Ash'ariyyah, deviant sect of innovators

[شمله ور خراساني]

I didn't know the Taliban has Shiite members. This is news to me. Then I guess the Taliban does not exist anymore, and it is just becoming a Afghan national insurgency or something??? I know that the Taliban is anti-Shiite, but maybe the dynamics in Afghanistan and common xenophobia has changed things?

thats not true. Taliban as a movment is not anti-****e.

[Catya Sher]

There is no question that there are a bunch of phony gurus running around, especially capturing gullible Western followers and converts. I have studied classical Sufism but never heard of any of that list you mentioned, except the last, who I have long regarded as dubious. I could tell there was something wrong but I didn't know what.
When he first was invited to the Bay Area, friends invited me to go and I said absolutely not. And then lost track of that group.
I heard stories too from Germans who had spent time at the order's headquarters in Turkish Cyprus. These guys did not have good reports, which backed up my own intuitions.

I am persuaded that all the "gurus" who go from the East to the West, then raise up their disciples to become sub-gurus, should be avoided like a plague. Some are charlatans and others are more sincere. But not REAL. Not trustworthy guides for the soul. Too many searching Westerners fall into this snare set by malicious devils.

That saying by Ali is the wisest!

Everything in life is that way. If a plan is from God it will be attacked viciously by the devils. Always.
That's why it's necessary to never reveal one's future plans to others, at least those who cannot be 100,000% trusted to be truly on one's side. Many pretend to be but will try to sabotage your plan even with evil thoughts. While they falsely smile & pretend to be happy for you.

Back to the comment by SK, that DOES explain the mass brainwashing of billions of people against the Taliban. Only people who see independently can regard them objectively. Because it's on both sides: the devil pushes the media to indoctrinate a mantra "Taliban are evil" "Watch out for those frightening Taliban". But then why can't the consumers see through this and reason for themselves? Because they have allowed their higher acuity to be wiped out by indulgence in many bad things. They don't offer any resistance to the devil's progamming. So they buy into the wrong ideas and by joining the other billions of people, feel secure. The devil won't attack THEM, so they go the safe way out. Instead of using their power of reason and fighting back against the programming that seems to accompany Western societies -- on all subjects.

Back to Sufis, due to deep spiritual emphasis, THEY should be sharp enough to see through all this.
That's why I think those Afghan Sufis who are NOT co-opted by the Karzai power elite should be given a clear invitation of warm welcome by Taliban people to encourage them to at least mentally support the resistance. Mental goodwill and prayerful wishes are powerful by themselves. This would be a step toward maybe being a little more assertive if they have enough trust.
Right now many might be hedging their bets, hesitating, fearing berating by Taliban hardliners.

They need reassurance. I bet this message never got out widely enough.

This support of the good Afghan Sufis could be absolutely more pivotal than appears.

Now's the time to draw larger numbers of Sufi-inclined Afghans and anyone else into constructive roles. And to jump off the fences where they are sitting!

[Haneef]

You are obviously in denial. Everyone can read our conversation. So who are you fooling but yourself?

How about you, ash'arites who sit silently and allow people on this very forum to ridicule quran and sunnah and you say nothing. But you call a man who revived the true teachings of Islam as a curse?

This is a typical trait of people who are on the verge of nifaaq. Hostile to the believers and lenient to the disbelievers.

Many prophets were shunned by their kinsmen. So should we denounce them as well?
Islam is not a religion solely based on majority opinion. In islam quran and sunnah are more important than mere opinions. Since you people cannot refute a scholar using quran and sunnah, what difference does it make whether there is a majority or a minority opinion?

The wife of Noah alay salaam did not accept his dawah. And he was a prophet. So who cares that ibn abdul wahhab's father and brother shunned him? He was just a scholar.


I am awake.

Well, I as a layman have asked you "the scholar" very simple question. Instead of answering them, you are running away and avoiding my questions. So whats the matter?

" ha ha ha" I know you find this very amusing. This is why you act so desperately.

Buddy, it was you and your Mujib singh buddy who started fighting and starting to be abusive.

If you are man enough to start a fight, then have the guts to finish it. Dont go running away squealing and weeping shouting adab and tarbiya. Since you lack both including courage.

You are comparing apples and oranges, comparing Noah's wife and Ibrahim AS's father is different than comparing the ulama and their sons, one is kufr vs islam, one is Islam vs Islam. You have no aql or mantiq, you people are between believers and disbelievers, dont' get too happy.

