Sufi of Kandahar, Afghanistan

[randolph85]

Thanks, I saw this and am glad you posted it because it raises a few more questions.

1. The assertion by a few here is that there is an evil supernexus that goes like this:
Washington DC ---order barks---> AQ ----order barks---> Taliban ----> Things get messed up ----> Washington uses as pretext to stay

So these documents appear to counter this ideology that appears to have some traction here at PF (i.e. its non evidence based - see Havi Sultans recent write up).

2. It shows that GOE's original point a few months ago about multiple groups being active without a control appartus is a valid one. This also means that Omar himself probably cannot exert more than nominal control over the Haqqani Network.

this is understood, but it destroys the narrative that the taliban hold some moral high ground and that they are not associated with such heinous attacks.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Take for instance the Vietcong turning their guns on the rural population that US backed South Vietnam program devised to lure the rural population:

"Komer persisted with his reforms despite the opposition, wanting to involve the rural
population in the war on the government's side instead of allowing them to be neutral.
Once they committed themselves to the government, the Viet Cong had to consider them enemies. Between 1967 and 1970, the RF/PFs increased in strength from 300,000 to 534,000 troops. Throughout this period it was actually these RF/PFs that saw the most action of all South Vietnamese military units. They also took the brunt of the combat casualties, accounting for sixty-six percent of South Vietnam's combat deaths in 1970".

http://www.hoosier84.com/phx.pdf

The RF/PF were the equivalent of the ANA. Now, if you examine the ferocity of the Veitcong response and the sheer numbers of villagers in the RF/PF and you did surveys in Vietnam I bet you would get some odd results.

Take this old RAND survey from back in the day:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_me.../RM5267z2.html

"The strength of the Viet Cong lies principally in its organization, not in its ideology or promises of material betterment. Until a way is found to loosen the grip of the organization, the Viet Cong structure is likely to survive. The decrease in popular support for the Viet Cong during the past two or three years seems to be based in part on acquaintance with what life is like under the Viet Cong and in part on the fact that fewer rural people now expect the insurgents to win the war. The change is significant as an indication that people in the villages controlled by the Viet Cong may be ready to accept and support a government that is able to serve and protect them."

Ominous how eerily similar the language sounds doesnt it??

[RevolutionThroughReason]

dont mention it, cone-head.

anytime bacha berish

[BarakzaiAbdali]

this is understood, but it destroys the narrative that the taliban hold some moral high ground and that they are not associated with such heinous attacks.

As passive observers, I think you and I could say that it could also show a disconnect that is inherent to assymetric warfare. That disconnect is that there appears to be little in the way of a reasonable CENTCOM of sorts that bind the disparate groups. What binds them is that their ideological views are a little closer to eachothers than NATOs and that they have a series of common ideological enemies.

Lets say we set up a standard. You've probably noted that I avoid commenting on the US troop atrocities threads. I mean I just think its ludricous for Afghan emigres who support a NATO presence to not expect that in war, things like the Bale incident are going to happen. When you introduce an army into another country you enter with the working assumption that there are going to be casualties thare unwanted and unwarranted. From the US vantage point I can see their disdain because it affects the narrative of the moral imperitive and the morale of the armed forces. If you recall when I had a few less gray hairs about a decade ago, the moral imperitive was twofold: protect America and help the Afghan people. In Iraq was much the same. As the Iraqi people demonstrated they were averse to the intervention Michelle Bachman and others started to sputter: Dang Iraqis they need to pay for the fact that we helped invade their country! It appears that with the passage of time, the Afghan war narrative has also now shifted. Its more common for even the most venomous neocon to afford the Taliban some semblance of legitamicy (heck even Soldat wont give em that!).. by noting their ethnic derivation.

So go along with me here on this intellectual exercise:
Nonetheless, to me the US is the standard because they have CENTCOM in Kabul and they have all kinds of way to communicate. The US soldier sitting in forward operating base Shinwar can very likely communicate with CENTCOM DC in the matter of minutes if need be. So now, if you get Bales in the batch of such a sophisticated and streamlined military I think that its unrealistic to think that a group of loosely affiliated groups a third world insurgency force could control their subordinates with greater efficacy.

