Ash'ariyyah, deviant sect of innovators

[Mujib]

The `Aqida Tahawiyya is a sufficient text for knowing basic Muslim doctrine (`aqida).

`Aqida Tahawiyya

Mufti Abdurrahman ibn Yusuf's commentary on the Tahawiyya

[Haneef]

Was Imam Abu Haneefah an Ash'ari or Maturidi? Was Imaam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal any of those things? Was Imaam Maalik an Ash'ari? Was Imaam Shafi'i a Maturidi?

How come this creed of innovators, Ash'ariyyah and Maturidiyyah were invented at least 300 years later?

Why didn't eny of the companions of the prophet sal allahu alayhi wasallam ever claim such nonsense and negate names and tributes of allah?


And why did Abu' Hassan al Ash'ari himself changed his mind and declared his previous position regarding creed to be false? Why did Abul Hassan al Ash'ari declare that he is following the same Aqeedah as Imaam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal?


If you could answer any of these questions with decent answers and reference I can check for myself, I will become an Ash'ari or a Maturidi or whatever silly name you people give your ideology.

You are right, there was no Asharis or Maturidis at that time, but the prophet SAW never linked Allah SWT to a human form. None of the Sahaba or Tabi`een gave Allah SWT human characteristics, they had Athari aqeedah, not the Aqeedah of Ibn Taymiyyah or the rest of you wahabis. If you can follow the Athari Aqeedah then there is no issue.

As for the WHY these schools of Aqeedah came about, you should read a bit more. Aqeedah is very simple actually, but because of the attacks from the philosophers, the "basic" understanding of Aqeedah where we do not define ayaat that have to do with the Sifaat of Allah swt is not good enough to refute these people. Therefore, the Ashari and Maturidi schools of Aqeedah were founded. The same arguments exist today, and if you were to use your human form of God (Allah), they would make you cry like a baby.

Ibn Taymiyyah made mince meat out of the Asharis? LOL..that's hillarious...comparing Ibn Taymiyyahas Aqeedah to that of the Maturids and Asharis is like comparing the water of a bath tub to that of the ocean...

Why don't you listen to these Aqeedah lectures? And if you have an issue then let's talk about it?

[شمله ور خراساني]

You are right, there was no Asharis or Maturidis at that time,

If it wasn't there then, why should we believe in something that is invented later?

but the prophet SAW never linked Allah SWT to a human form. None of the Sahaba or Tabi`een gave Allah SWT human characteristics,

Please give specific examples of human characteristics attributed to Allah by "us wahhabis".

they had Athari aqeedah, not the Aqeedah of Ibn Taymiyyah or the rest of you wahabis.

Please explain what is the difference between aqeeda of athariyyah and Ibn Taymiyyah.

If you can follow the Athari Aqeedah then there is no issue.

Why can't you?

As for the WHY these schools of Aqeedah came about, you should read a bit more.

What books should I read?

Aqeedah is very simple actually,

If it's simple, why do you need assistance from Aristotle?

but because of the attacks from the philosophers, the "basic" understanding of Aqeedah where we do not define ayaat that have to do with the Sifaat of Allah swt is not good enough to refute these people.

Since when are the philosophers more superior to Quran and Muslims?

Therefore, the Ashari and Maturidi schools of Aqeedah were founded.

Just like "moderate" and "liberal" islam is founded by Hamza Yusuf and Tariq Ramadan because of the attacks of the kuffaar?

The same arguments exist today, and if you were to use your human form of God (Allah), they would make you cry like a baby.

Please describe my human form of allah that you know of.

Ibn Taymiyyah made mince meat out of the Asharis? LOL..that's hillarious...comparing Ibn Taymiyyahas Aqeedah to that of the Maturids and Asharis is like comparing the water of a bath tub to that of the ocean...

Is that an argument?

Why don't you listen to these Aqeedah lectures?

Who's lectures?

And if you have an issue then let's talk about it?

Why don't you just answer my questions?

