There is no Islamism in Islam

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Tomatoe tomato

[khushal]

Its more like:

Tomato, 93 to 95% water. Half the dry matter is reducing sugars, with slightly more fructose than glucose tomatoes also contain citric, malic and dicarboxylic amino acids, lipids, minerals and alcohol-insoluble solids (AIS), which include cellulose, hemicellulose, pectic substances and proteins

[Pakwatan]

Its more like:

Tomato, 93 to 95% water. Half the dry matter is reducing sugars, with slightly more fructose than glucose tomatoes also contain citric, malic and dicarboxylic amino acids, lipids, minerals and alcohol-insoluble solids (AIS), which include cellulose, hemicellulose, pectic substances and proteins

Are you a chem major bro?

[Khorosani]

Irrelevant, this is not a subjective discussion. Next.



Whether you or I feel it is beghairat, it is irrelevant to the credibility of the report. You need to LEARN LOGIC!!!! Why are you so afraid of rational argument and rely so heavily on Emotional pull? Grow up.



No it says INVESTIGATE the source; You don't even understand Islam, it's quite sad really. But There's NO REASON for them to lie on this matter. Most Afghans and Pashtuns especially WOULD CHEER the Taliban for murdering a couple who fell in love and wanted to be together. The target audience would see no issue in this. However, only a handful of people realize how UnIslamic that is. The Qur'an also teaches us to use our minds ...and you aren't using yours ....maybe you lack the required equipment?




Caught red handed in what? Your contention is BOGUS even if we take it as meritable. There's no change here I'm explaining to you that your claims are nosnensical on grounds of logic.



Prove to me how it would be relevant to the case from a perspective of Truth Value...using proper logical processes without making faulty assumptions.



No you prove that THE SPECIFIC security forces who are involved IN THIS CASE are doing the things you claim. YOU MADE THE CLAIm, burden is on you.

Guilty until proven innocent is NOT Shari'ah; this would shows your hypocrisy if you think otherwise



That's not how it works in the Real World; The Source is valid as long as the truth value of its content is valid and one way we can measure the truth value is see that lying would serve no motive to present the information.

Again ...start studying LOGI and stop being lead like a donkey by that wacko Mullah you study under.





The Taliban do not deny it, so they must have accepted it. It's simple reasoning. Taliban generally deny things they're not involved in.




BUT it doesn't show that the security forces SPECIFICALLY INVOLVED ./..IN ...THIS SPECIFIC CASE are corrupt

Remember no AUTOMATIC guilt by association.




You think forcing a woman to have sex against her will is not rape and you're asking if I'm beghairat. That's rich.

You are a beghairat, you have no eza for the deen.

Getting money for upholding kufri laws and system is fisq and kufr. The security official that was reporting the story (i pointed to his facebook) is with kuffar and thus he is a fasiq for supporting them against the Muslims. All the fusaaq who take money from karzai to uphold his kufri laws are fusaaq and thus from all of them you can't take their information. As for the taliban not responding, they usually don't respond to one time stories that have been mentioned here or there, theres no point. Big stories like having a 10 year old committing suicide for them or bombing the red cross hospital are stories they usually cover. You are also using double standards. For the commander i used because he is a Talib his OUTRIGHT STATEMENT that they rule with "pure sharia" is not taken but you don't want to apply the same thing for the fusaaq beghairat watan forosh security officials.

If you can't answer if the kuffar are allowed to invade dar ul islam than you've shown the shallowness of your knowledge.

Supporting bollywood is fisq, no doubt about that. Same with Ahmad Shah Massood.

and badlun shut up, revolution without reason is not an islamist, he's a modernist like you.

The point of me showing the article is that as a whole the security officials have the label of being corrupt, thus anyone who is joined with them hold the same quality. It's the same as a person joining a gang, he is guilty by association and is considered a fasiq and in the dunya we judge him on the thahir as for his niyyah that's between him and Allah.

[Pakwatan]

You are a beghairat, you have no eza for the deen.