I think that a practical example of this is that film Refsdahl made called "behind the masks" You have commander Dauran and you got the Cowboy Omar. Dauran is the ethical elderly leader that treats guests and captured well and frees them and Omar kidnaps Refsdahl for money when the group gets scatterd a few weeks later!

Its not at all an excuse, as I want you to understand that I am trying to give a detached analysis of how reality. Its like expecting the FARC guerillas to be somehow as in control of the game as the Western backed and armed and trained Columbian military. Its just a nonstarter expectation. If I dont have that expectation of Petreus controlling Bale, I simply dont have that expectation of Omar controlling his Cowboy.

Scimitar is pretty logical and might say: well there are folks that save 4 year olds and aren't Bale... so what do you say to that? Well, I say that I agree... but an army, contrary to the new military mantra, is not an Army of One. Its an army of hundreds of thousands. I am sure even in the Israeli army you have your disciplined soldiers and then you got your orthodox crazies who hit Palestinian women with gun butts.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

lol
i dont think you understand the Afghan psyche.
you look at things like an american,just because an organisation is labeled NGO doesnt mean afghans will risk talking to them and what makes you think those organistaions are what they claim they are.
remeber the ttp flogging th egirl was also created by supposed NGO.
tehrir square style,in a heavy militarised country involving over 40 countrries and bloodthisrty warlords?LOL
i think you clearly are clueless.

Afghans also generate money from othe businesses,dont you understand that part?do you think all the money is handed over by foreigners.
matter of fact foreigners are there to earn tons dollars from Afghan war.

in the link you gave me it says they attack a military check point and in that report osama and adam gadhan are put as some sort of heroes?

are you serious?

yes but who's the real threat if that's the case? That means the Taliban do as much intimidation, hence discrediting the Taliban either way.

[randolph85]

As passive observers, I think you and I could say that it could also show a disconnect that is inherent to assymetric warfare. That disconnect is that there appears to be little in the way of a reasonable CENTCOM of sorts that bind the disparate groups. What binds them is that their ideological views are a little closer to eachothers than NATOs and that they have a series of common ideological enemies.

Lets say we set up a standard. You've probably noted that I avoid commenting on the US troop atrocities threads. I mean I just think its ludricous for Afghan emigres who support a NATO presence to not expect that in war, things like the Bale incident are going to happen. When you introduce an army into another country you enter with the working assumption that there are going to be casualties thare unwanted and unwarranted. From the US vantage point I can see their disdain because it affects the narrative of the moral imperitive and the morale of the armed forces. If you recall when I had a few less gray hairs about a decade ago, the moral imperitive was twofold: protect America and help the Afghan people. In Iraq was much the same. As the Iraqi people demonstrated they were averse to the intervention Michelle Bachman and others started to sputter: Dang Iraqis they need to pay for the fact that we helped invade their country! It appears that with the passage of time, the Afghan war narrative has also now shifted. Its more common for even the most venomous neocon to afford the Taliban some semblance of legitamicy (heck even Soldat wont give em that!).. by noting their ethnic derivation.

So go along with me here on this intellectual exercise:
Nonetheless, to me the US is the standard because they have CENTCOM in Kabul and they have all kinds of way to communicate. The US soldier sitting in forward operating base Shinwar can very likely communicate with CENTCOM DC in the matter of minutes if need be. So now, if you get Bales in the batch of such a sophisticated and streamlined military I think that its unrealistic to think that a group of loosely affiliated groups a third world insurgency force could control their subordinates with greater efficacy.

I think that a practical example of this is that film Refsdahl made called "behind the masks" You have commander Dauran and you got the Cowboy Omar. Dauran is the ethical elderly leader that treats guests and captured well and frees them and Omar kidnaps Refsdahl for money when the group gets scatterd a few weeks later!

Its not at all an excuse, as I want you to understand that I am trying to give a detached analysis of how reality. Its like expecting the FARC guerillas to be somehow as in control of the game as the Western backed and armed and trained Columbian military. Its just a nonstarter expectation. If I dont have that expectation of Petreus controlling Bale, I simply dont have that expectation of Omar controlling his Cowboy.

