Sufis Are On Haq

[Alchemist]

This is preposterous ....


let me just say ...don't fool your self into thinking that the artifact, called "camera" can capture this noor!

[Catya Sher]

Thanks Pakhtun_Policy:

I was afraid your feelings had been hurt.
You put a LOT of work into collecting all these photos and info from all over.
Appreciate your answers.
I had more questions too.

I was meaning to come back to this thread when have more time.

Alchemist,
do you believe there's Nur but can't be made visible in photos?
Or you think the concept is not right?

[Alchemist]

Alchemist,
do you believe there's Nur but can't be made visible in photos?
Or you think the concept is not right?

Now, I ve never met anyone in person with this Nur - e - ellahi, i.e, Light of Allah. Such individuals are so taken up by their worship of Allah that anything they say or do is Allah's saying or doing. And like Mujib said, this Nur is experienced by your interaction with such Individual. It's not like a light bulb is flashing over their head constantly that you can see or feel. Rather their presence emanates a sort of calmness and tranquility in the atmosphere, and you could swear the Jinnies are peaceful in this person's shade. So if you take those pictures of shyukh and rearrange, and standardize, have each pose in the same way and dress the same and show the same facial expression then you would not know which is which...rather it's PP's own subjective heading that gives the false sense of holiness for one and not another. This sort of thing amounts to little more than idolization...when you give precedence to appearance over action.

[Catya Sher]

That's in sightful, ALchemist.
Would you say that perhaps those who really have the most Nur-i-Illahi [thanks for telling me that term, because I hadn't actually heard it, though I should have I'm sure] - should NOT be out there in the public but quietly with Allah [swt] all the time.
Like they should not really have zillions of murids but instead maybe only a few top spiritually qualified ones?

I'm trying to figure this whole Sufi thing out.
Some parts seem good and some I think are not right.
You HIT IT ON THE HEAD about the idolization : that's a big flaw.
I've seen it in action a lot, and most people don't have the discernment to know WHOM to idolize.
So they pick bad pirs and khalifas, like the story in that one thread of the Pakistani fake.

I knew of one like that but nowhere near as evil. Just a little predatory on a young American girl who didn't know how to tell the difference between light and not-that-light teachers.

What surprised me at the time was that REALLY SERIOUS and VERY learned Sufi Students - Americans who are now pretty famous in their field - were taken in by this 'khalifa' and wanted to learn all the mystical studies from him.

I met him and because I'd been in Pakistan, I knew more about which kind of person is which way. So I didn't get friendly with this khalifa who was being raved about by these other people, who all took bayat from him.

Later a semi-bad story that had happened to the girl was whispered to me in confidence. It didn't surprise me.
Of course, same thing, he was disbarred from khalifa status and disgraced.
I KNEW my friends had been too quick and too undiscerning when they put him on such a high pedestal.

There's really a lot to talk about regarding the subject of Sufis Today, because too many Westerner s make BIG MISTAKES in selecting a Pir or teacher.
They just don't know and can be led way astray.

So I'm considering the thought that it's better to avoid being with the wrong Pir [which is a lot of these probably - HOW MANY or what percentage I don't know] than to make a big mistake of placing oneself and one's trust in someone not that spiritually advanced, let alone a dark soul using the Sufi front to capture souls.

This whole topic is very important to analyze, I believe.

[Talib Jan]

Assalamu `Alaykum

To put it simply, the issue of noor is a complex topic which cannot be understood by simply reading about it; it is one that has more to do with experience. The `ulema have actually gone to great depth explaining the different levels of noor one can attain and how it can manifest itself in different forms. Unfortunately, it seems that some think noor only has to do with the amount of light that radiates from one's face when in reality it is the ambience that surrounds a personality which may include light emanating from the individual's body. On top of this, to prove noor of a person through photographs, where the lighting can be altered depending on background conditions, sometimes decreasing it and sometimes increasing it, is not needed to prove tasawwuf as a truthful discipline which is completely in line with the Qur'an and the Sunnah, rather it hurts its credibility due to, what may seem like, "desperate" attempts to justify it. Another thing with noor is that Allah (swt) can give it and take it away at any time, so measuring someone as a wali of Allah (swt) by this standard alone can really misguide someone.

For those who would like clarification about tasawwuf, or the purification of the soul, please take a look at the link below and insha'Allah it will clarify what this discipline is all about.

What is Tasawwuf - Tasawwuf.org

To seek further knowledge about this topic, please listen to the talks that I posted in this thread:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...m-ihsan-10737/

And to be quite honest, this Sufi-Salafi, I'm right you're wrong arguments are getting kind of childish. As my father says, "da loy khalgu, loy kaaruna jeh". I mean, when I was a little younger, I found them quite entertaining and would participate in them until one day my uncle (as they say, an "asli Musulman Kandaray") told me, "stick to what you believe and respect what others believe because at the end of the day only Allah knows for certain who is on haq." And to be honest, there are sincere truth-seeking brothers and sisters in both camps, and usually they're the ones with the best adab.

As the saying goes: "DIVIDE AND CONQUER". Don't fall prey.

[Catya Sher]

^ Shkapar_Dorwaza wrote: "there are sincere truth-seeking brothers and sisters in both camps, and usually they're the ones with the best adab."

YES! This was a truly insightful answer you made overall.
I just really enjoyed reading because this type of topic is very close to my heart.
There's not anyone around to discuss these subjects with.
So I feel really fortunate to have gotten this wise reply.

I know tasawuuf but I'll look at the link in case there's something of particular relevance.
I'll look forward to the talks too.

What makes the most impression, though, is your excellent rundown here.
You tapped into my hesitation in accepting these photos, too.
I was meaning to look through them carefully, rather than skimming through as I did the first times. I want to check into a few of them just to see who they are, as I AM curious, having studied before about many Pirs in earlier times. I haven't been able to even look back at any of that for some time due to other preoccupations and time.

So to sum up, I am in accord about the fake Nur due to intended or unintended photographic side effects which can be too hastily shown off by disciples as proof of the Master's high spiritual attainment.
You're exactly right that the murids seem TOO intent on proving to others
That's the part that therefore makes me wonder about those particular groups.
I'm not talking about Pakhtun_Policy here, who was challenged and replied to that for the sake of debate.
But murids who go around advertising how great their Sheikh is, are always raise suspicion in me.

I would like to study this science of Nur-i-Illahi because it's fascinating.

That's KEY that Allah [swt] can give and withdraw it at any moment!

I saw it as a permanent sign that was there around the Pir.
Fascinating to learn.

I agree about the overall ambiance, not the look on the face by itself as being the real criterion.

Thanks again for the reply, and any future observations, wonderful.

[ScimitarXEdge]

But spirit is primary not the form(letter). Form is a mean towards an end not the end itself. If the ultimate aim is spiritual pleasure/happiness that can be attained as much in a selfless mathematical discovery as in a prayer.

I don't consider those who link spirituality with litteral interpretation/following of an ideology to be true sufi.

if that's your view then it's only because you have a shallow comprehension of both the letter and the spirit.

[ScimitarXEdge]

huh? I don't believe in sects at all where are you getting this from?

I shun all sects and focus only on authentic verified and intellectually honest materials from a rationalist perspective

if you mean because I claim to abide by the Mu'tazilah school of thought; it's not a sect it's an approach which is neutral between all sects and looks at everything objectively. No favorites, whoever makes the strongest point; wins.

[ScimitarXEdge]

thanks Shlombay