Getting money for upholding kufri laws and system is fisq and kufr. The security official that was reporting the story (i pointed to his facebook) is with kuffar and thus he is a fasiq for supporting them against the Muslims. All the fusaaq who take money from karzai to uphold his kufri laws are fusaaq and thus from all of them you can't take their information. As for the taliban not responding, they usually don't respond to one time stories that have been mentioned here or there, theres no point. Big stories like having a 10 year old committing suicide for them or bombing the red cross hospital are stories they usually cover. You are also using double standards. For the commander i used because he is a Talib his OUTRIGHT STATEMENT that they rule with "pure sharia" is not taken but you don't want to apply the same thing for the fusaaq beghairat watan forosh security officials.

If you can't answer if the kuffar are allowed to invade dar ul islam than you've shown the shallowness of your knowledge.

Supporting bollywood is fisq, no doubt about that. Same with Ahmad Shah Massood.

and badlun shut up, revolution without reason is not an islamist, he's a modernist like you.

The point of me showing the article is that as a whole the security officials have the label of being corrupt, thus anyone who is joined with them hold the same quality. It's the same as a person joining a gang, he is guilty by association and is considered a fusaaq and in the dunya we judge him on the thahir as for his niyyah that's between him and Allah.

AS-Salam Alaykum bro,


I will not call you a beghairat, because I do not know you, and it is not my place to judge you.

I support Afghan Taliban in terms of ridding their lands of foreign occupation. However, Afghan taliban is jahil. Afghan taliban is as bad as NATO. Afghani taliban needs to realize that we are not living in such an era(zamana) that their thinking is relevant.

I realize both Afghan Taliban and TTP are exacting revenge, but at the same time, they are killing the innocent people. I understand that many of their innocents have been killed, but why do they kill the innocents of others? Does this not make them as bad as Pakistani Army and Afghan National Army?

Just today, some Pakistani kids picked up a toy in their street in Hangu. They brought the toy home and it blew up and killed the kids. I can understand if Taliban have grievances, but why such a thing?

Why these kids that are considered farishta are dying?

I used to be a taliban sympathizer, but after hearing such news they are no better than Pakistani Army.

Regarding the poor children, here is the news article. It made my heart sink when I read it.

HANGU: At least six children of a family have been killed Sunday evening and one other injured after an explosion at a house in Babar Mela area of Hangu district, officials said.

District Police officer iftikhar Ahmed told Dawn.com that the children were killed after a toy bomb which the children were playing with went off.

The police said the dead children belonged to the family of a local villager Fazl Gul in Babar Mela area near Orakzai Agency.

Officials said eyewitnesses had told them that the children found the toy-like bomb in a field and were playing with it when it exploded, killing five boys on the spot.

One girl later died at the hospital while another boy is being treated for injuries.

The DPO said the house of the individual Fazl Gul is being searched for a possible terror link and have started an investigation into the incident.

The police in charge of the area Taj Muhammad, while quoting the bomb disposal squad officials, said that it was a hand grenade bomb which caused the death of the six children.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1082849/exp...ldren-in-hangu
Is this Islam? Is this Pashtun culture?

NO! Not at all.

This is criminal. This is disgusting. The taliban are not winning my support by doing such things.

This is utterly shameful.

[Manzareh]

How are certain the toy that was found in a field was the product of Taliban and not anyone else?

[Khorosani]

AS-Salam Alaykum bro,


I will not call you a beghairat, because I do not know you, and it is not my place to judge you.

I support Afghan Taliban in terms of ridding their lands of foreign occupation. However, Afghan taliban is jahil. Afghan taliban is as bad as NATO. Afghani taliban needs to realize that we are not living in such an era(zamana) that their thinking is relevant.

I realize both Afghan Taliban and TTP are exacting revenge, but at the same time, they are killing the innocent people. I understand that many of their innocents have been killed, but why do they kill the innocents of others? Does this not make them as bad as Pakistani Army and Afghan National Army?

Just today, some Pakistani kids picked up a toy in their street in Hangu. They brought the toy home and it blew up and killed the kids. I can understand if Taliban have grievances, but why such a thing?

Why these kids that are considered farishta are dying?

I used to be a taliban sympathizer, but after hearing such news they are no better than Pakistani Army.

