Atheist pashtun thread part 2 !

[Badlun]

c.) But Islam, we've had hundreds of years of positive results, it's only the last 30 that's been bad, with Taliban and such, but the rest of the hundreds of years. We had empires, we had military might, access to resources etc etc. Our value were guarded and so on.

None of that happened under Secular Ideology

So logically we'll go with something that's passed the historical litmus test.

Can you please elaborate what are the positive results of the hundreds of years of Islam? I do not see any positive result in science, technology, Philosophy, art, no where. I just see the negative results like banning fine arts and no worthy invention by any Muslim. I just see the bloodshed, empires, killings, even the murders of Omar, Uthman, Ali, Hussein.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Can you please elaborate what are the positive results of the hundreds of years of Islam? I do not see any positive result in science, technology, Philosophy, art, no where. I just see the negative results like banning fine arts and no worthy invention by any Muslim. I just see the bloodshed, empires, killings, even the murders of Omar, Uthman, Ali, Hussein.

Well that's because you're a examining from the lens of Imperialist indoctrination which lacks objectivity. Muslims had empires, military might, access to resources .....this required a some type of knowledge base.

Bloodshed is more common in secular when supervised by secular ideology. Look at World War I, World War II, Iraq War Invasion etc etc etc. So secularism did not rectify bloodhsed problem.

I'm not Anti-secular actually but think Secularism needs to be modified to conform with Islam.

[Badlun]

Well that's because you're a examining from the lens of Imperialist indoctrination which lacks objectivity. Muslims had empires, military might, access to resources .....this required a some type of knowledge base.

Bloodshed is more common in secular when supervised by secular ideology. Look at World War I, World War II, Iraq War Invasion etc etc etc. So secularism did not rectify bloodhsed problem.

I'm not Anti-secular actually but think Secularism needs to be modified to conform with Islam.

My question is not comparing the bloodshed caused by secularism and Islam but I am really curious what are the positive achievements of Islam as you mentioned.

And dont you think Muslims from Mecca and Madina who started invading the whole world at that time was their imperialism which ensued in changing the religion, culture, society and politics of the conquered people.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

My question is not comparing the bloodshed caused by secularism and Islam but I am really curious what are the positive achievements of Islam as you mentioned.

And dont you think Muslims from Mecca and Madina who started invading the whole world at that time was their imperialism which ensued in changing the religion, culture, society and politics of the conquered people.

Well if you mention bloodshed, then you can't use that as a measure of positivity because then Secular Ideology would be more negative if simply because it did not do anything to suppress bloodshed

Otherwise there's no point to mention bloodshed

Well Islam brought people more in balance to their own natural drives, where as Imperialism diverted it. So clearly that is a positive for Islam.

[Badlun]

Well if you mention bloodshed, then you can't use that as a measure of positivity because then Secular Ideology would be more negative if simply because it did not do anything to suppress bloodshed

Otherwise there's no point to mention bloodshed

Well Islam brought people more in balance to their own natural drives, where as Imperialism diverted it. So clearly that is a positive for Islam.

Was Islam also imperialistic in past or not?

Can you please give few examples where Islam brought people more in balance to their own natural drives?

What I see that Islam moved away the people from natural drives related to art, science, philosophy, sex, development , human rights and democracy

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Was Islam also imperialistic in past or not?

Can you please give few examples where Islam brought people more in balance to their own natural drives?

What I see that Islam moved away the people from natural drives related to art, science, philosophy, sex, development , human rights and democracy

Not at all, nothing can be Imperialistic if it brings people back to balance with their own natural drives and faculties. What you see is Obviously incorrect since Art, science, philosophy and learning were all present during times when Islam was predominant societal ruling structure.

Like in Mainstream Secular thinking one of the shortcomings are its attitudes about sexuality, reproduction and social order. Sexuality can be made into a hobby without special rules for commitments. This is not consistent with the functions of reproductive anatomy & physiology of women, which is dysfunctional.l So Islam corrects this problem by having rules which balances sexual desires with our biological structure.

