Ask an American, agnostic and atheist man pretty much anything

[ozymandias]

See the one lesson we learn from evolution is that the fittest survive - generosity doesn't come into it.

Not true at all. Generosity is easily an evolutionarily learned trait. You could say that it would be generous for a chimp not to attack young that is not it's own -- but it also means that the other parent would not seek revenge -- and would be generous by not taking an opportunity to attack it's own young.

Being generous to my friends, means that I now have a social group. If someone were to attack me, my friends would protect me.

Being generous to other people means that other people will like me, and attempt not to hurt or attack me.

Not only that, but as a society, generosity is a good thing. If a society values feeding the poor, more members of that society will survive hard times, for instance.

I can go on and on, but social traits are easily covered by evolution.

If we accept that line of thinking, then who knows, in the due course of time, humans might (and should?) be replaced. In evolutionary terms, few will go on past their ability to adapt and survive.
Whilst many sophisticated life forms have an instinct of 'care' for the young (and sometimes old) of their species, it's pointless being sentimental about species demise.

I agree.

This doesn't rest comfortably with humans, even if it is inevitable. Why, I wonder? Unless we are here completely by fluke and accident, many of us subscribe to the idea of our existence as being part of a purpose that goes beyond simplistic evolutionary theories.

There is nothing 'simplistic' about evolution, other than the common understanding of it. It is a very complicated concept.

There are many scientific theories as to where religion came from, and interestingly enough evolution is one of them, but that is a digression. The fact that something is commonly believed does not make it true. At one point, it was commonly believed the world was flat -- and we all know that is not true.

[graveyardofempires]

[QUOTE=ozymandias;525492]Then we agree.



Because you will never convince the other side if you do not use something they believe is true to justify your statements.
But you said in your first post that you didnt want to be convinced.



Because there are no divine books.

thats your opinion,how about the content of the book?


Well, unless we have some middle ground upon which we agree, there is no point in even having a discussion. We might as well both be speaking a language the other does not understand if there is no middle ground.

What middle ground are we talking about?
here is the middle ground but your refuse to have understanding for why others do belief and try to portray them as being backward for doing so.Hence the atheist quote "i may be openminded but not so much that my brains fall out of my sckull".


The bible. The book of mormon. Harry Potter. The Torah. Lord of the Rings. Epic of Gilgamesh. The Veda. I am not attempting to be insulting, but you asked.

You are being insulting but hey you are an atheist and have no understanding of Islam and might be confused about your own belief.
How can you say those books are like Quran?Explain further.



See the definition of 'belief'. I have already proven this wrong.

Thats your atheistic defination ,just like deity.According to you the word deity is something which is like having a football club you support.so everyone has their own deity etc.


Ok. If we are all born knowing about Allah, how come we need someone to teach us about him? Logically, if what you say is true, there woul dbe no need for prophets, and all children would be born Islamic -- and would have to forget what they know in order to be re-taught. There is no evidence of this in any scientific study.

How about your science prove to us that its not the case?
and what you call science is what i call anti scinece cuz you are denying the possibility.

Now Prove to me why this kid from a non muslim family was reciting Quran and praying when he was one and knew around 4 languages and memorised whole quran when he was 4?
Child Imam Dua - Sheikh Khalifa Sherifdeen - YouTube
5-year-old Tanzanian boy converts thousands of people to Islam - YouTube


I do not understand. They wait for birth because they don't just pop out as soon as the egg is fertilized. There is about 9 months between the two events, which obviously means time passes....

Waiting means they are thinking to do something,how do you knwo that they arent feelign that will stay in the womb forever and that is their reality?
thats why they cry when they are out(joking).

That's because they are not *PHYSICALLY ABLE TO DO SO*. Aside from that pretty important point, lack of sin does not mean belief. I did none of those things yesterday, so by your insane definition, I would have been a believer yesterday. That's just asinine.

Spare me the personal attacks(another typical atheist method when having a discussion).