Scimitar is pretty logical and might say: well there are folks that save 4 year olds and aren't Bale... so what do you say to that? Well, I say that I agree... but an army, contrary to the new military mantra, is not an Army of One. Its an army of hundreds of thousands. I am sure even in the Israeli army you have your disciplined soldiers and then you got your orthodox crazies who hit Palestinian women with gun butts.

the difference is that when someone like bale is arrested for his crimes, americans don't deny he did it, they may put up some bogus ptsd defense but they won't deny it nor will the government. when a talib blows up civilians, their supporters won't even bother making excuses because they will simply deny it. the ttp will take responsibility while the afghan taliban remain silent. this is all fine and good if the taliban didn't fight for islam and its leader didn't call himself the leader of all muslims, all while the ttp refers to omar as their amir. then we have a problem and people have every right to scrutinize, question, and discredit the movement. i don't want to compare the vietcong to the taliban because one was a communist movement that slaughtered thousands of innocents and really had no appologies about it while the other is supposedly the movement of the leader of all muslims where they can be put under the islamic lense and scrutinized for their breach of shariah.

also, the talib supporters here don't do the movement any favors by disregarding reality.

[randolph85]

lol
i dont think you understand the Afghan psyche.
you look at things like an american,just because an organisation is labeled NGO doesnt mean afghans will risk talking to them and what makes you think those organistaions are what they claim they are.
remeber the ttp flogging th egirl was also created by supposed NGO.
tehrir square style,in a heavy militarised country involving over 40 countrries and bloodthisrty warlords?LOL
i think you clearly are clueless.

Afghans also generate money from othe businesses,dont you understand that part?do you think all the money is handed over by foreigners.
matter of fact foreigners are there to earn tons dollars from Afghan war.

in the link you gave me it says they attack a military check point and in that report osama and adam gadhan are put as some sort of heroes?

are you serious?

you are changing gears here. first you are saying that afghans are scared to claim support for the taliban to the surveyors because of night raids, now you are saying afghans wouldn't risk talking to them at all. so which one is it? obviously in these anon surveys, afghans have no problem saying the support negotiations with the taliban.


foreigners are making back the money that the western governments put in there. this is why contractors are charging 20,000 dollars for toilet seats that comes directly from the US government. what does afghanistan produce or export? the afghan budget is almost non existent and mainly made up of tax collection and some telecoms. the bulk of the governments budget that goes to paying its employees comes from the west. what afghanistan makes for itself is a drop in a bucket compared to what its on welfare for.

again you are making no sense. so now you have no problem with the mullahs getting paid by the puppet government as long as its not western money? WHAT?? lol


and yes, the article says 5 security forces were killed while the rest were civilians.

[Al Hanif]

the difference is that when someone like bale is arrested for his crimes, americans don't deny he did it, they may put up some bogus ptsd defense but they won't deny it nor will the government.

man, I didn't even read what you were discussing but this catched my attention

I suggest you to read this thread :

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=28156

and particulary the things in bold type

Here is a comment to this article :

It’s interesting to see you claim that it could not have been a single soldier, based on practical/logistical considerations. There is more than one witness who speaks of a group of soldiers having done this, but I see that almost all headlines stick to the pentagon scripting, claiming that it was just one person.

and here is what the author of the article, who is a Vietnam Veteran, answers to this :

Try leaving a US “front line” operational base after midnight, getting the gate unlocked without 4 in a vehcle and authorization.
SOP
No lone riders, not possible, no way, not under any conditions.
Walked? Through the wire? Then were did he get the fuel can for the fire?

So, the testimonies of the civilians in the article are confirmed by this Vet's analysis : it was definitely not a single soldier who did this but a group of at least 20 soldiers.

You, Sir, are extremely delusional if you think that Americans don't lie and don't hide what they do.

You accuse people here of idealizing Talibans, but you are just doing the same thing.

