Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[ozymandias]

well recently its been proven by studies that belief in a higher power is an inherent human trait. its disbelief that is unnatural to human beings.

Actually, no. It has been proven that faith in your parents, and what they teach is inherent. Studies time after time have shown that children need to be taught to look for supernatural explanations.

[ozymandias]

Quran uses the word FITRAH(PURE NATURE)SO CHILDREN ARE BORN CLEAN PURE BELIEVERS.

Got any actual evidence?

[ozymandias]

Biggest proof is surah al imran , where Isa salam pbuh spoke as a newborn to protect him mother.

So no, you don't have any proof.

[ozymandias]

45. (Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."

Off topic. First of all, this doesn't even claim one child was born a believer -- it claims that he will speak to the people in the 'cradle and in manhood' -- that he would speak to people of all ages -- unless something was lost in translation. That said, this is one person specifically, not all people, and is a *very* special case.

[ozymandias]

Believer is purity ,free of sin, a child is free of sin a parent society turns a child a into what ever they later become, the main thing is the soul the soul is created way before the child was born or created, they say you can't stop the souls that allah swt has destined to come into the world ,the soul is the believer but over time with the wrong surroundings the child grows up starts to sin it needs guidance to bring it back to right path so if everyone was innocent we wouldn't need anything everything would be pure and simple , but we lose our purity our innocence as we out grow our childhood, that's when we are accountable for our sins before that we are natural believers ,naturally pure and simple free of sin.

So, other than pulling this out of your ass, do you have any evidence?

So if you look at it the child is the best believer among us, a child's prayer is accepted far more better than a adult's who's thinking all sort's in that all sorts we doubt things we think malice jealousy vilolence ect: the sins are endless

Ok, so prove that *ANY* prayers are answered -- and then prove the rates for various ages -- and then prove that adult prayers and children's prayers are substantially the same (i.e. children are not praying for a piece of candy while an adult is praying for a promotion), and then we can talk. Until that point, you are once again making things up.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias. I've often wondered if we take one scientific viewpoint that life is just a chance thing that happened on this planet but that all it comes down to is bags of chemical reactions. On this planet that is part of a solar system/galaxy expanding out into vast universal space along some haphazard evolutionary path, why should we bother with human-made concepts that don't affect the inevitability of the power of the universe?

Why would humans care about each other or the survival of the planet? What is it to be driven by conscience? That's what separates us from other life forms. Animals/plants for example don't have a conscience like people do. Arguably they are just bags of chemicals that happen to be 'alive', but humans are more than that. So what is conscience if some aspect of it is not about searching for God?

You ask a lot of different things here, so bear with me: conscience is just an evolutionary advantage that allows us a much better chance at survival. Mankind, by being conscious was able to deliberately adapt to it's environment, and to deliberately adapt it's environment to itself. That's enough right there to explain it, but we can continue.

Caring about others, and the survival of the planet *also* have an evolutionary basis. If you care about others, and work with others, rather than compete with everyone, you are able to provide a more secure environment for yourself and your children. This is clearly an eveolutionary advantage -- and caring for the planet is just an extension of that, as well as the drive to leave your children a secure place to live.

There are a lot more interactions going on, though -- like the fact that we appear to be hard wired to find similarities and differences between people and to related to those like ourselves, and build a community with them. Or the fact that humans appear hard wired to have certain reactions to the facial features ob babies -- large heads, small noses, and large eyes tend to evoke a particular reaction -- and this reaction holds true with the young of other animals as well.

[ozymandias]

A: Indeed Allah has the knowledge of The Hour (time of the Day of Judgment) and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs (before the fetus is made) and no soul knows what is going to earn tomorrow (what will happen) and no soul knows in what land it is going to die; Indeed Allah is All-Knowledgeable, All-Expert.
Translation of: Ayah 34, Surat Luqman.
Words: Indahu = He has, Ilm = Knowledge, AlSa'ah = The Hour - Day of Judgment, Yunazil = Sends down, Ghay(s)th = Rain, Ya'lam = Knows, Ar'ham = Wombs, Tadri = Knows, Nafs = Soul, Taksib = Earns, Ghad = Tomorrow, Ardh = Land, Tamout = Dies.