They would do the same when they grow up and are physically fit to do so cuz they might have been taught some norms and rules.

Yesterday you werent a believer like you arent today.
you remind of this kid eating as much pork as possible cuz the muslims dont eat it whiel not knowing that he is actually helping create a health problem for himself.



With the definition of the word 'belief', and the context of this discussion. The word belief does *not* mean 'lack of sin', it means 'knowledge and acceptance that that knowledge is true'.

its true and knowledge of truth and acceptance of that knowledge leads to reduction in sin.total lack of sin is impossible.

See above.

saw the above and there is no proof.


Easily. See above.
?


And the 'one and only' is a deity.

the One and Only is Allah
[quote]

[/B][B]so before we proceed you shoudl understand that you are not having a discussion with hindus or all reliogions at once.
you are having a diussion with muslims and saying deities is being intellectually dishonest.

Intellectually dishonest? Not at all. I think your understanding of English caused you to misunderstand what I said. My statement is true about any and all deities, not just the one you believe in.

thats called being dishonest,i just told you you werent discussing with people who believed in deities but one and only yet you try to have a poke at it and put all in one.


I don't understand the question.

How do you knwo the defination of belief or believing while you are a non believer,i mean your defination would be irrelevant when we are talking abotu religion.

Easily. The definition is in a dictionary, and exists outside the scope of a person's belief in a god.

in dictionary the
be·lief (b-lf)n.1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
belief [bɪˈliːf]n1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc., accepted as true
2. opinion; conviction
3. religious faith
4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc


the dictionary puts religious faith as an irrelevant meaning of the word belief and puts many others forth while to me the other definations are irrlevant.




Could you please restate this? I do not understand what you are trying to say.

what im trying to say is to you the word belief means something else and since you dont believe in the one and only you use the word belief losely.



Belief has nothing to do with facts. You can believe in something regardless if it is true or false.

Ok so you know the facts yet you want to believe whatever you want cuz you can right?

[ozymandias]

But you said in your first post that you didnt want to be convinced.

Convinced and converted are two different words. I am not here to be converted, but to hold a discussion.

thats your opinion,how about the content of the book?

See above.Already answered.

What middle ground are we talking about?

The middle ground is the ground we both have in common. Without this, no conversation can take place.

here is the middle ground but your refuse to have understanding for why others do belief and try to portray them as being backward for doing so.Hence the atheist quote "i may be openminded but not so much that my brains fall out of my sckull".

Huh? Who said you were backwards? Please stop makign up things and pretending I said them. It's demeaning to us both.

You are being insulting but hey you are an atheist and have no understanding of Islam and might be confused about your own belief.
How can you say those books are like Quran?Explain further.

You asked. I stated the answer in the least insulting way I know how. If you are insulted, that is your own fault. All books are the same in some regards. These books are all thick. They are all popular. They all contain magic and superstition. They all describe a world that is not *quite* like the one we live in. They all made the authors famous.

Thats your atheistic defination ,just like deity.According to you the word deity is something which is like having a football club you support.so everyone has their own deity etc.

I must insist that you stop making up lies about what I believe. It really does not help the conversation for you to lie about what I have said. Isn't lying a sin? Or is that garbage about it being "ok to lie to the non-believer' actually true, in your mind? Most Muslims I have talked to have said that verse is out of context.

How about your science prove to us that its not the case?
and what you call science is what i call anti scinece cuz you are denying the possibility.

At least this time you admit you are making things up. It is not the job of science to disprove your extraordinary claims. You make the claim, you prove it.

Now Prove to me why this kid from a non muslim family was reciting Quran and praying when he was one and knew around 4 languages and memorised whole quran when he was 4?

Prove to me that the video is not faked.

Waiting means they are thinking to do something,how do you knwo that they arent feelign that will stay in the womb forever and that is their reality?
thats why they cry when they are out(joking).

How's that fistful of straws treating you?

Spare me the personal attacks(another typical atheist method when having a discussion).

