Islamic reaction to radical Muslims

[imb706]

Sorry that I haven't been able to post lately, my internet connection went down and I have to use this satellite backup. Anyway, speaking of Islamic radicals and such, how do people feel about this: http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/3...enate_fails_to I can't keep up with everything said on here for obvious reasons, but I'll try.

Do you consider The USA being terrorist since our phones are wiretapped and etc?

Obviously I'm against wiretapping, but it's not terrorism.

[imb706]

Well, yeah, you're right, sorry if I seemed to be trying to derail the thread. Yeah, Southern California experienced some heavy winds recently, disrupted phone and internet connections. I have this satellite backup for now though. I'm just fine though :D Thanks for the concern.

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias I understand where you are coming from now.


Let me make this clear,
You are willing to support us Muslims as long as its peaceful protests?

Not only will I, I have. I have gone to protests in my area against the war in Iraq, as well as functions at the local University to dispel the reputation Islam receives as 'violent', at the request of some of my friends. Basically a large mixer to show some of the bigots that the news is leaving a large part of the stories out.

[ozymandias]

I was about to message you dude, I was worried in what happened to you.

I think that deserves its own thread. Lets not sidetrack this one. I heard Ozymandias Is very strict with his threads.

I'd like to think I am not terribly strict -- I just try to stay on topic.

[ozymandias]

Wow, you have no clue how much your response made me happy.


But if you are so supportive of Islam, why don't you convert? Are you facing misconceptions?

Don't get me wrong -- it's not that I am supportive of Islam, I am supportive of my friends, and the 'underdog'. To be fair. I am much more active as an atheist than anything else.

I am not interested in converting, as I see no reason to follow any religion at all, but I am very interested in understanding what motivates those around me -- religion is a big motivator, and the only way to understand the world fully is to understand religion.

[ozymandias]

Well, without religion where do you expect to get your morality from? Where do you get your moral facts from?



Its a lose-lose situation for athiests.

First of all, lets awknowledge that this is not an argument against atheism -- even if a deity were the only valid source of morality -- it does not mean that atheism is untrue.

I would argue that atheists can be as moral, or more so than theists, as we are able to do the moral, right thing because it is the moral, right thing, and not because we are told that a deity would be displeased if we didn't.

Atheist morals can come from many places, not the least of which is a logical understanding of society. For instance, I consider it immoral to infringe on a persons inherent rights, as that is the best way to insure that all people get to exercise those rights -- including myself.

The same logic can apply to just about every immoral act -- I don't steal, as I do not want to support a society that steals -- as that would mean I am more likely to be the victim.

I don't commit fraud, or any number of other immoral acts for similar reasons -- it is truly not in my best interest.

An atheist is moral because human suffering matters to them, as opposed to a theist, who does what their deity commands, regardless (or inspite of) the suffering it may cause.

I would hope that everyone around me is a good person, but the argument that a person's morality only derives from their god implies that were it not for their faith, there would be nothing to stop them from murder, rape, exploitation, or any number of truly immoral things. If a person believes that the only reason they can be moral is through the help of a god, they do not consider the suffering their acts cause as justification enough to be moral.

To take this a step further, I would argue that while an atheist can be truly altruistic, Christians cannot. I am not as well versed in the beliefs of Islam, so forgive me if I make a mistake when I try to extend this discussion to include Islam:

An atheist can do good because it is good, and for no other reason -- this is altruism. A Christian, or Muslim, on the other had believes in a deity that is always watching every thing they do -- and will ultimately judge them on the deeds they have done, and how well they have lived up to the teachings of their god. This means that the only way for a Christian or Muslim to be altruistically moral would be to do something inspite of their religions teachings -- as that is the only way to do a deed for the sake of the deed and not be rewarded for it. Paradoxically, if the person believes that their action was contrary to their religion, they are not being strong in their religion -- and are acting on morals not derived from their god. On the other hand, if they are doing good, contrary to the teachings of their religion because they think their god would support their action -- they are now subject to a reward, and are not altruistic.

With Christians, I know this argument holds up, as I am well versed in how Christians see the relationship of deeds to the afterlife, and I have been led to understand Islam accepts the same basic premise -- even if the details may differ in some respects, so I would think that this argument holds up for Islam, as well.

[imb706]

Depends who you ask. I had a professor that would disagree with that. While the Holocaust violated many commonly accepted international treaties and consisted of war crimes, the goal of the Holocaust was not to cow the rest of the world into doing as the Nazi's wished through fear of terrorist acts -- the goal was a systematic genocide of 'undesirables', and thus not terrorism.

Yep, you're right there. What needs to be understood about the Holocaust, in particular the victims of the Holocaust, is that Germany have a very large and long history of Anti-Semitism and that the other victims of the Holocaust, such as Atheist, Jehovah Witnesses, Communist, Homosexuals, etc. were hated by this same culture.

and the 'underdog'.

Ack! I hate people who automatically support the "underdog." Sometimes the underdog is the worse one.