Regarding the poor children, here is the news article. It made my heart sink when I read it.



http://www.dawn.com/news/1082849/exp...ldren-in-hangu
Is this Islam? Is this Pashtun culture?

NO! Not at all.

This is criminal. This is disgusting. The taliban are not winning my support by doing such things.

This is utterly shameful.

I actually have a lot of criticism for Afghan taliban and TTP, TTP more so. Afghan Taliban are one of the best jihadi groups currently in the world, they are much better than most right now. However saying that they rule by pashtunwali is an outright lie and slander. That doesn't mean i agree with them

I don't recognize the source you've presented. So i won't take the story as true until proven otherwise. My grievances with TTP however is with their extremes in takfir and some of their stupid techniques that alhamdulillah the Taliban haven't done like them. Doesn't mean that i'll say the stupidity of revolutionwithoutreason says that they rule by pashtunwali through ONE very dubious source.

He trusts the source of the security officials and says i don't judge them all with their LEADERS actions but they take one unknown commander (who we don't know if he is even a taliban commander, or what was the story behind what he did, or whether the story is even true to begin with and above all that the implementation of ONE commander does not mean that they are NOT an islamic state) as a meaning that they don't rule by sharia and rule by pashtunwali. double standards much?

I gave a source straight from a Taliban commander from their website that they want "pure sharia" and their actions in totality proves that to be the case.

So that the remaining regions of the country are cleansed from the rule of disbelief and replaced with Shariah based and an independent government, in accordance with the Jihadi aspirations of the believing nation, the Islamic Emirate, as in the past, entitles current years monumental spring operation by the name of Islamic history’s victorious General ‘Khalid bin Waleed R.A’.

We also forget that there are a lot of hardcore anti otherthansharia members beside the Taliban such as the harakat of uzbekistan and TTP in addition to AQC. It would be idiotic to think these groups would comply with the taliban while they rule with pashtunwali.

[Khorosani]

I was thinking and I want to say that I am sorry to brother revolutionthroughreason for the name calling, it was uncalled for and such behavior is unislamic.

I still don't agree with your statements or your methodology.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You are a beghairat, you have no eza for the deen.

Your Wahhabist interpretations are NOT the deen. There are MANY ways to look at the same verses you quote and many contexts.

Getting money for upholding kufri laws and system is fisq and kufr.

Which kufar laws do they uphold, you need to be specific with full details

The security official that was reporting the story (i pointed to his facebook) is with kuffar

You showed a picture with a NATO guy. This doesn't prove anything. You're assuming things without qualified DIRECT evidence. You're pushing Taliban's narrative. Regardless this doesn't even factor in since the TRUTH value of the story is unaffected by any of this. There's no motive what so ever. to make up this story.

and thus he is a fasiq for supporting them against the Muslims. All the fusaaq who take money from karzai to uphold his kufri laws are fusaaq and thus from all of them you can't take their information.

Not true, remember after defeating Banu Nadir, when Kenana lied about where the treasure was but a Jew came to Nabi(saw) to reveal the news that Kenana was lying and that he saw where he put the treasure.This is a perfect example that you can take information from a kufar as long as you can reason they have no motivation to lie. See ...reason.... LOGIC you need to learn REAL Islam not the reinterpreted rubbish you're being taught.

As for the taliban not responding, they usually don't respond to one time stories that have been mentioned here or there, theres no point.
Big stories like having a 10 year old committing suicide for them or bombing the red cross hospital are stories they usually cover.

THis was a BIG story.

You are also using double standards. For the commander i used because he is a Talib his OUTRIGHT STATEMENT that they rule with "pure sharia"

Because they DO NOT rule with Pure Shari'ah. The Taliban is more guilty of fisq because here the Taliban has a reason to lie. The other party doesn't.

If you can't answer if the kuffar are allowed to invade dar ul islam than you've shown the shallowness of your knowledge.

Your question is irrelevant to the topic. Not very smart are you? You can Believe whatever you want to believe ....you're clearly in denial. But I showed the evidence, you accept it or deny it.