They would do the same when they grow up and are physically fit to do so cuz they might have been taught some norms and rules.

Yesterday you werent a believer like you arent today.
you remind of this kid eating as much pork as possible cuz the muslims dont eat it whiel not knowing that he is actually helping create a health problem for himself.

Huh? Please restate. I am not sure what you are trying to say. One minute you are saying that not sinning makes you a believer, but the next you are saying that is not true. Which is it?

its true and knowledge of truth and acceptance of that knowledge leads to reduction in sin.total lack of sin is impossible.

saw the above and there is no proof.

?

I already answered these questions -- not more than a handful of posts ago. You can look back to find the answers, or crack open a dictionary if you need to. I am not repeating myself to you, as you are clearly refusing to even read what I am posting.

the One and Only is Allah

You may think so. If the 'one and only' is Allah, or if the 'one and only' is *not* Allah, either way, Allah is a deity.

de·i·ty/ˈdē-itē/

Noun:

• A god or goddess: "a deity of ancient Greece".
• Divine status, quality, or nature: "a ruler driven by delusions of deity".

thats called being dishonest,i just told you you werent discussing with people who believed in deities but one and only yet you try to have a poke at it and put all in one.

And I have repeatedly told you that your god, any god, is also called a deity. The word deity is a word that means "a god". Just like you are a poster on this board, you are also a human. There is nothing 'dishonest' about using a word according to it's definition. Deity is a classification. Just like a person from Afghan is an Afghan, and a person from the US is an American, a god is a deity.

How do you knwo the defination of belief or believing while you are a non believer,i mean your defination would be irrelevant when we are talking abotu religion.

A believer and a non-believer can both use a dictionary. I still don't understand why you think that belief in a deity is required to understand the English language.

in dictionary the
be·lief (b-lf)n.1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.
belief [bɪˈliːf]n1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc., accepted as true
2. opinion; conviction
3. religious faith
4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc


the dictionary puts religious faith as an irrelevant meaning of the word belief and puts many others forth while to me the other definations are irrlevant.

So you are wrong. Consider this a free lesson in the English language. Those are all parts of the definition of a word -- and no one said any of that is irrelevant.

what im trying to say is to you the word belief means something else and since you dont believe in the one and only you use the word belief losely.

No, I use it correctly. You are trying to use the word to mean something so narrow that the dictionaries don't even agree with you. The word 'belief' is not nearly as narrow as you make it out to be. You will be *very* hard pressed to find a dictionary that even has 'sin' as part of the definition of 'belief'.

Ok so you know the facts yet you want to believe whatever you want cuz you can right?

I am going to assume that you mistranslated this -- because what you actually wrote is far too incomprehensible to be deliberate. I have already stated repeatedly that belief is not a matter of choice, nor is it a matter of what is true or false -- it is simply a matter of what you *think* is true or false.

As an aside, could you please make an effort to format your posts? This random format makes it very hard to read.

[goblin]

I would like to ask you the following:

You are an atheist/agnostic, etc.
I assume you are White by race and it is highly possible that you drink alcohol.

my question to you is,

do you think the minimum drinking age (21) in the usa is absurdly high compared to 18 in most countries?

[ozymandias]

I would like to ask you the following:

You are an atheist/agnostic, etc.
I assume you are White by race

This is correct.

and it is highly possible that you drink alcohol.

Only in moderation, and this is unrelated to my atheism. I come from a religious family that drinks, and I did pick up these behaviors from them, and society.

In the interest of full disclosure, I consume 1-2 alcoholic beverages a month, on average.

my question to you is,

do you think the minimum drinking age (21) in the usa is absurdly high compared to 18 in most countries?

Yes. I think that setting a drinking age at *all* was actually a bad idea. It turns out that in the USA, turning 21 is often a big deal to people, as it is the first time they can legally drink, and often over indulge -- and even before then, the fact that it is illegal only adds to the appeal. Many people are interested in drinking because they are told not to. Countries that do not make a big deal out of drinking tend to have lower frequency of teen drinking, and it eliminates that "I'm finally 21, let's go drink legally" mentality.

