Discussion of Ahmadi between Akbar Khan and MeemWawMeemNoon

[akbarkhan]

Well what he claims is that members are taking it out of context. Do you mind answering his questions?

Jasmine,

How exactly am I taking those quotes out of context? And if I was taking it out of context why did he deny their existence in the first place until I highlighted it and matched it with its English translation?

I am going to paste a few quotes from their authentic books, is he going to say that I am taking all of these out of context? Or that all of them are "metaphorical" and "figurative language"?

How many of these quotes are "out of context"?

God admits making mistakes

In one of His revelations to Mirza Ghulam, God admits that He make mistakes.

"(Arabic) Akhtee wa Aseeb - (translation: I will also make mistakes and will make it right)" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106)

The Mirza goes on to explain this revelation in his own words:

"The apparent meaning of revelation of God is that I will also make mistakes and sometimes I will make it right. That is, what I will, sometimes I will fulfill it and sometimes I won't." (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106, footnote)

Mirza is God

"I saw in one of my vision that I myself am God and believed that I am Him." (Kitab-ul-Bariayh, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p.103)

Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wasallam and his Sahaabah used to eat cheese made by the Christians, although it was well known that pig’s fat is used in its making. (Al Fadhl, Qaadiyaan, 22nd February, 1924)

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.’ In this divine revelation, I have been named Muhammad and also Rasool. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 207, Vol. 18)

Leave the mention of Ibne Maryam(‘Eesaa alayhis salaam); Ghulam Ahmad is more better than him. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 240, Vol. 18)

(Jesus) had the habit of uttering obscenities and frequently using foul language. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 289, Vol. 11)

It should be remembered that he (Jesus) had also to some extent the habit of lying. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 289, Vol. 11)

Jesus could not portray himself as a pious man because people knew that he was a gluttonous alcoholic. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 296, Vol. 10)

What were Aboo Bakr and Umar? They were not even fit to open the shoelaces of Hadhrat Ghulam Ahmad. (Monthly Al Mahdi, January-February, 1915)

Names of three cities have been written in Qur’aan with honour - Makkah, Madeenah and Qaadiyaan. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 140, Vol. 3)

Every Muslim looks at these books (of Mirza) with an eye of love and benefits from its knowledge and accepts me and verifies my call except children of prostitutes upon whose hearts Allah has put a seal; they do not accept me. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 547-548, Vol.5)

[khyaal]

This whole discussion about Ahmadis is meant to introduce new cults in Afghanistan and to polarize Afghan society along religious lines also. On ethnic lines Pakistan has already worked so hard by introducing the northern afghan and Southern afghan terminologies.

Listen to me! This MOMN is a Punjabi apologist and don't think he is here to enrich this Pashtun forum. Read also some of his political in which he advises us, the poeple of Occupied Pakhtunkhwa, to accept Punjab's colonial rule, for Pashtuns to the east of the Durand line don't have any other option and their reunion with Afghanistan is not going to happen.

[شمله ور خراساني]

This whole discussion about Ahmadis is meant to introduce new cults in Afghanistan and to polarize Afghan society along religious lines also. On ethnic lines Pakistan has already worked so hard by introducing the northern afghan and Southern afghan terminologies.

Listen to me! This MOMN is a Punjabi apologist and don't think he is here to enrich this Pashtun forum. Read also some of his political in which he advises us, the poeple of Occupied Pakhtunkhwa, to accept Punjab's colonial rule, for Pashtuns to the east of the Durand line don't have any other option and their reunion with Afghanistan is not going to happen.

Yes, and he is also a staunch supporter of American colonization of Afghanistan. Just like you. So what does that make you?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I am going to paste a few quotes from their authentic books, is he going to say that I am taking all of these out of context? Or that all of them are "metaphorical" and "figurative language"?

How many of these quotes are "out of context"?

The more I am reading your distorted posts the more I am thinking and am convinced that you have no love of Allah in your heart, no love of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) in your heart, and no love of Quran in your heart.

You are a manipulative son of Iblis!

Why don’t you give the full translations? Why are most of your quotes short quotes from the middle of his writings? Why do you cut off the relevant parts of the quote where the context is mentioned? Why are you purposefully misleading people? Why don’t you tell everyone what are the real backgrounds of the quotes?

What do you stand to gain from these manipulative ways of yours?

You don’t stand a chance against me when it comes to Quran, and you know that people can check the Quranic references, and they can judge for themselves who is right and who is wrong. However, you are going about this manipulative way because you know that people will not and cannot check the proper references. Therefore, you are taking advantage of this method. You are being very dishonest.