As a Muslim, I agree with that. If the Muslims really cared, The nearly 2billion population would have boycotted Israeli and American goods, and it sure would have hurt them to lose nearly 40 trading countries or more.

Well, at least someone's agreeing with me lately.

real holocaust

Ahahahaha! Isn't that what those dumbass London protesters had on their picket signs?

[ozymandias]

Ack! I hate people who automatically support the "underdog."

But the 'underdog' has a right to have their voice heard -- and in this case, like many, that voice was not getting out. Besides, I am not saying I always support the underdog, just that I tend to be more motivated to actively support the underdog, than I would be to support the 'top dog' -- as the support is more important to the underdog.

[imb706]

Everyone deserves a voice sure, but that doesn't make them good or right. Surely, the KKK, Hamas, the Tibetan exiles, these are underdogs but they aren't good.

[ozymandias]

Everyone deserves a voice sure, but that doesn't make them good or right. Surely, the KKK, Hamas, the Tibetan exiles, these are underdogs but they aren't good.

Correct -- and I would not be supporting them.

I am talking that I am more likely to support the College Muslim Alliance than I am the College Republicans -- one is an underdog having trouble making it's voice heard, and the other is an over-vocal group trying to repress the underdog.

[imb706]

But Islam means to "submit." Surely you're giving up a lot by submitting to an invisible thing.

College Muslim Alliance than I am the College Republicans

Why? I mean, they're both on the same conservative, right wing page. I don't get what you mean by that.

underdog having trouble making it's voice heard, and the other is an over-vocal group trying to repress the underdog.

Huh? What?

I want to know the whole story same for you to lmb706.

What story of me do you want to know?

[ozymandias]

ozy
you never told us what led you to become an athiest.

I'd honestly have to say I never was anything else. I once gave Christianity a fair shot, and started looking into the faith -- even went as far as some seminary as an attempt to learn more, but I never really believed, and the more I learned, the more bizarre religion seemed to me, and the less interesting the religion became -- and the more interesting the mental acrobatics believers go through became.

I want to know the whole story same for you to lmb706.


ever thought of converting to Islam?

Nope.

[ozymandias]

to Atheists,
At least when you are Muslim you have nothing to lose. when you are athiest you already gave up.

"to Theists,
At least when you are Atheist(sic) you have already won everything. when you are theist you have already lost."

You really can put anything into the slots for 'atheist' and 'Muslim' or 'theist' and it is equally true -- and equally nonsensical.

I'll be blunt, though -- I found what you said very insulting. You know very little about me, or what I believe, other than a few minor opinions of mine, such as in inalienable right of humans to free speech, and the fact that I am a very vocal advocate of life-long learning. I find the presumption that I 'gave up' downright offensive.

While I agree that you have the right to say what you want, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you simply did not realize how condescending and presumptuous that statement is. 'Giving up' implies a close mindedness, and an inability to cope with an overwhelming situation. I consider myself *very* open minded, and find I do not have any difficulty with religion or my stance on these issues -- take a look at where I am, and what I have openly admitted to believing here. Do any of my actions convey the feeling that I am overwhelmed or unable to cope with the situation I find myself in -- or does the fact that I came to a forum knowing full well that I was going to be in the minority and making several vocal stances -- and then discussing my opinions in a rational, logical way give the impression that I am comfortable and knowledgeable about what I believe, why I believe it, and the fact that I am open to discuss it?

Besides -- I find drive-by comments off-putting.

[ozymandias]

Why? I mean, they're both on the same conservative, right wing page.

The College Republicans are a very large, very vocal, very active group at my college. They have no trouble getting their voices heard, both for things I do, and do not agree with. No one is making any serious progress quieting them. The Muslim Alliance? maybe 1/8th the number of people, and having a difficult time overcoming the reputation they have concerning their faith. In fact -- at more than a few events these two groups have gone head-to-head over political or religious points of contention.

Besides, I would say that even though they are both conservative and right wing -- they are far from on the same page. If I had to use one sentence to describe the relationship between these two groups, I would have to say "They hate each other", as they disagree on many major points.

Repubs? Support the war. Support Bush. Support Fox News. Support Christianity. Many think all Muslims are terrorists. Many think that even the non-terrorist Muslims (if they admit they exist) are evil simply by not being Christian.

I think you can see the obvious contrasts to the Muslim Alliance, can't you? ;-)

[imb706]

Repubs? Support the war. Support Bush. Support Fox News. Support Christianity. Many think all Muslims are terrorists. Many think that even the non-terrorist Muslims (if they admit they exist) are evil simply by not being Christian.

Well, at least that's your standard Tea Partyer, more or less.

Besides, I would say that even though they are both conservative and right wing -- they are far from on the same page.

I never said they were, but since I don't agree with any conservative and right-wing movement, I wouldn't like either.

"They hate each other", as they disagree on many major points.

I can certainly see in the next few decades muslims going towards the Republican Party, if it stays a right-wing party anyway (it started off as a progressive party but became Right Wing in the 60s). Isn't Zalmay Khalilzad a Republican?