As a final note, in all other respects, you are legally an adult at 18. You can smoke, you can legally enter contracts, you can buy a firearm, you can drop out of public schools, be tried as an adult for crimes, and you can serve in the military. If they are old enough to decide to join the military, they are, by any reasonable measure, old enough to decide if they want to drink or not.

[goblin]

Thank you for answering.

Another question:


Why in your signature, is there a Persian sentence explaining that you don't speak Arabic?

[ozymandias]

Thank you for answering.

Another question:


Why in your signature, is there a Persian sentence explaining that you don't speak Arabic?

I am trying to be considerate, and accommodate those that do not speak English very well. I translated that using Google translate to help those that ask me things in Arabic, or mixed Arabic/English. I would hate to see language issues cause additional confusion.

Would the following be more correct or appropriate?
أنا آسف ، أنا لا أقرأ أو لا يتكلم اللغة العربية. وسوف تبذل جهدا لترجمة مع ترجمة جوجل. يرجى أن يكون فهم من هذا الحاجز.
(I'm sorry, I do not read or speak Arabic. I will make an effort to translate with Google translate. Please be understanding of this barrier.)

[graveyardofempires]

Convinced and converted are two different words. I am not here to be converted, but to hold a discussion.

you dont want to be convinced either and im not here to convince you or convert you.Holding a discussion is great

See above.Already answered.

See above is pointing me to something written by you which is not clear enough.you need to elaborate.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]The middle ground is the ground we both have in common. Without this, no conversation can take place.[/QUOTE]

We both believe we breath oxygen(air),do we?


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]Huh? Who said you were backwards? Please stop makign up things and pretending I said them. It's demeaning to us both.[/QUOTE]

Thats what atheists think about people who are religious.


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]You asked. I stated the answer in the least insulting way I know how. If you are insulted, that is your own fault. All books are the same in some regards. These books are all thick. They are all popular. They all contain magic and superstition. They all describe a world that is not *quite* like the one we live in. They all made the authors famous.[/QUOTE]

How me being insulted by you is my fault? maybe its out of your ignorance or it is a cultural thing,not that you dont have the right to insult.

Quran is hardly as thick as the bible and you can also have it in MP3 or PDF format.

Magic and superstition? where did people get the idea of Magic since you believe these books were authored by people?
Can you explain how Quran doesnt discribe the world as we live in it?

you are right you tried the less insulting way which still is kind of insulting.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]I must insist that you stop making up lies about what I believe. It really does not help the conversation for you to lie about what I have said. Isn't lying a sin? Or is that garbage about it being "ok to lie to the non-believer' actually true, in your mind? Most Muslims I have talked to have said that verse is out of context.[/QUOTE]

I dont make up lies i just assume after hearing so many atheist using the "spaghetti monster" line.
yes lying is a sin but you dont believe anyway so why would you care?Ok now tell em the truth.


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]At least this time you admit you are making things up. It is not the job of science to disprove your extraordinary claims. You make the claim, you prove it.[/QUOTE]

Now you actually made the claim that Quran is a book like any other book with magic and superstition.so you need to prove to me.
I dont make the claim ,its stated in the Book and if you can you should challenge it.


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]Prove to me that the video is not faked. [/QUOTE]


Prove is the walking talking picture of the kid who knows whole Quran by heart and has had christian parents and he started by himself praying at the age of one and he speaks 4 or 5 languages and speaks with utmost knowledge and respect.