[Haneef]

Before I answer your questions, I want you to put your copy and paste aside, and simply think a little. If the wahabi claim that Allah has a hand, he sits, etc etc, he has a face and other body parts, then what happens when he mentions in Surah Rahman when Allah says everything but his face (countenance) will perish? What happens to Allah SWT's other attributes? do they disappear as well? So the early Muslims saw these ayyaat that dealt with the Sifaat of Allah and accepted them, without defining the "how", "where", etc..but later on, in order to refute other groups, the definition HAD to be done, so the Muslims could not give human qualities to Allah SWT, because Allah sWT says there's nothing like unto him, NOTHING...
That, is how these Aqeedah schools came to be. They were created to simplify life for Muslims, and help them move forward in the world they live in. This is how Islam was spread because they had Deen, Logic, and Mantiq. You can not tell someone "well we don't know" and have them convert to islam, they will claim you don't know your own religion first, why should I convert. This answers your first, second, third and a few later on.

I can follow athari Aqeedah, but as noted above, at times it may not suffice. But yes, in our day to day dealings, for us it does NOT matter how the sifaat of Allah are, and how to define them, we will never know. Therefore to define them is anthromorphism, to say he has a HANd, but it's not like ours. Many ulama have claimed that anthromorphism is kufr, they don't call the wahabia/salafis kafirs, but they say anyone who has these beliefs is an outright kafir. Because you are denying the Quranic ayaat that there's nothing like Allah.

Our Aqeedah is simple, if you think something is like Allah, it is NOT.
You can read this book,
The Creed of Imam Tahawi - $21.20 : Al-Rashad Books and Gifts

Also listen to the lectures Mujib posted. One day you will get out of this political ideology that's plaguing you now, insha`Allah tala, many have and I have seen it with my own eyes. So the idea here is to get out of it early and save yourself the trouble.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Before I answer your questions, I want you to put your copy and paste aside, and simply think a little.

What makes you think I don't think?

If the wahabi claim that Allah has a hand, he sits, etc etc, he has a face and other body parts, then what happens when he mentions in Surah Rahman when Allah says everything but his face (countenance) will perish? What happens to Allah SWT's other attributes? do they disappear as well?

It is a matter of tafseer. And quranic ayat provide no reason for you to go and resort to Aristotelian meta-physics. You can't defend haqq with baatil. Thats a false belief.

So the early Muslims saw these ayyaat that dealt with the Sifaat of Allah and accepted them, without defining the "how", "where", etc..but later on, in order to refute other groups, the definition HAD to be done, so the Muslims could not give human qualities to Allah SWT, because Allah sWT says there's nothing like unto him, NOTHING...

Clear quranic verses were negated sothat people do not affirm of allah that which he mentions in his book about himself?

That's some philosophy you got there.

That, is how these Aqeedah schools came to be. They were created to simplify life for Muslims, and help them move forward in the world they live in.

Quranic text was negated to simplify life for Muslims because quran prevented people from having normal lives? Wow! I hope no non-Muslim reads your post. Otherwise we will have allot of explaining to do.

This is how Islam was spread because they had Deen, Logic, and Mantiq.

So where was your logic and mantiq when you typed the above statements?

You can not tell someone "well we don't know" and have them convert to islam, they will claim you don't know your own religion first, why should I convert.

Nobody gives dawah in this fashion. So I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

But suppose I am asked if allah has a hand. And I say, yes, he has hands beause he mentions it in his book. But his hand is not like the hand of a human being. Because allah is unlike anything else. And I recite surah al ikhlas. Would I be doing something that is wrong? How is that wrong and it is okay to give dawah to islam by using Aristotelian concepts of god as a discription of god? LOL

This answers your first, second, third and a few later on.

You didn't answer my questions.

I can follow athari Aqeedah, but as noted above, at times it may not suffice.

Why are you so special that the aqeedah of the first generation of Muslims is not sufficient for you?

But yes, in our day to day dealings, for us it does NOT matter how the sifaat of Allah are, and how to define them, we will never know.

So now you are saying you dont know. Yet earlier in this post you said it is wrong to say you dont know. I conclude that for you it is okay to use Aristotle to do dawah while you yourslef dont know. Thats marvelous. How do you convince yourself with this?

Therefore to define them is anthromorphism, to say he has a HANd, but it's not like ours.