[randolph85]

i am talking about major incidents, you dolt. americans kill all across the country as do the taliban but major bombings and shootings like this are high profile incidents. the americans have pr where they lie and say they are sorry, cover up the story and put someone on trial where they will probably go free or at least acknowledge it if they have to. the taliban on the other hand don't even acknowledge their crimes let alone say sorry or even put on a show trial for public consumption but they will hit someone for not having a long enough beard for the love of god.

one entity is a western imperialistic beast that has blood on its hands from the pacific to the atlantic, we don't expect them to care about afghan lives. the other is a movement that says its fighting for islam and afghanistan and its leader goes by the title of amir momineen which we expect to care about afghan lives. both don't, one i will scrutinize more than the other for that.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

the difference is that when someone like bale is arrested for his crimes, americans don't deny he did it, they may put up some bogus ptsd defense but they won't deny it nor will the government. when a talib blows up civilians, their supporters won't even bother making excuses because they will simply deny it. the ttp will take responsibility while the afghan taliban remain silent. this is all fine and good if the taliban didn't fight for islam and its leader didn't call himself the leader of all muslims, all while the ttp refers to omar as their amir. then we have a problem and people have every right to scrutinize, question, and discredit the movement. i don't want to compare the vietcong to the taliban because one was a communist movement that slaughtered thousands of innocents and really had no appologies about it while the other is supposedly the movement of the leader of all muslims where they can be put under the islamic lense and scrutinized for their breach of shariah.

also, the talib supporters here don't do the movement any favors by disregarding reality.

Point 1 I would say that the Medina precedent probably means that we should look beneath the top layer of the onion before saying that NATO forces point out the errors of their own. I think that NATO is being forced to fight with one arm behind its back because of this sort of civilizing moral imperitive that it has to sell the people of the respective nations. The Americans dont appear to be buying into it anymore. Second, how many of the soldiers end up being punished?

Point 2 I agree with your commentary on how shariah is observed in the region. For instance, in surah 4 of the Quran there is great detail paid to how an accidental death is to be handled by absolution of freeing a slave and/or paying the family money. Ironically, one might even say that the Americans paying funds to the Panjwai families was more in line with shariah (though the killer is not a Muslim).

However, I dont think its some sort of evil hypocrasy on the part of these cultural groups scattered across the Muslim world with respect to their jumping on the shariah bandwagon. In fact, I think that the galvanizing power of Islam, similar to its galvanizing effect in the Iranian Revolution, is the outcome that these groups are attempting to harness. Its like patriotism here in the US. Ron Paul is probably the best definition of a real American patriot, or say someone like Mike Scheuer. Yet the patriotism concept is something that the Republican party utilizes with great finesse to mobilize people for armed conflict.

What I mean is that I think you are expecting Umar Bin Al Khattab, but you forget that Mullah Omar is not him... nor is it realistically something that anyone expects. Omar Bin Al Khattab was a literate individual who was probably one of the most accomplished leaders and consolidators of all time. His contribution to the economics, consolidation, and growth of the nascent empire is something that someone with Omars profile is unlikely to reach to. Look at even Ahmad Shah Abdali, another literate and wordly Pashtun. If he was the Pashtun par excellance, with historians and economists in his empire and held a mawlawi court... yet still he did things like the raid on the Sikh Golden temple... why hold Omar to the Khattab standard?

For that matter, if OBL had a hard time controlling cowboy Hakimullah Mehsud, with probably more resources per those documents you linked to, with the former having even greater prestige amongst these groups... how do you think that Mullah Omar could hold a court together to say, put that subcommander Omar under Dauran on trial?

Lets actually walk through that practical example. I have no idea how the system over there works, but communications are heavily monitored by the NATO powers. So how do they communicate? How do the various crimes of all the vegabonds get investigated by the central shura? Is it that they wait for some event to happen and then Omar sends out a detective team to catch the culprit? If the culprit is in another group affiliated outside of the Kandahar Taliban, does Omar smack down the affiliate leader?

By that same token, how does Petreus prevent a Bale? Does Petreus put sensors onto each and every soldier and monitor their movements? What about video cameras attached to their skin? Its impossible.

The issue though, is that Bale never had to be there in the first place. Omar had really no choice over where he was born.

Point 3: Back to the surveys.

