The Mu'tazilah, Founders of the Islamic Golden Age

[khushal]

like an arab link would be less biased.
from what i have read, contributions to the islamic golden age came from many quarters. persions, egyptian, roman, greek, indian, andalusia. paper making from china. knowledge and experience for this age was not just from arabs or iraqis.
ibn sina from afshana, near bhukara, averroes from andalusia. indian knowledge of mathematics contributed, greek philosophy etc.

al arab has inferiority complex like yourself. There were even europeans and jews that contributed. Most significant was that they translated greek work.

Al Arab think that Arabic numerals were also made by iraqis and the strange thing is that iraqis did not even exist then. hahahaha

[khushal]

The golden age of Islam ended when Ali Ibn Abi Talib was assassinated. It then went from "Islamic" to a regular kingdom, where power is the main concern.

the golden age ended when the mongols came in and burned the cities to the ground and killed every scholar they could get their hand on. DEtroying most of the knowledge that was collected.

The failure to prevent attacks by the mongols led to a military leadership which led to having all resources diverted to building a powerful military instead of advancing knowledge of the world.
Same thing happened to the soviet union and imperial japan who spent all their resources on military expansion. Sacrifice knowledge and advancement for survival.

[faye]

khushal, petal, don't project your own weaknesses and defects onto me.
i am not the one with the inferiority complex, who lives a hypocritical lifestyle, with his own enemy

[khushal]

khushal, petal, don't project your own weaknesses and defects onto me.
i am not the one with the inferiority complex, who lives a hypocritical lifestyle, with his own enemy

your statement reminded me of this. I love this movie.
keep your friends CLOSE..but your enemies CLOSER - YouTube


I have no enemies faye, I am friend to all

[faye]

is that who you identify with? lol. that dude with the big honk.
keep that honk close to your american, bosom buddies,

haha.. we've seen how much you love your secular, immoral, non islamic society.

[کیش]

the golden age ended when the mongols came in and burned the cities to the ground and killed every scholar they could get their hand on. DEtroying most of the knowledge that was collected.

The failure to prevent attacks by the mongols led to a military leadership which led to having all resources diverted to building a powerful military instead of advancing knowledge of the world.
Same thing happened to the soviet union and imperial japan who spent all their resources on military expansion. Sacrifice knowledge and advancement for survival.

Sounds like when Jerusalem was sacked by the Assyrians and Babylonians, doesn't it? God's chosen people in those times were the Hebrew, but they were weak in faith, and scolded their Prophets.

When were talking about Islam, and Khlifah's, were talking about a leader with the strongest faith in the lord of the universe. Not a ruler hell-bent on power and territory.

In those real Islamic "Golden Era," ended when the brother Ali was killed. Then it just went down hill; he was the last leader he cared anout the message (his sons were too). After his murder, the sects and all that started to emerge. Ali's rival, Muawiya, was a strong leader but it was wordly pursuits, and not necessarily, bringing the glad tidings that God sent a messenger to help out humanity.

[al-arab]

Wait a second. Who said that that non-Arabs did not contribute? The fact still remains that the we the Arabs contributed the most.

The oldest Arabic scripture, Kufic, was invented in modern day Iraq. So yes, the modern day Iraqis (being the ancestors of the ancient Semetic civilizations and Arabs) can claim it more than anyone else.

And cities you mean those in current day Iraq since that was were the al-khilafa al-abbasiyyah was based for 500 years.

And the text that were translated from Greek to Arabic and latter European languages were originally copied from the ancient Babylonians and Mesopotamians since the Greeks got most of their ideas from there like the Persians and most other civilizations due to Mesopotamia/Babylonia having an much older culture. Science and math especially.

I think brother badmash-kehl found an excellent article that stated how the Persians copied the ancient Semetic civilizations in Iraq and later claimed it as their own.

[asad71]

The differences can be exploited for material gain.

1. That is the whole point.

2. However, if we realized that Islam is an inclusive faith, not exclusive, most of our frictions would disappear. If we considered coolly these differences really emanated from silly incidents most of the time - having no relevance to the present days, except as tools of exploitation by political and religious leaders.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Baghdad was one of the main centers of the Mu'tazilah. Mu'tazilah are Sunnis, they're just a certain school of thought.

http://www.rationalist.com.au/archive/62/p27-34.pdf

The Mu'tazilah was the first Sunni rationalist theological school,
founded in Basrah and later developed in Baghdadin particular during
al-Ma'mun's caliphate from 813 to 833 CE.