If you were honest you would settle on discussing the Death of Jesus.

But you know you don’t stand a chance. Also, if Hadhrat Isa (as) is dead then it automatically makes Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) the Messiah, and as such everything he says is correct. The same way a lot of Muslims don’t question Islam, because they know that if they don’t understand something it is because of their own lack of knowledge and not that there is anything wrong with Islam itself.

Anyhow, I will be answering these next set of distorted and bogus quotes of yours.

You indeed are from the Army of Iblis.

Shame on you.

God admits making mistakes

In one of His revelations to Mirza Ghulam, God admits that He make mistakes.

"(Arabic) Akhtee wa Aseeb - (translation: I will also make mistakes and will make it right)" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106)

The Mirza goes on to explain this revelation in his own words:

"The apparent meaning of revelation of God is that I will also make mistakes and sometimes I will make it right. That is, what I will, sometimes I will fulfill it and sometimes I won't." (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106, footnote)

Answer to this bogus misquoted reference: http://www.pashtunforums.com/112083-post56.html

Mirza is God

"I saw in one of my vision that I myself am God and believed that I am Him." (Kitab-ul-Bariayh, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p.103)

Answer to this bogus misquoted reference without the use of one's God-given brain: http://www.pashtunforums.com/112093-post57.html

Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wasallam and his Sahaabah used to eat cheese made by the Christians, although it was well known that pig’s fat is used in its making. (Al Fadhl, Qaadiyaan, 22nd February, 1924)

http://www.pashtunforums.com/112097-post58.html

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.’ In this divine revelation, I have been named Muhammad and also Rasool. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 207, Vol. 18)

http://www.pashtunforums.com/112108-post60.html

Leave the mention of Ibne Maryam(‘Eesaa alayhis salaam); Ghulam Ahmad is more better than him. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 240, Vol. 18)

answer to the conniving methods of akbarkhan misleading people: http://www.pashtunforums.com/112148-post63.html

(Jesus) had the habit of uttering obscenities and frequently using foul language. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 289, Vol. 11)

It should be remembered that he (Jesus) had also to some extent the habit of lying. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 289, Vol. 11)

Jesus could not portray himself as a pious man because people knew that he was a gluttonous alcoholic. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 296, Vol. 10)

What were Aboo Bakr and Umar? They were not even fit to open the shoelaces of Hadhrat Ghulam Ahmad. (Monthly Al Mahdi, January-February, 1915)

Names of three cities have been written in Qur’aan with honour - Makkah, Madeenah and Qaadiyaan. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 140, Vol. 3)

Every Muslim looks at these books (of Mirza) with an eye of love and benefits from its knowledge and accepts me and verifies my call except children of prostitutes upon whose hearts Allah has put a seal; they do not accept me. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 547-548, Vol.5)

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

God admits making mistakes

In one of His revelations to Mirza Ghulam, God admits that He make mistakes.

"(Arabic) Akhtee wa Aseeb - (translation: I will also make mistakes and will make it right)" (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106)

The Mirza goes on to explain this revelation in his own words:

"The apparent meaning of revelation of God is that I will also make mistakes and sometimes I will make it right. That is, what I will, sometimes I will fulfill it and sometimes I won't." (Haqeeqat-ul-Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol. 22 p. 106, footnote)

First of all, this quote is part of a revelation from Allah. Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is not saying this as per his own beliefs.

Further, he (as) has explained it so well that it leaves no room for misinterpretation. He not only gave a figurative, not a literal, translation, but he also went into detail in the footnote so as to leave no room for misunderstanding. He wanted to make sure that his revelation does not mean that Allah makes mistakes.

That is why he felt that a mere figurative translation would not suffice to convince his audience of his revelation and that a footnote would be necessary where he could also bring a literal translation and explain its significance.

He (as) explains (I am paraphrasing):
Allah is saying that sometimes He fulfills what He wants and sometimes He does not fulfill what He wants. This is written in the translation of the Arabic right below it.
Moreover, in the footnotes, he explains in detail.

He is saying that if one is to take this revelation literally then it means that Allah says: Sometimes I make mistakes and I also make good. However, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is explaining the metaphorical meanings of his own revelation. He does not give in to the literal translation, he is interpreting the literal words vis-à-vis the figurative meaning of the revelation.
In the figurative meaning, he (as) is saying that Allah does as He pleases.

He (as) gives an example by way of a hadith. There is a hadith in which Allah says that in the moment of the death of a believer I go back and forth, whereas in reality Allah does not go back and forth, He is free from this type of action.

In other words, with respect to his revelation, he (as) is saying that Allah sometimes abrogates what He brings and sometimes fulfills what He wants.
Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) no where in here is saying that God makes mistakes.