Off topic.

[graveyardofempires]

Ozy
how about you stop being arrogant and intolerant?
its funny how you try to tell me to be tolerant while you dont even know about your own intolerance.

when she says the Quran says so is because Quran is a book of facts and not theories.

Babies are born believers because they do not commit sins in the belly of their mother neither they do when they are of small age.
it is when their parents make them eat pork and encourage them to do things which are prohibited by Allah.

so a kid being a believer is the most logical thing to say and saying a kid being disbeliever is total non sense cuz the kid was created by Allah and he is in his natural state when in belly or up until young age.

[ozymandias]

irrelevant

but i thought we were all given an equal chance to redeem ourselves..

long story shot, children are not born believers in islam or God. they are pious and innocent no doubt but that is about it.
good night

What is a believer , it means not to think up sin,

No, it means to *know about something* and to *think that something is true*

You cannot just make up false definitions of words to back up your claims.

why do we prayer whats in the salah we read, in all the salahs we read in arabic we are asking allah swt to guide us ,to purify us ,to make us better people ,to stop the sins we do or think, so there children are the natural purity free of sin what causes disaster sin if we are free of sin we are believers we wont cause harm to no one we wont commit any wrong.

Wow. Just... Wow. Belief itself does not stop sin.

[graveyardofempires]

believe means being consious about the truth ,disbelief is when you want to avoid the truth for material wishes.

Belief does stop your from sin cuz belief comes with sets of rules and norms.
for example : you believe in "freedom" as if it were something limiteless ,while i believe in freedom where i set the limits. if we were to take your version of freedom serious than i can be disrespectful to you all i want and you cant limit my freedom to be disrespectful and even freedom to spit in your face everytime i see you,but in my freedom i would have limits which tells me what i should and not do to be a good person towards another person.

thats why what you are claiming is false cuz you are talking about open mindness while the first thing you do when you come here you is closing your mind for different views and rejecting them cuz they arent compareable to your sets of beliefs.

[ozymandias]

Ozy
how about you stop being arrogant and intolerant?

Let me know when I start, and I will try to stop.

its funny how you try to tell me to be tolerant while you dont even know about your own intolerance.

What am I doing that is intolerant? Offering my opinion? Answering questions? Asking you to abide by the rules of this forum?

Or is it simply that I have an opinion different than yours?

when she says the Quran says so is because Quran is a book of facts and not theories.

You cannot use that as justification in an argument with a non-believer, though. You need to use something that is either agreed upon by both parties as true, or something that can be independently verified. I don't believe the Koran is anything other than a book, so claiming something is proven by the Koran carries no merit to me. Not only that, but anything that is true in the Koran would, by definition, be provable without the Koran.

She is making claims about all babies being born believers, and science shows her that she is wrong -- and it appears that even using the Koran, she is unable to prove her point, so let's move on.

Babies are born believers because they do not commit sins in the belly of their mother neither they do when they are of small age.

A) Babies don't do *ANYTHING* in the womb, other than twitch around and wait for birth

B) Young infants are not much better -- they eat, sleep, and poop. That's about it.

C) Lack of sin does not prove belief. In order for a baby to believe in a god, they must first know about that god.

it is when their parents make them eat pork and encourage them to do things which are prohibited by Allah.

This may be true -- but does nothing to prove the child believed in anything prior to that.

so a kid being a believer is the most logical thing to say

Not at all. The kid not knowing about deities is the most logical thing to say.

and saying a kid being disbeliever is total non sense cuz the kid was created by Allah and he is in his natural state when in belly or up until young age.

That's not proof of anything. Your opinion is not *proof*. Do you not understand that idea? Especially when it appears your opinion is based on a poor understanding of the word 'belief'. Belief is not a state of sinlessness, it is a state of accepting something as true, which implies you know the facts, *AND* do not reject them.

[ozymandias]

believe means being consious about the truth ,

Well, you are half right:

be·lief/biˈlēf/

Noun:

• An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
• Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

Being true or false in reality does not matter.

disbelief is when you want to avoid the truth for material wishes.