The end

[Badlun]

Not even TWO secularists agree about the fundamentals of Secularism So if you say that is proof Islam is not suitable, then this applies even MORE so with Secularists; after all World War I, II, Vietnam War, Korean War, Tamil Tigers and many others were Secularists fighting Secularists about how to apply secularism. However we're not debating about fundamentals of Shari'ah so even in terms of your statement your assesment is incorrect. We're debating about Taliban applying PASHTUNWALI methods and claiming them as Shari'ah. Pashtunwali is NOT fundamental to Shari'ahI posted a case where Taliiban murdered an unmarried eloping couple this is called TOR in Pashtunwali and TOR receives death penalty in Pashtunwali However in Islam ...that is not the correct penalty. So what we're debating here is people who follow ACTUAL Shari'ah and people like Taliban who mix Pashtunwali and call it Shari'ah. BIG difference,

Secularists do no have sects which are killing each other and calling each other kaafir. Secularism is a political and philosophical concept and it does not have the emotionalism and sentimentalism of Islamism. Its definition and concepts are clearly described with various details by different thinkers.

Secularism is not a legal system. Secular countries are governed by constitution and democracy not by the so called divine injunctions which have different interpretation by different sects and each one call its own the only truth.

Mixing Pashtunwali with Islamism is another proof that Islamism or sharia cannot work. No society can be purely governed by Sharia because religion can change the moral and spiritual outlook of a society but it cannot wipe out its culture and social norms. Pashtuns are practicing Pashtunwali for thousands of years while they are introduced to Islam 1400 years as a religion and Islamism after 1979. The existence of Pashtunwali in Taliban is a proof that Sharia is not enough to maange affairs of a society or state.

[Khorosani]

Your Wahhabist interpretations are NOT the deen. There are MANY ways to look at the same verses you quote and many contexts.

I'm not a salafi, I don't know how much times I have to repeat this. I don't take my deen from sheikh Muhammad ibn Abdul wahhab at all, although I wont disrespect him like most on here. You can't bring me one alim that agrees with your stance on slaves, nor your criticisms of ta'zeer nor a scholar that approves your state of mind.

Ibn katheer on his tafsir of the ayah that I posted stated that hadith narration are not accepted if the people in them are unknown

Which kufar laws do they uphold, you need to be specific with full details

I don't know, maybe allowing the kuffar in your land? Killing a muslim for the sake of a kafir harbi, imprisoning muslims instead of applying the hudood.

You showed a picture with a NATO guy. This doesn't prove anything. You're assuming things without qualified DIRECT evidence. You're pushing Taliban's narrative. Regardless this doesn't even factor in since the TRUTH value of the story is unaffected by any of this. There's no motive what so ever. to make up this story.

So making up a story to make your enemies look bad is not a motive? Reading that khama news agency you can see that they are pro-government pro ahmad shah masood pro Bollywood. They are not a source to take from. Of course it would be a good motive to make your enemies look bad. They learn it from their father George bush jr and their masters America.

Not true, remember after defeating Banu Nadir, when Kenana lied about where the treasure was but a Jew came to Nabi(saw) to reveal the news that Kenana was lying and that he saw where he put the treasure.This is a perfect example that you can take information from a kufar as long as you can reason they have no motivation to lie. See ...reason.... LOGIC you need to learn REAL Islam not the reinterpreted rubbish you're being taught.

this story is not on your side because of the ayah and because of the story of abu bakr not taking from the kuffar who told him about Isra wal miraj. The reason for that was because Abu Bakr (RA) was attaining information about Muslims from kuffar not about kuffar from kuffar, as this story demonstrates. In addition the narration of this story is ibn ishaq and seera can't be used for laws and methodologies when the chain is weak. Search up the criticisms gained from this story and other stories ibn ishaq has narrated from jew converts.

THis was a BIG story.

It apparently was a big story, but there have been bigger stories and lies cast against them that they didn't answer. I remember asking about the story of the prostitute that was shot in Kabul soccer stadium and apparently from the people who saw the execution said it wasn't a prostitute but a women who killed her husband. It was qisas. So of course lies take place against the Taliban, there is a whole campaign from the kuffar against them.