Was allah being anthropomorphic when he revealed in quran his sifaat? (ps: learn to spell fancy words before you use them)

Many ulama have claimed that anthromorphism is kufr, they don't call the wahabia/salafis kafirs, but they say anyone who has these beliefs is an outright kafir.

So the ulema make takfeer on people who affirm of allah that which is mentioned in Quran? And not only that but they are cowards as well by making takfeer on those who belief in the ayat of quran but do not dare to categorically call them out? Who are these ulema?

Because you are denying the Quranic ayaat that there's nothing like Allah.

Where did I do that?

Our Aqeedah is simple, if you think something is like Allah, it is NOT.

If it is simple why do you say so much nonsense?

You can read this book,
The Creed of Imam Tahawi - $21.20 : Al-Rashad Books and Gifts

First, convince me that you can logically defend your aqeedah before you suggest any books.

If cant defend your beliefs, why do you hide behind other peoples books? You said it yourself that your aqeeda is simple. So why cant you explain it and defend it yourself?

Also listen to the lectures Mujib posted.

Mujib usually uses the crypto-hindu website called "sufi-path". I am not interesting in his stuff. I rather listen to decent muslims.

One day you will get out of this political ideology that's plaguing you now, insha`Allah tala, many have and I have seen it with my own eyes.

Which political ideology is that?

So the idea here is to get out of it early and save yourself the trouble.

Get out of what? don't you mean go astray and enter into baatil that you cant even logically explain or defend?

[Mujib]

Was Imam Abu Haneefah an Ash'ari or Maturidi? Was Imaam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal any of those things? Was Imaam Maalik an Ash'ari? Was Imaam Shafi'i a Maturidi?

The Taliban certainly are. The Taliban, whom you consider the saviors of the umma, are Hanafi in fiqh, Maturidi in `aqida, and many of them belong to the Naqshbandi and Qadiri Sufi tariqas.

And so was Sultan Muhammad (Mehmed) Fatih (d. 1481) (Allah be well pleased with him), the conqueror of Constantinople, to whom the following sahih hadith is said to refer:

"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!"

[Haneef]

people who innovate, like the khawarij, Mutazilla, and the current day wahabis/salafis. They create something new in the deen, like calling people who are Muslim kafir because it doesn't agree with their version of Islam

[Haneef]

It is a matter of tafseer. And quranic ayat provide no reason for you to go and resort to Aristotelian meta-physics. You can't defend haqq with baatil. Thats a false belief.

so you can't answer my question?
What are the sifat of Allah, let us hear it? what are they and how do you define theM? and what happens when this Quranic ayyat is applied?

You asked me which book, I provided it, if you don't want to read it, why do you ask for it and waste people's time?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Thats very funny. You have not answered any of my questions. But you want me to answer your questions in order for you to escape the burden.

Why are you so scared of answering my questions? What is it that you are hiding and you want to avoid?

so you can't answer my question?

I did answer you question. Dealing with these matters as I said, is work of tafseer. Mufasireen can answer such questions.

What are the sifat of Allah, let us hear it?

I dont know. You tell me, mister Ash'ari. Since you are declaring people kaafir who affirm that to allah which is mentioned in the quran.

what are they and how do you define theM?

They are that which allah mentions of himself in the quran.

and what happens when this Quranic ayyat is applied?

Nothing special. This ayat was not revealed recently. So why should we change our creed because some insecure and weak people who are scared of philosophers are now having doubts and resort to books of Aristotle in order to feel comfortable about their faith.

You asked me which book, I provided it, if you don't want to read it, why do you ask for it and waste people's time?

You are now paving a path of escape for yourself.

Have some balls and answer my questions properly in my previous post and don't pave ways to escape this discussion.

[شمله ور خراساني]

people who innovate, like the khawarij, Mutazilla, and the current day wahabis/salafis. They create something new in the deen, like calling people who are Muslim kafir because it doesn't agree with their version of Islam

creating something new in the deen? Hmmm is believing in Quranic ayat and the sifaat of allah as they are mentioned in quran?

And using Aristotles meta-physics is not innovation?

LOL! You got jokes.