I think the reason I posted the Vietnam survey was not to show a moral comparison between the two groups but rather to illustrate how when a survey is done by an invading power affiliate (even if its a reasonably independent civilian organization) the outcomes measures can be deceptive. The discussion in that old RAND paper attempts to paint this picture of a populace out of charm and out of love with the Vietcong. Contrary to what you said, the Vietcong's communist ideologies werent based on murder... but rather elevating the peasant class to which it appealed for support and manpower. The Vietcong did not take joy in the murder of its people either. The prior reference showed how it turned its gaze to the RP/RF military units comprised of civilians that joined militias to counter the Vietcong. With that in mind the paragraph I sent you is there to show you that CAMP NGO, Time, NY TImes and even Al Jazeera can release just about any information they want about who supports who and its plagued by the same confounders that the RAND document is plagued with. Saigon would never have fallen if a proportional number of people did not provide the Cong with some protection.

Finally, then, what do I trust in terms of survey? Well, I think that the only thing we can trust is a survey released by an organization that reflects poorly on it. So if the Taliban release a statement of contrition or discuss setbacks, its probably greater evidence of loss of love from the locals than any survey no matter what the power and sample size.

To this end, why dismiss for instance, this US military driven survey in some of the deep Pashtun regions:

"Last month, Army Colonel Randy George completed a year-long tour leading the nearly 5800 soldiers of Task Force Mountain Warrior in some of Afghanistan’s most violent and vexing areas: Nangarhar, Nuristan, Kunar, and Laghman provinces, a mountainous part of the country home to about 3.7 million people, 33 tribes and sub-tribes, and over 300 kilometers’ worth of porous border with tribal Pakistan. After a yearlong effort to learn how the locals perceived the obstacles to their future, George prepared some briefing slides attempting to distill popular local sentiments. (He did not make any broader judgment about any other areas of Afghanistan.) Danger Room was recently able to review some of those slides and take notes on their contents, although we weren’t permitted to take them or reproduce them. George titled of those slides “How Locals Ranked The Enemies To Progress.” Through the locals’ eyes, the slide reported four big challenges. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban rank dead last. A “Corrupt and Ineffective Government” is number one."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...ior-to-karzai/

I am more apt to trust this survey because its released by the US Military itself and provides evidence against its best efforts to display a competent honest governance. It would be unlikely for the US to collect data in a way to hurt itself, therefore I think its more reliable and less plagued with confounders. Its also based on discussions with US affiliates and tribal members who may have felt comfortable enough to discuss issues with the young colonel. If tribal leader x of the shinwari tribe is keeping its members back from supporting the insurgency and getting support and he tells the colonel these views, its probably a bit more honest than knocking on a door in Deh Rawood and saying: Hey guy do you support X,Y, or Z?

[Afghanistan2010]

who are "all the muslims"?

there is a difference between supporting resistance and supporting the actual movement. i take it you supported the jihad in the 80s but did that also mean you supported massoud personally?

the taliban are associated with people who blow up masjids, funerals, markets, and shias in pakistan, there is no tip toeing around that fact. so attributing some islamic moral high ground to the taliban is laughable. not only have they not taken any action against their allies, they haven't even publicly condemned it.

when their supporters are living in a dream world where they think every muslim supports the taliban, that makes you and others like you seem completely delusional. and in case you didn't know, pretty much every armed group that pretends to use islam as its ideology in afghanistan has disobeyed allah and his messenger and the "outcry" is the carnage of the last 30 years.

I indeed liked the uprising in the 80s against the Russians and be it Massud and his men,but after researches that some of the groups work for certain purpose which are far away from that which are of a muslim,i did not looked at them as heroes or freedom fighters.

Everything became clear after the withdrawl of the soviet troops,who is fighting for what and history has witnessed that leaders like Jalaludin Haqqani,Movlavi Khalis and some other people,did really fought for the freedom of the afghan nation from the soviet terrorists,but others here to mention Hekmatyar,Massud,Sayaf,Ismail Khan,Rabbani and others struggled for power,wealth.


The Islamic emirate of Afghanistan has never directly targeted any mosques,shrines,markets or other populated areas.