Again, half right. disbelief is when you do not believe something. Motivation, nor the fact's 'trueness' comes into play.

Belief does stop your from sin cuz belief comes with sets of rules and norms.

Belief might stop you from sinning, but lack of sin does not mean you believe. See the above definition, it should be pretty clear.

for example : you believe in "freedom" as if it were something limiteless

False. There are many limits to freedom.

,while i believe in freedom where i set the limits. if we were to take your version of freedom serious than i can be disrespectful to you all i want and you cant limit my freedom to be disrespectful

True. There is no such thing as the right to be respected.

and even freedom to spit in your face everytime i see you,

False. Your rights end where mine begin. The only time it is acceptable to infringe on the rights of someone is when it is required to do so to protect the rights of many.

but in my freedom i would have limits which tells me what i should and not do to be a good person towards another person.

Interestingly enough, I don't need religion to have the same concept of limits.

thats why what you are claiming is false cuz you are talking about open mindness while the first thing you do when you come here you is closing your mind for different views and rejecting them cuz they arent compareable to your sets of beliefs.

And the first thing *you* appeared to have done is make up some stance you *wish* I would make, and then proceeded to make up arguments against this mythical stance that I never took. I'm sorry if you cannot be bothered to actually read what I have to say, or get to know me before judging my. Perhaps one day you will be strong enough to actually read what I say, and not cower in fear.

[graveyardofempires]

Let me know when I start, and I will try to stop.


What am I doing that is intolerant? Offering my opinion? Answering questions? Asking you to abide by the rules of this forum?

Or is it simply that I have an opinion different than yours?
Thats typical atheist reponse,avoiding ,the same way with their spaghetti monster story.
as far as im concerned you can havve all the opinions you can have but that will still not make them facts.



You cannot use that as justification in an argument with a non-believer, though. You need to use something that is either agreed upon by both parties as true, or something that can be independently verified. I don't believe the Koran is anything other than a book, so claiming something is proven by the Koran carries no merit to me. Not only that, but anything that is true in the Koran would, by definition, be provable without the Koran.
Why should i?

how about you use something from a devine book?
you want me to play it along on your rules and your sources just to satisfy your needs.Like you said you didnt want someone to convert you to Islam.As far as im concerned you can believe whatever you want and you thinking that Quran is just another book? show me another book like th Quran?


She is making claims about all babies being born believers, and science shows her that she is wrong -- and it appears that even using the Koran, she is unable to prove her point, so let's move on.
since babies dont commit sin and they are pure and innocent that makes them believer in Allah and how about you prove to us that babies dont know About God?


A) Babies don't do *ANYTHING* in the womb, other than twitch around and wait for birth
How do you know they waite for their birth if according to your logic they arent doing anything and arent aware of anything?
B) Young infants are not much better -- they eat, sleep, and poop. That's about it.
Young infants dont go around killing looting plundering raping using alcohol drugs prostitutes,eat pork,be blaphemous,talk trash to their parents which means they are not sinners,unless they are taught at early age for example if the parents are talking trash to eachother the kid will pick it up.


C) Lack of sin does not prove belief. In order for a baby to believe in a god, they must first know about that god.
How can you prove this?
how do you know that a kid does not know God?



This may be true -- but does nothing to prove the child believed in anything prior to that.
How can you prove that?



Not at all. The kid not knowing about deities is the most logical thing to say.
we are nto talking about deities ,we are talking about one and only.
so before we proceed you shoudl understand that you are not having a discussion with hindus or all reliogions at once.
you are having a diussion with muslims and saying deities is being intellectually dishonest.



That's not proof of anything. Your opinion is not *proof*. Do you not understand that idea? Especially when it appears your opinion is based on a poor understanding of the word 'belief'. Belief is not a state of sinlessness, it is a state of accepting something as true, which implies you know the facts, *AND* do not reject them.

how does the word belief concerned a disbeliever?

i mean how can a disbeliever define the word belief to me?

the word beliefused as : i believe what you are saying is different than i believe in the judgement day.

if belief is a state of accepting the facts than why are you beating around the bush?