Here is another story that was answered by the Taliban. However the kuffar are known for misrepresenting words of their spokesmen so I still take this with a grain of salt.

http://deathpenaltynews.blogspot.ae/...couple-to.html

A women that really does commit adultery and the Taliban admit they did the execution! So they admit this and they don't admit the other? It would make sense that they would.

Because they DO NOT rule with Pure Shari'ah. The Taliban is more guilty of fisq because here the Taliban has a reason to lie. The other party doesn't.

The Taliban obviously have mistakes in applying sharia, but so did the uthamaniyya, abbassids, and the ummayads. Although you still consider them Islamic states. In addition the opposition has more of a reason because the Taliban are not ashamed to claim controversial attacks and actions like applying the hudood, killing afghan soldiers (which is a big controversy in Afghanistan, anybody who goes there knows) and of course their suicide bombings.

Your question is irrelevant to the topic. Not very smart are you? You can Believe whatever you want to believe ....you're clearly in denial. But I showed the evidence, you accept it or deny it.

The end

sorry, if you take your sorry excuse for evidence to an Islamic court it would be rejected. The question is very relevant, because if they kuffar are not allowed than Karzai's government is aiding them in the impermissible law. In addition than those security officials are not fighting them but inviting them in their offices and commenting on how much of a good visit they had (as was seen in the facebook comments of one of the pictures). thus being friendly with the kuffar and harsh on the Muslims is fisq (the real khawarij). Protecting a government that protects haarib kuffar is fisq and that's why I asked the question. good job dodging it though.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Secularists do no have sects which are killing each other and calling each other kaafir. Secularism is a political and philosophical concept and it does not have the emotionalism and sentimentalism of Islamism. Its definition and concepts are clearly described with various details by different thinkers.

Secularism is not a legal system. Secular countries are governed by constitution and democracy not by the so called divine injunctions which have different interpretation by different sects and each one call its own the only truth.

Mixing Pashtunwali with Islamism is another proof that Islamism or sharia cannot work. No society can be purely governed by Sharia because religion can change the moral and spiritual outlook of a society but it cannot wipe out its culture and social norms. Pashtuns are practicing Pashtunwali for thousands of years while they are introduced to Islam 1400 years as a religion and Islamism after 1979. The existence of Pashtunwali in Taliban is a proof that Sharia is not enough to maange affairs of a society or state.

Actually yes they do; in fact more secularists killed each other than anyone else. NAZI's Killed Russian Communists in Millions. Both were different sects of Secularism. American Capitalist Secularists killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese Communist Secularists. Numerous examples. More people have died at the hands of secular regimes as a consequence of their agendas and ideology

There is no "mixing" of Shari'ah with Pashtunwali; Islam/Shari'ah cannot mix with anything. What it proves is that what the Taliban were applying was Pashtunwali and not Shari'ah and that their corruption stems from applying Pashtunwali and has no impact on the merits of Shari'ah. The relationship of Islam/Shari'ah and cultural norms is a different than applying cultural laws contrary to Shari'ah. Islam accommodates cultural dynamics as long as they're not OUTRIGHTLY opposing the objectives of Shari'ah. The Accommodation of Islam to cultural norms does not mean Pashtunwali is an acceptable cultural form of Islam. In fact it is not.

Also Islamism is just a special code for Islam, itself there is no difference, it refers to the same thing according to English Dictionaries. Westerners invented the word to make it seem as if they were not trying to deride Islam itself but in reality it refers to Islam as Islam is a social-political-intellectual movement all in one as shown by history. Pashtuns have applied Pashtunwali is the reason why they were backwards. Islamic Shari'ah has proven to be beautiful because of the magnificent empires that ruled by Shari'ah as we see with Abbasids and the Golden Age of Islam.

[Khorosani]

I was searching up this story, and actually RevolutionthroughReason shot himself in the foot

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ed-afghanistan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10983494

although I don't take any account this story. RTR however does. Both sources say that the man was married and the women engaged. People know that some Pashtuns finish nikkah early before the marriage and name it engagement anyway. However since the man was married the stoning punishment (if proven that they did do the act through confession or 4 witnesses) is applied on both of them.