[Haneef]

It seems you not only want to avoid my question, but also you are bay-adab and bay tarbia. I want you to answer my questions, if you can't do that, then admit that you don't know what you are talking about. Because when i ask you, you say this is a matter of tafsir, this is what Allah said In the Quran. I want you to answer this, exact direct answers. And since you have not done that, I will take it that you don't know your own aqeedah except you are good at copy and paste. True sign of a loser.

[Haneef]

creating something new in the deen? Hmmm is believing in Quranic ayat and the sifaat of allah as they are mentioned in quran?

And using Aristotles meta-physics is not innovation?

LOL! You got jokes.

believing in it is fine, defining it as having human characteristics is NOT. stop regurgitating.

[شمله ور خراساني]

@ Mujib,

You should gather some courage and be a man and answer questions like a man suppose to.

I asked you if any of our great scholars like Imaam Abu Haneefa were innovators of the Ash'ari type. You should answer that. And not bring Taliban into this discussion.

The Taliban certainly are.

You are lying. Is this part of your religion? To lie?

Taliban are a collective of muslims from Afghanistan and other parts of the world. There are people from all groups and sects who have pledged allegiance to Amirul Mumineen. There are even Shi'ites among the Taliban.

And Amirul Momineen Mullah Muhammad Omar Akhund has not announced that Afghanistan should adhere to a certain creed. Certainly not the Maturidi creed.

This is just wishful thinking on your part.

The Taliban, whom you consider the saviors of the umma,

I do not consider them as the saviors of the ummah. I just love them for being stand up people who defend our country against criminals and crusaders. Unlike your evil scholars like Haddad and Hamza Yusuf who are hopping on AMerican's laps and trying to prevent people from adhering to quran and sunnah.

are Hanafi in fiqh,

There is nothing wrong with Hanafi Fiqh. MOst of my Afghan Salafi friends are Hanafi by fiqh.

Maturidi in `aqida,

Don't lie. Are the Tālibān from Ahl as-Sunnah? - Pashtun Community

and many of them belong to the Naqshbandi and Qadiri Sufi tariqas.

So what? Many Muslims are naqshandi or qadiri.

And so was Sultan Muhammad (Mehmed) Fatih (d. 1481) (Allah be well pleased with him), the conqueror of Constantinople, to whom the following sahih hadith is said to refer:

"Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!

Is said to refer? Hmmm.

[Haneef]

ur not ahlal sunnah, how can you verify who is and who isn't when you yourself aren't a Sunni? LOL...wake up !

[شمله ور خراساني]

It seems you not only want to avoid my question, but also you are bay-adab and bay tarbia.

LOL! Whenever you are out of options you hide behind words like adab and tarbiya. Where was your adab and tarbiya when you falsely accused me? Where was your adab and tarbiya when you started back biting Al Imaam Mujadid Ibn Abdul Wahhab? Where was your adab and tarbiya when you have spoken falsehood in this discussion?

I want you to answer my questions,

I will answer you questions on the condition that you be a man and not a wimp and you answer the questions I posed you. Because you have not answered them. Instead you have posed your silly questions in order to avoid the burden.

if you can't do that,

I can asnwer them. Who said I dont? It is you who is hiding and not having enough courage to answer the questions I asked you.

then admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

Why should I? I asked you and your buddy Mujib Singh to answer my simple question. I asked you two to prove that the salaf and the early khalaf were Ash'ari or Maturidi. You haven't been able to give me a decent asnwer. When I questioned you further, you started dodging questions and started paving a path of escape for yourself.

Because when i ask you, you say this is a matter of tafsir, this is what Allah said In the Quran.

Why should I as a layman go and say anything which is not mentioned in the quran, or in the tafseer? The salaf and the mufasireen have dealt with the tafseer of quran. There is no need for us now to go beyond that and go and invent new stuff about quran that wasn't there before.

I want you to answer this, exact direct answers.

You are making demands, yet you dont have the balls to answer any of my previous questions?

And since you have not done that, I will take it that you don't know your own aqeedah except you are good at copy and paste. True sign of a loser.

Usually, this is the path people pave before the leave a discussion. THey avoid questions, they refuse to answer and pose silly questions instead and accuse to counterparty.