This goes hand in hand with this verse of the Holy Quran:

[2:106] Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Mirza is God

"I saw in one of my vision that I myself am God and believed that I am Him." (Kitab-ul-Bariayh, Roohani Khazain vol. 3 p.103)

This is very clear that it is a vision, a dream. In visions, revelation and dreams you don't take things literally most of the time.

The Quran is based on interpretation. Why do you think we have mufassireen? The Quran CANNOT and MUST NOT be taken literal all the time. Otherwise, you have Taliban type people who will rule over you in the most heinous and ignorant way.

One example that I can bring from the Quran with respect to this is the vision of Hadhrat Yusuf (as) when he saw 11 stars, the moon and the sun prostrating to him. How could Hadhrat Yusuf (as), being a prophet, claim such an erroneous claim? We only prostrate to Allah.

However, we know that it was a vision, therefore, one is not to take it literally. Otherwise, Hadhrat Yusuf (as) would also be considered Allah.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wasallam and his Sahaabah used to eat cheese made by the Christians, although it was well known that pig’s fat is used in its making. (Al Fadhl, Qaadiyaan, 22nd February, 1924)

I can't answer this in detail because I can't find the issue of this newspaper online.

But knowing how stupid and childish akbarkhan's brain is I am pretty sure, without a shadow of doubt, that there is more to the story.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.’ In this divine revelation, I have been named Muhammad and also Rasool. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 207, Vol. 18)

Reference is wrong. I can't find it.

But let us say that it is true.

It is clear that it is a vision. Please refer to the previous answer with respect to visions.

Further, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has come to bring the prestige back for Islam therefore he will also have to be like Muhammad (saw) because this is the deen of Muhammad (saw) that he is here to defend, not anyone else's.

By the way, a rasul is a nabi and a nabi is a rasul. You can't separate them. The same person holds both offices, otherwise, it would be useless to be a nabi and not a rasul, and it would be dangerous to be a rasul and not a nabi.

Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) has not brought a new book but he is still a nabi and a rasul. He has come to defend Islam in this age of the Dajjal from its enemies. This is how he is fighting--with his pen. Just like the first Messiah, the Mosaic Messiah, who did not fight a physical war, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is not here to fight a physical war. His war is the spiritual war.

The Jews of the time of Hadhrat Isa (as) rejected Hadhrat Isa (as) because they thought, as per the prophecies, that their Messiah would wage a physical war and give them back their prestige. However, when Hadhrat Isa (as) did not fight a physical war, they rejected him.

The same has come true for the Muhammadan Messiah.

[khyaal]

Since its late in the London I think we are going to have to wait until the morning for our respected Akbar Khan's response.

Akbar Khan we expect you to fully offer your rebuttal, not a oneliner or 2liner.

Akbar khan will be too gullibel if he doesn't understand the underlying agenda of popularizing Urdu/Hindi and introducing religious cults in Afghan society thus paving way for Paaki interference. Punjabis want to extend their tests on guinea-pigs upto Afghanistan now, this time beyond the Durand line. After Taliban's failure this seems to be a new ploy.

[khyaal]

Uzbek, Turkman, Hazaras against Pashtuns; Shias against Sunnis; Muslims against Ahmadis. lol, this new scenario will be quite entertaining for Paaki/Punjoos. We have got used to their modus operandi. They have worked out this very well in Kurram Agency where Sunni under the leadership of Punjab based Sipah e Suhaba are fighting against the local Shias.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Leave the mention of Ibne Maryam(‘Eesaa alayhis salaam); Ghulam Ahmad is more better than him. (Roohaani Khazaa’in Page 240, Vol. 18)

akbarkhan,

O you ill-fated person. O you who may be showered with the wrath and curse of Allah. Why are you misleading people?

Why did you leave out whole first part of this poem? WHY? Why o why?

This poem is expressing the Grandeur and the Immense Height of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) is showing his love and affection for his beloved Prophet (saw).

You have purposefully mistranslated the poem.

He is not saying: Ghulam Ahmad.
He is saying: Ghulam-e Ahmad.

Ghulam Ahmad is his name.
Ghulam-e Ahmad is anyone who is the follower of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

O you be ghairat insaan! When is the rain of shame going to shower upon you? When are you going to realize that you are one manipulative, immoral, repulsive liar? Until when will you keep misquoting?

This is the translation of the poem:

The Grandeur of Ahmad (saw), the Arab


The goblet of Ahmad (saw), i.e. Muhammad (saw), gives life.
Truly, how sweet is this name of Ahmad (saw).