Prove to me that it was faked than we can discuss the parts you think were faked.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]How's that fistful of straws treating you?[/QUOTE]

Straws?Straw man's argument? sorry i dont know what that exactly means and neither does it apply to me.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]Huh? Please restate. I am not sure what you are trying to say. One minute you are saying that not sinning makes you a believer, but the next you are saying that is not true. Which is it?[/QUOTE]

How in the hell does not sining make you a believer ,if you are grown up and you sin yet you believe that does not make you a non believer,it makes you a sinner cuz to understand you sinned you need to be a believer first.some peopel might not sin yet they could be non believers.
as for the babies they arent obliged to pray and they do not fully understand or are able to sin.



QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]I already answered these questions -- not more than a handful of posts ago. You can look back to find the answers, or crack open a dictionary if you need to. I am not repeating myself to you, as you are clearly refusing to even read what I am posting.[/QUOTE]

When you write something here it gets challenged and you cant escape the challenge by saying look at my previous posts as if your previous posts are words carved in stones.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]You may think so. If the 'one and only' is Allah, or if the 'one and only' is *not* Allah, either way, Allah is a deity.

de·i·ty/ˈdē-itē/

Noun:

• A god or goddess: "a deity of ancient Greece".
• Divine status, quality, or nature: "a ruler driven by delusions of deity". [/QUOTE]

This is not accurate cuz it mentions it according to greek mythology and does not apply to Allah.

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]And I have repeatedly told you that your god, any god, is also called a deity. The word deity is a word that means "a god". Just like you are a poster on this board, you are also a human. There is nothing 'dishonest' about using a word according to it's definition. Deity is a classification. Just like a person from Afghan is an Afghan, and a person from the US is an American, a god is a deity.[/QUOTE]

But thats when you fail to realise that the word deity can hardly be used for Allah.I dont think you understand fully or you are just not cooperating to understand.

you want to have a discussion with Pashtuns but you are trying to have us first accept and use a word for Allah which doesnt apply to him.Plus according to you we need to understand that Allah is just another what you call gods?Woudl that be correct observation?


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]A believer and a non-believer can both use a dictionary. I still don't understand why you think that belief in a deity is required to understand the English language.[/QUOTE]

Just like if you were to open a dictionary some hundreds of years ago the meaning of belief would be something else.So dictionaries could also be altered and words added and deleted.


QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]So you are wrong. Consider this a free lesson in the English language. Those are all parts of the definition of a word -- and no one said any of that is irrelevant. [/QUOTE]

But where did the word come from and did it had so many menanings lets say a thousand years ago?



QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]No, I use it correctly. You are trying to use the word to mean something so narrow that the dictionaries don't even agree with you. The word 'belief' is not nearly as narrow as you make it out to be. You will be *very* hard pressed to find a dictionary that even has 'sin' as part of the definition of 'belief'.[/QUOTE]

Dictionaries nto agreeing with me does not mean anything.
sin is not the definition of the word belief.So if there isnt a dictionary with such a definition of the word belief where sin is also used lets say in a sentence.That shows the unprofesionalism of the ones responsible for the dictionary.



QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]I am going to assume that you mistranslated this -- because what you actually wrote is far too incomprehensible to be deliberate. I have already stated repeatedly that belief is not a matter of choice, nor is it a matter of what is true or false -- it is simply a matter of what you *think* is true or false. [/QUOTE]

Can you clarify what you just wrote? are we discussing the same word ""belief"?

QUOTE=ozymandias;525520]As an aside, could you please make an effort to format your posts? This random format makes it very hard to read.[/QUOTE]
Allright?

[graveyardofempires]

I am trying to be considerate, and accommodate those that do not speak English very well. I translated that using Google translate to help those that ask me things in Arabic, or mixed Arabic/English. I would hate to see language issues cause additional confusion.

Would the following be more correct or appropriate?
أنا آسف ، أنا لا أقرأ أو لا يتكلم اللغة العربية. وسوف تبذل جهدا لترجمة مع ترجمة جوجل. يرجى أن يكون فهم من هذا الحاجز.
(I'm sorry, I do not read or speak Arabic. I will make an effort to translate with Google translate. Please be understanding of this barrier.)

so when you did that you mistoke persian for arabic? or did you think arabs spoke persian?Or did you think we pashtuns actually speak arabic?