[Haneef]

Salam Aleikom,

I think it is better for us not to fight or humiliate each other, because we disagree with one and other. While some of the ''Pashtun'' members here makes fun of the Qur'aan, the Prophet and the Ahkaam of our religion, we are busy with these fruitless discussions.

Imam Al Ash'ari explained his final statement and his aqeedah in Risalah ila Ahl al thaghr, Maqalat al Islaamiyien, and al Ibaanah. The Aqeedah of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and the Aqeedah of Ahl e sunnat and the other three schools of thought. The first two stages of his Aqeedah in the beginning where clearly erroneous, since they where influenced by Mu'tazilah and the believe aqeeda of Ibn Kilab.

Since there is no prove to claim ''The hand of Allah'' means his power, or to claim that the Prophet peace be upon him, the Sahaba or the Tabiyin claimed this. That is why Imam ibn Kathir rahimahullah said concerning a verse from Surah Al A'raaf, ''bi la takyif'' , (Without philosophizing about the meaning) , wa la tashbih (Without comparing it with the makhluqaat), wa la ta'til (Without denouncing it),

Imam Ahmad said that the ''hand of Allah'' is Mutashabih and Dhahir, without (Al Kayf) the ''how''. So there are differences of opinion, but no one is comparing it with the makhluqaat.

As Mujib mentioned, there are some issus with the Ibaanah. That being said, the athari school is a Sunni aqeedah school, while the wahabi/salafi is NOT. Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal is correct that we do not define the HOW. If the wahabia follow the Athari Aqeedah, everything is fine.

[Haneef]

Sufism as an ideology is a deviance from the core spirituality of Islam. All though not all of Sufism is deviance, the fact is that modern Sufi movements are usually extremely deviant.

Of course some deviance is unavoidable because Muslims are not perfect.

But if you want make a clear distinction of who is a good sufi and who is a bad sufi, then use the saying of Ali Ibn Abi Taalib as an indication.

he said: if you want to know which group among the muslims is the good group, watch the arrows of the disbelievers and see towards whom those are pointed at.

Sufis like Hamza yusuf, Gibril Haddad, TJ Winter, Nu Ha Meem Keller, Hisham Kabbani etc are the ones who are praised and promoted by Western media.

But orthodox muslims like Taliban and others are demonized and persecuted as evil.

And those Sufis who support the Karzai government are people like Sibghatullah Mujadidi and Sayed Pir Jilani. THey were supporters of the late king Sahir shah. And they are now supporters of Karzai. In fact, Karzai was a member of Jilani's party in the 80's.

sufism is the core of Islam, Tazkiyatun-nafs..call it sufism, Ahlal Tasawuf, tazkia-tun- nafs, whatever you want, it is the core of Islam, always has been and always will be. Only uncultured people who have not been taught deen properly adopt the wahabi way and leave it after a certain time, usually this is in their late teens early 20's when they are HOT blooded/headed, like animals.

Just because somone calls himself a sufi doesn't mean they are, their actions should speak louder than their words. Where are your comments when bin baaz, albaani uthaymiyeen, ibn abdul wahab and the whole wahabi/salafi army supported the corrupt secular saudi government? what happensed to theM? they sat there and enjoyed government money and love, and even married into them...

who cares what jilani says and what mojadidi says? Look at what sufism preaches, judge a path by its context, not followers.

[Haneef]

I have never seen any Muslim who was taught the deen, practiced it, and lived by it turn into a wahabi, EVER. I have seen many wahabis renounce their self righteous, takfiri ways and get back into the mainstream Islam.
Islam is about consensus, and jama`ah, the prophet SAW stated many hadiths about Jama`ah..so this BS about "majoritY" doesn't matter is unfounded.

[شمله ور خراساني]

you are still not answering any of my questions. Instead your are blowing off hot steam.

[Haneef]

look at the second page, all your questions were answered, do you want me to spoon feed you? Say AAA

[Haneef]

This answers your first, second, third and a few later on.

Look, someone can't read :D

[Mujib]

You should gather some courage and be a man and answer questions like a man suppose to.

May Allah give us courage. You should know what an answer is and what is implied. And you should know that naming oneself "Sangar" or "Shamlawar" or other "manly" names does not make one a man. Nor does posting articles about the Taliban and talking about jihad make one a mujahid.