There are thousands of Prophets, but by God,
the best of them all is the station of Ahmad (saw).

From the garden of Ahmad (saw) we (i.e., Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)) have eaten fruits,
my garden is the sayings of Ahmad (saw).

Leave the mention of Ibn Mariam (as), i.e. Hadhrat Isa (as),
the servant of Ahmad is better than that.*

*Meaning the servants of Ahmad (saw), i.e. Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), have a better status because of the fact, due to the fact, that they are the followers of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw). It means why are you mentioning him when you could be mentioning the khulafaa, the awliyaa, the mufassireen, the muhadditheen, etc.

There is a hadith of the Prophet (saw) where he mentions that the scholars of his ummah have the status of the prophets of the Children of Israel. In other words, they are but scholars but in their capacity they are like prophets. All this is due to them being in his (saw) ummah.

When Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) appeared all other teachings become abrogated, unless Allah brought them in the Quran. But nonetheless, no religion has value in the sight of Allah except for Islam. So, anyone who follows Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) can reach to any height he or she wishes.

He is not insulting Hadhrat Isa (as), he is simply expressing the GRAND STATION of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), and due to the fact that anyone who is a follower of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) is worth mentioning over anyone else..


The reference to this is 4:69:

[4:69] And whoso obeys Allah and this Messenger, i.e. Hadhrat Muhammad (saw), of His shall be among those on whom Allah has bestowed His blessings, namely, the Prophets, the Truthful, the Martyrs, and the Righteous. And excellent companions are these.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Please ask your questions here: http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...h-thread-4095/

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I will finish the rest tomorrow. It is late here.

[akbarkhan]

You have purposefully mistranslated the poem.

He is not saying: Ghulam Ahmad.
He is saying: Ghulam-e Ahmad.

Ghulam Ahmad is his name.
Ghulam-e Ahmad is anyone who is the follower of Hadhrat Muhammad (saw).

Try fooling someone else! I will set your baseless claims alight from two angles.

It is not "Ghulam e ahmad", Urdu language has differences in orthographic and phonetic representations i.e. words are not pronounced as they are represented orthographically.

Let me explain this from another prespective as well, lets suppose that the reference was "ghulam e ahmad", so why is your Dajjal claiming superiority over his supposed master given that he was only a mere "ghulam" in so many other places? See below!

"The Mental development of the holy Messiah (Mirza of Qadian) was higher than that of the holy Prophet(SAW) ... This is only a part of the superiority which the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam) had over the holy Prophet(SAW). The mental faculties of the holy Prophet could not be manifested fully, although the capacity existed, owing to the deficient civilization of thetime.They have now manifested themselves in their full form through thePromised Messiah, by force of the advancement of civilization."(Review of Religions, May 1929; Qadiani Religion, P. 266/241; 9th EditionLahore)

"It is possible for a man to attain a spiritual position higher than any otherman; if any man wishes, he can rise even above Muhammad(SAW)."(Al-Fadl, July 17, 1922, by Mirza Mahmood Ahmad Qadiani)

"[It is a fact that Muhammad(pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles...] MyMiracles exceed one million in number."(Tadhkirah tul Shahadatain, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 20, P. 43)

"Many Thrones descended from the heaven but thy throne has been placed thehighest."(Tadhkirah, P. 346/643, Second Edition - Mirza's "Revelation";Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 89

Allah swt says that a Muslim must never claim to be superior than Mohammad phuh in any attribute!

O you who believe! Do not put yourself ahead of Allah and HisMessenger; But fear Allah: for Allah is He Who hears and knows all things.O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of theProphet, nor speak aloud to him in talk, as you may speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds become vain and you perceive not.(Holy Quran, Al-Hujurat, 49:1-2)

[akbarkhan]

When Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) appeared all other teachings become abrogated, unless Allah brought them in the Quran. But nonetheless, no religion has value in the sight of Allah except for Islam. So, anyone who follows Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) can reach to any height he or she wishes.

Again your sweet talking is nonsense because contrary to your lip service - your authentic source claims that Islam is Satanic because it depends on Shariah and Sunnah!

"That religion is no religion and that Prophet is no prophet by following whoma man does not come so close to God as to be honored with divineconversation (prophethood). That religion is cursed and contemptible whichteaches that human progress depends only on a few narrated anecdotes(Shariah of Islam and Sunnah) and that divine revelations (Wahi) have laggedbehind instead of going ahead.... Such a religion deserves to be called Satanic rather than divine." (Zamimah-e-Barahen-e-Ahmadia, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 21, P. 306; Zamimah-e-Barahen-e-Ahmadia, Part 5, P. 138-139)