Al-Ma’mun, the Abbasid caliph, encouraged the development
of rational thinking and philosophy in Baghdad. He also patronised the Mu’tazilah school, and during his time several Mu’tazilah scholars reached positions in government administrations.

[Afghanistan2010]

You are not even close Shia,forget then talking about Sunnis,there are shias who does not such kuffar as Mutazilahas does.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You are not even close Shia,forget then talking about Sunnis,there are shias who does not such kuffar as Mutazilahas does.

If Mu'tazilah do kufr, why did Allah(swt) give them so much blessing during the Islamic Golden age that we're responsible for all the science, mathematics and logic of the Islamic Golden age?
don't you too always talk about the Islamic Golden Age? Who do you think caused all that, I mean by Allah(swt)'s will of course. It was the Mu'tazilah. Do you think Taliban can create an Islamic Golden age, most of them HATE REAL education. Anyone can name call, shout "kaafir kafir" ....but real Kufar is shown by their actions. Look at the Taliban, cowards who murder Muslim people. Look at the Mu'tazilah, great scientists, thinkers , engineers.

The difference is clear.

[R3SISTANC3]

You are not even close Shia,forget then talking about Sunnis,there are shias who does not such kuffar as Mutazilahas does.

What kufr have they committed?

[R3SISTANC3]

Validity of hadith

In the Islamic sciences, hadith are classified into two types regarding their authenticity. The first type is diffusely recurrent (mutawatir) reports — those that have come down to later generations through a large number of chains of narration, involving diverse transmitters such that it is virtually impossible that all these people, living in different localities and espousing different views, would come together, fabricate exactly the same lie and attribute it to the Prophet of Islam or any other authority. A large number of narrators is not a sufficient criterion for authenticating a report because people belonging to some sect or party may have an interest in fabricating reports that promote their agendas. The power of this mode of transmission, tawatur, rests on both the number and diversity of narrators at each stage of transmission. On the other hand, the authority of the second type of reports, ahaad, those which do not meet the criteria for tawatur, is considered speculative.

'Abd al-Jabbar commented on the issue of reports saying (Martin et al., 1997): Mu'tazilis declare as true all that is established by mutawatir reports, by which we know what the Messenger of God has said. And that which was narrated by one or two transmitters only, or by one for whom error was possible, such reports are unacceptable in religions (al-diyanat) but they are acceptable in the proceedings of positive law (furu` l-fiqh), as long as the narrator is trustworthy, competent, just, and he has not contradicted what is narrated in the Qur'an.

Thus, the non-mutawatir reports are accepted by Mu'tazilis, according to 'Abd al-Jabbar, when it comes to the details or branches of law. When it comes to basic tenets, these reports are not considered authentic enough to establish a belief central to the Islamic faith. That is, the Mu'tazilis main issue is with reports of speculative authenticity that have a theological, rather than legal, content, when these seem to contravene the definitives of the Qur'an and rational proof. Since the doctrines that Mu'tazilis hated most were anthropomorphism and unqualified predestination (Ess, 2006), it were reports supporting these and resisting all hermeneutical attempts at harmonizing and reconciliation that were criticized and rejected by Mu'tazilis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazila

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That is very interesting.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

What kufr have they committed?

they don't believe that the Qur'an is co-eternal with Allah(swt) they believe Allah (swt) created the Qur'an
Belief that most of the attributes of Allah are primarily relational (meaning they only pertain to his relationship with created objects).
Belief that Allah(swt) is entirely good and he can do no wrong , ever, wrong is only the result of deviation from Allah(swt), Allah(swt) only allows the possibility of deviation to grant moral responsibility.
Belief Allah(swt) is always just, and thus, people are their own actors, they're not pre-determined to do wrong or good. Otherwise it would be unjust for Allah(swt) to punish people for things they had no control over.
belief that a Muslim who does a major sin is neither a believer or disbeliever, but a fasiq.
That every Believer has a responsibility to determine within their own intellect the veracity or truth of Allah(swt)'s existence, that they cannot merely inherit belief from custom nor from habit nor from dogma.


there are many others but I gave a more simplified synopsis.

[R3SISTANC3]

And thats kufr?


I googled Mu'tazila, and this video came up

The jahmiyah, mu'tazila and their beliefs - YouTube


I guess the idea that Gods presence is above created existence and non-existence, is a bit too much. Like fish in the water probably think there is nothing out side of their existence. But the most interesting part was how he interpreted that to = God doesn't exist at all ?????