There were some attacks by the TTP against sufis,but the islamic emirate of afghanistan has distanced from these doings.

But for attacks inside pakistan,there are no clear pictures,its pretty much gray.

I also agree that there were attacks inside mosques targeting certain security members,tribal leaders,government members and others,also in Afghanistan,but these attacks were claimed by the islamic emirate or TTP and the initial target was not the mosque but those elements,who were targeted.


Shia inside Pakistan were targeted for other reasons,not because they are shia.
Shias of Kurrama are oppressing and fighting local tribes with the help of the Pakistani army,i don't see there anything that violate the rules of engagement,if two armies fight,this is called war.

Its not true,the islamic emirate has condemned in numeros statements the actions of TTP and also sent local trainers,warned and threatend the TTP with war,if the attacks continue targeting civilians or populated areas,that's one reason for the decline of the attacks inside pakistan.





beside this : I do not support any of these acts,nor groups.

[Mujib]

Sufi of Afghanistan - YouTube

Masha'Allah! This is from a 1974 French documentary by Arnaud Desjardins. It features some of the great scholars and saintly men of Afghanistan. The shaykh leading the dhikr in that clip is none other than the great Mawlawi Abdur-Rab (Adrab) Akhundzada (rahimahullah).

Sufism is the heart of Afghanistan.

The entire documentary is here:

[Afghanistan2010]

Thanks for sharing this documentary...

[KhyberKhan]

The next level up has began...

Even though these shaheeds (inshallah) were fighting to destroy shirk, the ignorant mystics began using them for tawassul (intercession) after their death...typical trait of sufis and what has gone on with Shiekh Abdul Qadir and other noble men.

Ask yourself why so many nations were destroyed by Allah before the Ummah Of Muhammed (PBUH) ?

Secondly it goes to show that when the Sharia is dismantled and removed, how easily the people fall into ignorance and shirk.

.................................................. .................................................. ..............
At Kandahar's Arab cemetery, victims of the US "war on terror" are revered by many as shaheed (martyrs) and their graves are believed to possess miraculous powers.

Each day, hundreds of sick people visit the graves of more than 70 Arab and other foreign fighters and their family members who were killed in US bombing in the southern Afghan city in late 2001.



Soon after their burial, a cult developed around them and the graves became centres of pilgrimage for many in the area.



People started seeing them as miracle workers, healers and intercessors for others before God.



Six years after US-led troops ousted the Taleban, devotion to these "foreign guests" is still alive.



"Most of the visitors are sick people seeking blessings from the dead while others come hoping their social or financial problems will end," says Sangeena, a woman in her 50s who lives nearby and looks after the graves.



For the past several years, Sangeena has come to the cemetery every day. "They are martyrs and it is my duty to serve them."



Among the dead are Arab women and children.



Many believe that these foreigners were "innocent" people who "died for Islam" when the US and others sent troops to Afghanistan after the attacks of 11 September, 2001.



For many, these graves are holy, and touching them will cure illnesses.



In the first couple of years, thousands of people visited the cemetery daily.




Surprised by the response, local authorities sent armed policemen to discourage people from visiting.



But the cemetery's fame has reached many remote areas of Afghanistan and even the border areas of neighbouring Pakistan.


"People get cured here, that is why they come to the cemetery," says Samad, one young visitor.



Many people talk about miracles that have happened in the cemetery.



Some say many sick people who had lost all hope of recovery were miraculously cured within moments of their first visit.



"Several paralysed people have left the cemetery walking on their own two feet," says Sangeena.



The "cure" is simple - each visitor takes a pinch of salt from one of the many small bowls and eats it. It is believed that the salt has a special connection with the dead and will cure any illness.



The graves of Arab fighters who helped sweep the Taleban to power in the 1990s are part of the main cemetery at the edge of the city.



They are clearly marked and neatly built with white stones covering them and green flags fluttering on bamboo poles. In one mass grave, about 20 bodies have been buried together.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7193579.stm

[RevolutionThroughReason]

..not everything is "shirk" just because some lunatic from the Gulf says so.

Most Pashtuns value Sufism; if you don't like it, go to Saudi Arabia.