[tor_khan]

Caring about others, and the survival of the planet *also* have an evolutionary basis. If you care about others, and work with others, rather than compete with everyone, you are able to provide a more secure environment for yourself and your children. This is clearly an eveolutionary advantage -- and caring for the planet is just an extension of that, as well as the drive to leave your children a secure place to live.

See the one lesson we learn from evolution is that the fittest survive - generosity doesn't come into it. If we accept that line of thinking, then who knows, in the due course of time, humans might (and should?) be replaced. In evolutionary terms, few will go on past their ability to adapt and survive.
Whilst many sophisticated life forms have an instinct of 'care' for the young (and sometimes old) of their species, it's pointless being sentimental about species demise.

This doesn't rest comfortably with humans, even if it is inevitable. Why, I wonder? Unless we are here completely by fluke and accident, many of us subscribe to the idea of our existence as being part of a purpose that goes beyond simplistic evolutionary theories.

[ozymandias]

Thats typical atheist reponse,avoiding ,the same way with their spaghetti monster story.
as far as im concerned you can havve all the opinions you can have but that will still not make them facts.

Then we agree.

Why should i?

Because you will never convince the other side if you do not use something they believe is true to justify your statements.

how about you use something from a devine book?

Because there are no divine books.

you want me to play it along on your rules and your sources just to satisfy your needs.

Well, unless we have some middle ground upon which we agree, there is no point in even having a discussion. We might as well both be speaking a language the other does not understand if there is no middle ground.

Like you said you didnt want someone to convert you to Islam.As far as im concerned you can believe whatever you want and you thinking that Quran is just another book? show me another book like th Quran?

The bible. The book of mormon. Harry Potter. The Torah. Lord of the Rings. Epic of Gilgamesh. The Veda. I am not attempting to be insulting, but you asked.

since babies dont commit sin and they are pure and innocent that makes them believer in Allah

See the definition of 'belief'. I have already proven this wrong.

and how about you prove to us that babies dont know About God?

Ok. If we are all born knowing about Allah, how come we need someone to teach us about him? Logically, if what you say is true, there woul dbe no need for prophets, and all children would be born Islamic -- and would have to forget what they know in order to be re-taught. There is no evidence of this in any scientific study.

How do you know they waite for their birth if according to your logic they arent doing anything and arent aware of anything?

I do not understand. They wait for birth because they don't just pop out as soon as the egg is fertilized. There is about 9 months between the two events, which obviously means time passes....

Young infants dont go around killing looting plundering raping using alcohol drugs prostitutes,eat pork,be blaphemous,talk trash to their parents which means they are not sinners,unless they are taught at early age for example if the parents are talking trash to eachother the kid will pick it up.

That's because they are not *PHYSICALLY ABLE TO DO SO*. Aside from that pretty important point, lack of sin does not mean belief. I did none of those things yesterday, so by your insane definition, I would have been a believer yesterday. That's just asinine.

How can you prove this?

With the definition of the word 'belief', and the context of this discussion. The word belief does *not* mean 'lack of sin', it means 'knowledge and acceptance that that knowledge is true'.

how do you know that a kid does not know God?

See above.

How can you prove that?

Easily. See above.

we are nto talking about deities ,we are talking about one and only.

And the 'one and only' is a deity.

[quote]

so before we proceed you shoudl understand that you are not having a discussion with hindus or all reliogions at once.
you are having a diussion with muslims and saying deities is being intellectually dishonest.

[quote]

Intellectually dishonest? Not at all. I think your understanding of English caused you to misunderstand what I said. My statement is true about any and all deities, not just the one you believe in.

how does the word belief concerned a disbeliever?

I don't understand the question.

i mean how can a disbeliever define the word belief to me?

Easily. The definition is in a dictionary, and exists outside the scope of a person's belief in a god.

the word beliefused as : i believe what you are saying is different than i believe in the judgement day.

Could you please restate this? I do not understand what you are trying to say.

if belief is a state of accepting the facts than why are you beating around the bush?

Belief has nothing to do with facts. You can believe in something regardless if it is true or false.