Know also that your questions are ignored because they are empty questions. It might be "Was Imam Abu Haneefah an Ash'ari or Maturidi?" today while it was "Was Abu Haneefah a Prophet that you follow him?" yesterday.

Taliban are a collective of muslims from Afghanistan and other parts of the world. There are people from all groups and sects who have pledged allegiance to Amirul Mumineen.

Everyone knows who the leadership of the Taliban and the majority of its members are.

Unlike your evil scholars like Haddad and Hamza Yusuf who are hopping on AMerican's laps and trying to prevent people from adhering to quran and sunnah.

Shaykh Gibril Haddad is not from America nor does he live in America. Both he and Shaykh Hamza have condemned American foreign policy and the "war on terror." Shaykh Hamza has done so live in front of thousands of people. He advised Bush against the war in Afghanistan in person. Posting articles on internet forums could never compare to such real service to Islam and Muslims.

Of course it is easy to be an internet mujahid somewhere outside of America and to accuse others of "hopping on American's laps."

There is nothing wrong with Hanafi Fiqh. MOst of my Afghan Salafi friends are Hanafi by fiqh.

There is nothing wrong with it today, because it was attributed to the Taliban. But yesterday, of course, it was blind following and bid`a and shirk. And as for your friends, explain to them that one cannot be both a Wahhabi/"Salafi" and a Hanafi.

So what? Many Muslims are naqshandi or qadiri.

Unlike the rest of the world, the Sufis in Afghanistan are quite conservative people. They do not mistake themselves for pacifist hindus. They do occasionally fight when it is necessary. Most prominent warriors who defended Afghanistan in the past were Sufis. Proper ones. Not the evil grave worshiping criminals like the ones promoted by America today.

It is "So what?" today while yesterday it was "bid`a, shirk, bid`a, shirk."

This is another attempt to separate the beliefs and practices of the Taliban and Afghanistan from the beliefs of practices of the rest of the Muslim world. Sufis everywhere, not just in Afghanistan, throughout history and until this day, have engaged in true jihad. Theirs is true jihad unlike the terrorism of Wahhabis that targets innocent civilians. And the Sufism of Afghanistan is the Sufism of the rest of the Muslim world.

And again, it's "conservative people" and "Proper ones" today while it was "grave worshippers" yesterday. Of course we don't need to dig up posts from this very forum wherein you've accused Afghans of shirk and bid`a.

How about you, ash'arites who sit silently and allow people on this very forum to ridicule quran and sunnah and you say nothing.

You've made similar comments before. You said the same about my interactions with MWMN when the truth is I had a long discussion with him on this forum and another. Or is your idea of discussion the abusive language, disrespect, and mockery you and certain others have shown? If so, may we continue to "say nothing."

[Fatima]

http://www.livingislam.org/n/slfm_e.html#1st

"Salafi" forgeries/manipulations


It seems that every fifteen minutes another textual tampering or distortion of meaning is born at the hands of a certain sect, and to refute them is like trying to reason with Gog and Magog. However, the following reply is not addressed to them. Qadi Iyad: "It was from this standpoint, of this high estimate of Imam Malik, that ash-Shafi'i argued convincingly against Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybani, the student of Abu Hanifa, in support of the superiority of the knowledge of Malik over that of Abu Hanifa when the two of them argued with each other on this point. (Etc.)
This is without doubt a forged report as indicated by Imam al-Bayhaqi himself when he cited it in Manaaqib al-Shafi`i.

Al-Qurtubi al-Maliki (d.671) said, "and not a single person from the righteous salaf rejected that His Istawaa upon His Throne was literal, and He specified the Throne because it is from the greatest of His creation. And they were ignorant of the kayfiyyah of His Istawaa.and Imaam Maalik said, -al-Istawaa is known' meaning in the language, -and the nature is not know known, and to ask about (how) is a bid'ah'" [ -al-Jaami lil Ahkaam al-Qur'aan' of al-Qurtobee under the verse -then He rose over His Throne', see -Mukhtasar al-Uluw' (pg. 286).]
The above is cut-and-paste and a lie against the great Ash`ari Maliki Imam al-Qurtubi. The authentic position of al-Qurtubi from his Tafsir is thus:

Follow the link for full article, educate yourselves against deviance.