This has great impact on society at large since humans fundamental need is to perpetuate so this allocates resources more effectively and appropriately , less waste, more sustainable. So in reality the rules of Islam have more support for Human rights because it brings people back to a Normal state. and corrects peoples attitudes.

[Badlun]

Not at all, nothing can be Imperialistic if it brings people back to balance with their own natural drives and faculties. What you see is Obviously incorrect since Art, science, philosophy and learning were all present during times when Islam was predominant societal ruling structure.

Like in Mainstream Secular thinking one of the shortcomings are its attitudes about sexuality, reproduction and social order. Sexuality can be made into a hobby without special rules for commitments. This is not consistent with the functions of reproductive anatomy & physiology of women, which is dysfunctional.l So Islam corrects this problem by having rules which balances sexual desires with our biological structure.

This has great impact on society at large since humans fundamental need is to perpetuate so this allocates resources more effectively and appropriately , less waste, more sustainable. So in reality the rules of Islam have more support for Human rights because it brings people back to a Normal state. and corrects peoples attitudes.

Many religions give similar teachings for sex and marriages. Islam has some abnormal injuncrions like polygamy and child marriages and divorce just bu 3 words.
Sex if used only for reproduction then it makes women just children producing factories. This is why we see over populated Muslim societies. Sex can be used once or twice or may be thrice in the whole life for few children but can be a wonderful daily pleasure.This is more natural and now a norm in developed societies espencially for younger people.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Many religions give similar teachings for sex and marriages. Islam has some abnormal injuncrions like polygamy and child marriages and divorce just bu 3 words.
Sex if used only for reproduction then it makes women just children producing factories. This is why we see over populated Muslim societies. Sex can be used once or twice or may be thrice in the whole life for few children but can be a wonderful daily pleasure.This is more natural and now a norm in developed societies espencially for younger people.

Absolutely, remember Islam does not say it is the only time this was revealed. The difference is Islam makes these rules complete with the appropriate guidelines.The reason these rules exist in many different religions is because they represent what is more congruent with Human Interests in accord to their natural drives.

What makes Islam "final" is that it restored those ideas and it completed them to be guarded. Sort of like when WINDOWS O.S. does an update it does not get rid of the Basic Structure it gives the Most Complete structure. This is just an analogy, so don't tell me "Islam is supposed to be forever, and Windows is always updated". I know this already, but the point of the analogy is to demonstrate the idea that Islam was already Understood in many religions before BUT it just CULMINATED in its most Obvious form which is officially called "Islam"

I didn't say sex is only used for reproduction. Sex exists FUNDAMENTALLY for reproduction, So All other sexual needs must be balanced with that function. But let us say you're right for sake of argument that it makes women into "Baby factories". Well if Nature lead to the Evolution of sex for reproduction. Then it must mean Nature has caused us To be Baby Factories. So there's no reason to conflict with the way Nature works because that is our function. So Even based on your understanding it still validates the premise our Biological Functions help us to determine what is the optimal way to live.

This is why it cannot be an Imperialism. Alsom This is why Osho, Current secular ideology cannot work well for humanity because they do not factor in this understanding.

Overpopulation is a more complex issue, but I will say we never had a problem with Overpopulation before Imperiaistic Intervention created imbalances. So this has less to do with Muslims more to do with Imperialism

[Badlun]

Absolutely, remember Islam does not say it is the only time this was revealed. The difference is Islam makes these rules complete with the appropriate guidelines.The reason these rules exist in many different religions is because they represent what is more congruent with Human Interests in accord to their natural drives.