[Alchemist]

[ozymandias]

Indeed. Perhaps we can move on now?

[ozymandias]

so when you did that you mistoke persian for arabic? or did you think arabs spoke persian?Or did you think we pashtuns actually speak arabic?

I'm not sure what happened. I *think* it had to do with Google autodetecting the language on a page, and I didn't notice it selected Persion, and not Arabic.

[shehazadi]

How do you think this world came to place? Where do you get your morals from?

[Toramana]

Morals are intrinsic to our human nature....no need for an outsider agency...

[ozymandias]

you dont want to be convinced either and im not here to convince you or convert you.Holding a discussion is great

Actually, I would love for you to convince me your points are valid -- that would mean I learned something new, or was exposed to an interesting, intelligent opposing view point.

See above is pointing me to something written by you which is not clear enough.you need to elaborate.

What was unclear about my opinion of the Koran?

We both believe we breath oxygen(air),do we?

But that is not enough for the discussion to have any merit. Not only do we need to breathe the same gasses, and speak the same language, we need to agree on some facts -- otherwise we are just stating our opinions needlessly.

Thats what atheists think about people who are religious.

And all Muslims are terrorists who marry multiple underage girls. See? I can state unfounded stereotypes too. I personally don't think that even a significant number of Muslims even support terrorism, have multiple lives, or marry young girls -- but some ignorant people think that those stereotypes are true.

How me being insulted by you is my fault? maybe its out of your ignorance or it is a cultural thing,not that you dont have the right to insult.

Quran is hardly as thick as the bible and you can also have it in MP3 or PDF format.

Magic and superstition? where did people get the idea of Magic since you believe these books were authored by people?
Can you explain how Quran doesnt discribe the world as we live in it?

you are right you tried the less insulting way which still is kind of insulting.

I made an effort to be delicate around the issue. You asked for my opinion, and I can think of no other way to clearly state my opinion. I am sorry if you were insulted -- but I tried not to be insulting, but I honestly do not think that there is any way I could state that I do not believe the Koran is special without you being offended.

I dont make up lies i just assume after hearing so many atheist using the "spaghetti monster" line.
yes lying is a sin but you dont believe anyway so why would you care?Ok now tell em the truth.

I see. I'm sorry you are unwilling to have a discussion with me as a person, and would rather pretend I am some fictitious person you met elsewhere.

As for you lying, it does not matter if I believe lying is a sin (as an aside, I still believe it is immoral, but that doesn't matter), my point is that you should at least pretend to abide by your own rules.

Now you actually made the claim that Quran is a book like any other book with magic and superstition.so you need to prove to me.
I dont make the claim ,its stated in the Book and if you can you should challenge it.

Scroll up. I already pointed out cosmology and embryology above as flawed.

Also:

Prove is the walking talking picture of the kid who knows whole Quran by heart and has had christian parents and he started by himself praying at the age of one and he speaks 4 or 5 languages and speaks with utmost knowledge and respect.

Prove to me that it was faked than we can discuss the parts you think were faked.

I'm not presenting it as evidence of anything. You are. It is up to you to prove that it is valid and can be used as evidence. Sorry, but that is not how rational discussions work.

Straws?Straw man's argument? sorry i dont know what that exactly means and neither does it apply to me.

It refers to the fact that you keep making up flimsy, fictitious arguments, attributing them to me, and then claiming to rebuked them.

How in the hell does not sining make you a believer

You tell me. You are the one using the fact that children are physically unable to sin as proof they are believers in your god. I have been arguing all along that that is completely false.

,if you are grown up and you sin yet you believe that does not make you a non believer,it makes you a sinner cuz to understand you sinned you need to be a believer first.some peopel might not sin yet they could be non believers.
as for the babies they arent obliged to pray and they do not fully understand or are able to sin.

So now you admit that they do not understand -- so how can they *possibly* be believers?