not real? It's ironic that these two both hold themselves to be champions of rational. But when you press them on simple logic that is present in the Qur'an they get all confused. I am actually more baffled by Torkham, who lives in an arabic country and says he doesn't understand arabic or even Qur'an enough to know who Adam is in the Qur'an. Doesn't Allah mention in the Qur'an "Ya bani Adam"? (Oh son of Adam). Does it make sense for Adam to be a plural for "mankind" and used in the context of "oh son of mankind"? Why make such extreme bends in logic to stay in line with the majorities (westerns) consensus? You are right ... in saying that they are in line with the Dajjal's plan, because the Dajjal is the biggest deceiver of all time. If people like scimitar and torkham can fall for him, then just attests to how skillful the enemies of the deen are. Remember that prophets were sent to humanity to remind them of their purpose ...the theory of evolution puts into people's mind that Nature has a will of it's own...so in the conventional language of the believers of darwin you hear them say "Nature has ascribed such and such function through years of evolution"...instead of saying "Allah has ..." They mean to say that Allah cannot operate outside the realm of "physics" (Nature). If you press them on "What is Nature"...they can't even define it. In truth their stance isn't new, but classical. When mariam aliha salam came back to her people, they wouldn't believe that she had conceived a child without a male impregnating her, which is why the infant Jesus spoke from his cradle to defend his mother's honor. But if you press them on this ... you know what they say? "Religion is farcical". They are not saying that "Creationism is farcical"...rather the idea of A Creator is Farcical to them. How can He create something out of Nothing? A female carries only 23 of chromosomes in each egg from the day of her conception, and the ovum will not turn into a zygote in the absence of sperm, the other 23 chromes, and the chain reaction that proceeds after...so if you press to ask him on that...you know what he says? He says...that doesn't matter. Why? Because "Creationism is farcical".
Have you noticed that up until this point, I have been the only one who has discussed "the science" (Or lack of science) in evolution...citing papers, and posing questions on all the gaps... but torkham, who doesn't even know what evolution is, doesn't bother with the facts, he just goes by faith in the system (if harvard says so, it must be true). And what does scimitar say to you? The ulama of deen don't know any better...scientists know best. Here we see them subordinating Qur'an to "Scientificism"...Evolution is a mythology. It is a "historic science" which is purely conjectural and subjective ...yet still they will go by it as if it is The Truth. What is worse than denying an Attribute of Allah? To say that He is not Al Khaliq? What does it mean to say that He is The Creator? "Yakhluqu ma yasha" ...He creates whatever He wills. That means there is no constraints for Him. It is contradictory to this statement to believe that Creation is subject to "random mutation". The word random implies a lack of design...that is why Nature determines what will "Survive" and Allah will "randomize" a bunch of creation...hoping that one trait will work to her whims (auzubillah). This is the real implication of the theory....but they won't even discuss that with you. How do you know someone is brainwashed? You brainwash a person by implanting in them an idea, that is not their own, but treated as their own without them having the ability to question or know of it being there. That "command" that is implemented there is not accessible to their consciousness because it only resides in their subconscious. It doesn't appeal to the "mind" but to the "heart". There is no questioning of "the evidence"...rather there is a filtration for a need to rationalize the impulse. He clings to a part of phrase ...like ..."created FROM water" ..."created in stages" but doesn't look at the context and it in relation to other verses "created from sperm, clay, dust"...and stages specifically defined as sperm, embryo, fetus, infant, child, man...Why does Dr. Ahmad Israr even condone this theory? Because he too has literally been "institutionalized". The university setting demands for conformity...and if you don't believe that evidence against evolution is systematically suppressed in academia, watch the documentary by ben stein "Expelled". The proof that they are indoctrinated is in their attitude towards "Creationism" (Religion) ...which is a mock up of the western attitude and it's history with The Church. The attitude that Science and Religion are incompatible ...and the blame being put on the Ulama who beg to differ with the "Scientists"....which they aspire to be (professors)....people in the know ..which is why he continually tries to mock you as being "Uneducated"..or not "Brainwashed".

[khushal]

I am not with doubts, no interpretations, or some Muslim who picked up the Quran and needs a scholar. I have only warned you about it. what happens after; however, its up to you to figure out.

Isn't the Sorcery example related to modern science? Am talking about the real hard ones, like being able to communicate with Jinns. The black-magic of Sulaymon's time was powerful, am not talking about modern day Psychics, Astrologers, and Numerologists. You could use Black-Magic for good, who knows what those people were able to do. Modern Science is the same. Are you denying the negatives of science? The X amount of people killed, the pollution and deforestation. The list can go on and on.

Hold on here. You actually believe in Black Magic. It is Shirk to believe in Black Magic. Only Allah(swa) has these powers. To believe that humans or any other creatures of Allah(swa) has these powers is a Mashrikeen.

Sorcerers would deceive and manipulate naive people in to believing their bogus powers and bogus magic would lead them away from God. Such act and beliefs is considered evil and Satanic.


(Reported by Al-Bazzar and Abu Ya`la)“Anyone who goes to a diviner, a practitioner of magic or a soothsayer, asking something and believing in what he says, denies what was revealed to Muhammad.”

[کیش]

Very informative post Alchemist.

Khusal
Black-Magic has been around for a very long period of time. You don't have to belief it, but it's their like Science. Those two examples I used on how the Ibliss can deceive people to fall from the straight path.

Scimitar
Your a fool, I thought you were a smart man. You bolster how educated you are, then go ahead. Preach how Man envolved from apes to humans. I wanna know how they transformed.

[ScimitarXEdge]

again they evolved by successive changes to the genes over generations and natural selection, the ones who had gene changes best suited for their environment ended up laying the foundations of one species turning into another species by drifting away from their parent species to the point they can no longer effectively mate with the other species.

You're brainwashed if you think evidence we can actually SEE and OBSERVE in the TANGIBLE UNIVERSE is trumped by superstitious babble from Mullahs who sit on their couches rubbing their bellies.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Khushal brilliant, Shaitan has no powers he can only "whisper" he can't do anything, Kaish is commiting shirk by attributing powers to Shaitan.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Alchemist you post pseudo science all from CREATIONIST sources which are not peer reviewed with researched data. This is Equivalent to citing Star Wars or Star Trek as your evidence.

And worst your understanding of their content is so poor it cannot even qualify as a scientific response.

perfect example is your statement that 1 year to a human is 10,000 years to a microbe. Not only absurdly irrelevant but groundless.

This Emotional Blackmail tactic of trying to portray Natural Evidence as some sort of Western Ideological Construct is pure jahiliyah. As Truth is Universal and is not under the ownership of any culture. This sort of antiscientific animus demonstrates ignorance, lack of education and hypocrisy.

If you were against the control of Western societal constructs, get rid of your Subway sandwich shop first, not bad mouth science with absurdities.