What makes Islam "final" is that it restored those ideas and it completed them to be guarded. Sort of like when WINDOWS O.S. does an update it does not get rid of the Basic Structure it gives the Most Complete structure. This is just an analogy, so don't tell me "Islam is supposed to be forever, and Windows is always updated". I know this already, but the point of the analogy is to demonstrate the idea that Islam was already Understood in many religions before BUT it just CULMINATED in its most Obvious form which is officially called "Islam"

I didn't say sex is only used for reproduction. Sex exists FUNDAMENTALLY for reproduction, So All other sexual needs must be balanced with that function. But let us say you're right for sake of argument that it makes women into "Baby factories". Well if Nature lead to the Evolution of sex for reproduction. Then it must mean Nature has caused us To be Baby Factories. So there's no reason to conflict with the way Nature works because that is our function. So Even based on your understanding it still validates the premise our Biological Functions help us to determine what is the optimal way to live.

This is why it cannot be an Imperialism. Alsom This is why Osho, Current secular ideology cannot work well for humanity because they do not factor in this understanding.

Overpopulation is a more complex issue, but I will say we never had a problem with Overpopulation before Imperiaistic Intervention created imbalances. So this has less to do with Muslims more to do with Imperialism

It means the only pisitive contribution of Islam is regulating sex,baby factories,polygamy,child marriage,easy divorce for men,making woman half of man in evidence and inheritance ,beating of women abd gender segregation.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

It means the only pisitive contribution of Islam is regulating sex,baby factories,polygamy,child marriage,easy divorce for men,making woman half of man in evidence and inheritance ,beating of women abd gender segregation.

Well even if you argue that way. You have to remember that Fundamental Structure of Human Life is through our Biology. So when that is set straight then that is the MOST positive thing it is. But as we said before You're clearly wrong since Most of the Great Islamic Societies had Philosophy, Science and all those things.

What it means is Islam makes the important stuff priority more than secondary stuff like entertainment. Entertainment is important but only AFTER the Basic Structure is established. To make Entertainment the main prority like Osho does is Childish mentality or Spoiled Teenagers in America.

So Islam has been positive in all regards. But you;re trying to avoid it.

[HalloIsBack]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13369076/houston-texans-arian-foster-goes-public-not-believing-god

[Manzareh]

Religion is your private matter so it can enrich you spiritually and morally but the religion like Islamism is anti life and anti development. However I do not agree that those who study in Madrassahs can lead academics. I have studied for 3 years in a madrassah and know what they teach. Darse Nizamya is just sarf, nahwa, fiq which has nothing to do with modern world.

We are all animals but talking , social and logical. Our animal or biological needs like food, shelter, sex etc must be first realized then we can actualize our higher goals being a human being.

Your belief system is your private matter also, why should you be allowed to voice your hatred against religion whilst we are not allowed to show our love of religion. It doesn't work like that. 3 years in madrasah is nothing.

[Manzareh]

That's the problem with an Islamic society. You get ostracized and beaten the crap out of for leaving Islam. That kind of behavior is really backwards and needs to go.

It's nothing to do with Islamic society, it's Pashtun society, we don't sit back and let someone openly blaspheme and disrespect us in our faces, whether it's religion or anything else. Like this Khostai guy, he will never be able to go to Khost and talk the same BS that he does online, he is a non-Muslim a disrespectful blasphemer and will get his face smashed in. It's reality, we're hot headed people by nature.

[Damir9000]

It's nothing to do with Islamic society, it's Pashtun society, we don't sit back and let someone openly blaspheme and disrespect us in our faces, whether it's religion or anything else. Like this Khostai guy, he will never be able to go to Khost and talk the same BS that he does online, he is a non-Muslim a disrespectful blasphemer and will get his face smashed in. It's reality, we're hot headed people by nature.

You mean ignorant and intolerant. This is not unique among pashtuns.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Your belief system is your private matter also, why should you be allowed to voice your hatred against religion whilst we are not allowed to show our love of religion. It doesn't work like that. 3 years in madrasah is nothing.

and this here is exactly why ....although I do think we should adopt secular values I DO NOT think The Type of Secularism Badlun believes it should be allowed in society.

Islam was established PUBLICLY, it was APPLIED Publicly, it should be EXPRESSED Publicly.