The only thing that you can argue here isn't if they apply Pashtunwali but if they applied the sharia wrongly in this case which I wouldn't agree or disagree because I don't know the story from the Talibans side. If they did than yes they did it wrongly but NO they are still a sharia state because they didn't take a source from other than Islam. Only applied the ruling wrongly.

I'm stating this assuming the story presented from the stories are correct, which of course I don't buy.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Ibn katheer on his tafsir of the ayah that I posted stated that hadith narration are not accepted if the people in them are unknown

Anyone who stresses Ibn Kathir over Zamakhshari or Jalalayn is essentially following the Doctrines favored by Wahhabis.

I don't know, maybe allowing the kuffar in your land? Killing a muslim for the sake of a kafir harbi, imprisoning muslims instead of applying the hudood.

This is not a "law" as you suggested and more over Using Prison system is acceptable. Many instances where Hudud was amended in Islam when it serves better interest of society. That's actually a concept in Shari'ah, used even during the time of Khalifa Rashideen.

So making up a story to make your enemies look bad is not a motive?

But I already responded to this; in Afghanistan or Middle Eastern countries it would not make them look bad; because people are ignorant of Islam and there is widespread attitude that Murdering Eloping lovers is JUSTIFIED. KHAMA.com's target audience is not Western/American. So this would not be a motive otherwise they're doing it wrong.

this story is not on your side because of the ayah

It is because we know that the Jew was apart of Banu Nadhir, who were warring against Muslims and rejected Nabi(saw) so by definition a fsiq, and his testimony was taken as factual.

You are just ignorant and uneducated because you just listen to what your Sheikh tells you rather than researching things. Your Sheikh just wants to keep you under his mind control so he doesn't tell you everything, he hides information from you so he can mold you into thinking the way he wants.

It apparently was a big story, but there have been bigger stories and lies cast against them that they didn't answer.

Well you admit it is a big story and if it is big we see no denial from the Taliban which implies they accept it. Which is consistent with the other evidence since Taliban are targeting Afghan audience and they will appeal to the norms of Afghanistan. Killing run away lovers is a norm especially for Pashtuns.

The Taliban obviously have mistakes in applying sharia, but so did the uthamaniyya, abbassids, and the ummayads.

The difference is the Taliban claim their "mistakes" are Shari'ah; so it's a CRIME not a mistake. Why do you make it sound so light for the Taliban and so evil for others? Total hypocrisy. No the Taliban DID crimes. Crimes against Islam itself are not acceptable.

sorry, if you take your sorry excuse for evidence to an Islamic court it would be rejected.

Don't be so sure, Islamic Law is VERY sophisticated; If you examine the Islamic canon of legal processes you will see that NO one was ever criminalized for guilty by association or for Allegedly having done some other action wrong. They were guilty on basis of evidence and probable motive. This is another evidence that you're Wahhabi because of your approach.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I was searching up this story, and actually RevolutionthroughReason shot himself in the foot

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ed-afghanistan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10983494

although I don't take any account this story. RTR however does. Both sources say that the man was married and the women engaged. People know that some Pashtuns finish nikkah early before the marriage and name it engagement anyway. However since the man was married the stoning punishment (if proven that they did do the act through confession or 4 witnesses) is applied on both of them.

The only thing that you can argue here isn't if they apply Pashtunwali but if they applied the sharia wrongly in this case which I wouldn't agree or disagree because I don't know the story from the Talibans side. If they did than yes they did it wrongly but NO they are still a sharia state because they didn't take a source from other than Islam. Only applied the ruling wrongly.

I'm stating this assuming the story presented from the stories are correct, which of course I don't buy.

She was engaged BUT not married, engagement is not marriage. There is no engagement in Islam. ...a man can marry up to 4 wives in Islam. There is no evidence that either had sexual intercourse with each other. So they did in fact take a ruling from other than Islam, it is not merely applying a ruling wrongly. So are you sure I shot myself in the foot? And you're not taking Kafirs as evidence but you're using these sources? I was right you only pull that Card when it doesn't serve your agenda .You can never use this argument again since you have contradicted yourself.