Sufi of Kandahar, Afghanistan

[BarakzaiAbdali]

are you saying we will become a developed country if we worry about beard length and whether we can beat women for letting their hair show?

please take this Saudi rubbish and keep it in Saudi Arabia.

Hi Scimitar, salaam.

As you note, its really not a big deal. I was reading Bukhari the other day and one of the sahabba noted that the people used to have a time post prayer that involved reciting zikr. The latter appeard to be a spiritual measure. These folks dont appear to be committing shirk in the sense of associating a godhead with The God (i.e. Al-Lah).

In every codified law system on earth there appears to be strict interpretationalists and loose interpretationalists. Not to demean or compare heavenly law with earthly law, but you have your Hamiltons and you have your Jeffersons is what I am trying to say.

In this vein, I wouldnt consider myself in line with what the world has labeled wahabist doctrine in parlance. However, I do think that if we approach Islam as scientists and say that there are two primary sources for sunnis: the Quran and the hadith dissecting these sources reveals an interesting pattern. The Quran criticizes the Ahl Kitaab heavily for alterations to their religion and replacing revelation with their own fanciful views.

Islam at its root appears to seek practicality and eschews either complete asceticism or unfettered lack of responsibility.

The reason I also bring up the hadith literature is that in the least, it makes available the form of speech the Prophet utilized.

When I read on Mansur Hallaj who uttered "Anna Al Haq" either wittingly or unwittingly; there is sharp contrast to the way the Prophet spoke.

Just as the Quran chastises folks that chase the meanings of the mystical letters (i.e. it urges them away from the Kabbalah like practice of some Jews who derive law from interpretation of mystic letters) and it demands a delineation of mystic verses and law giving verses; the Prophet's speech and behavior appear to accord to this strict monotheism.

If you want to skip all of the above, what I am trying to point out is that the primary source evidence appears to never have the Prophet say anything near "Anna al Haq" or utilize confusing speech that claims some sort of sense of the divine that borders on pantheism. The Quran and the hadith make it a point to avoid falling into the same errors as the Ahl Kitaab that would allow a chance to elevate what is human beyond respectable borders that God permits.

The closest we see to this is one reading of Ubay ibn Kaab in which an ayaah reads: wa huwa ab lahum (and he (the prophet) is a father to them). The Uthmanic recension does not contain this reference per the companion consensus. In the hadith realm the closest we come is when the Prophet rebukes someone from cursing time and notes some aspect of the divine in it.

This is really my issue with the MODERN definition of sufism. How can one claim any textual basis for "reaching or sensing the divine" or uttering "I am the truth" when the Prophet himself, nor his companions ever utilized this sort of language that has a duality to it?

[randolph85]

quit lying bro
why havent the Islamic scholars of Afghanistan condemen taliban and called for jihad against them?

it is becoming abroken record,you guys create even more lies when the present lies are refuted.

in your previous comment you made some big claims for which you dont have any proof.Now you made more claims without proof.

my previous comment that the ttp bombs funerals, masjids, and markets that they take responsibility for?

you can't be this dumb. you realize that there is an ulema council in afghanistan with thousands of mullahs on a government salary? and do you know what happens when a cleric publicly comes out against the taliban? he is shot dead.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

http://asiafoundation.org/resources/pdfs/TAF2011AGSurvey.pdf

This study is crucial



sure looks like most Afghans don't support the Taliban to me.

[randolph85]

in other words you are assuming.
thats like the guy claiming there are thousands of atheist pashutns but they they dont want to come out of closet because of fear.

its funny how you believe anything which serves satisfies you but dont want to hear the fact that dont satisfy you.

there are tons of people in the government who speak against the taliban but they still are alive and well,the ulama council do not issue fatwa against them because that would be their declaration of selling the religion.

except the fact that no pashtun comes out as atheist in afghanistan because it would ruin his life. whereas there have been several anti talib clerics that have been murdered in the country.

tons of people in the government as in the ones who have security around the clock? thats like saying well karzai and his cabinet members are alive so its not like the taliban would want to murder them.

so the council doesn't issue fatwas but they take american money for payment of their government issued salaries?

this is like debating with a rock. i can show you surveys of afghans that say most don't support the taliban but you will deny the authenticity. i can show you countless accounts of the ttp taking responsibility for bombing funerals, masjids and markets but of course you won't believe that either. you live in a fantasy world where you are afraid to be wrong so you say to hell with reality.

[KhyberKhan]

let's take the Saudi hand out of your backside, and be an Afghan for once will ya?

sure thing, baldilocks.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

sure thing, baldilocks.

at least I am not a Saudi lackey

[KhyberKhan]

yes, you got me, kojak.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

WTH is this bro

research follow the link above

[RevolutionThroughReason]

yes, you got me, kojak.

thanks Osama Bin Hide'n's fifth wife

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I said this before with the CAMP surveys when the whole discussion of Farhat Taj Andersons work came up: I think its ludicrous to assume that a white guy/brown guy being funded by white guy? knocking on some guys door with a survey in FATA or southern Afghanistan or even rural Yemen for that matter, is going to result in any of those people openly saying: Yep I support the group of people that the world's strongest military is out to kill. There are other metrics. In fact we might say Mr. Bale's rampage a month ago shows that the US troops dont agree with the results of these surveys and view the fighters that recede into the shadows as having village based support. This claim is trumpeted across many NATO regiments besides just that of the US. You could knock on Mullah Omar's cousin's door in Kandahar province and say: so here's a cup of tea... lets talk about who how you feel about parties X,Y,Z. Do you think his cousin is going to say: Yep I believe in the resistence and risk his house getting night raided or worse? The Abottabad vaccine campaign that caught UBL is already causing some consternation about the role of NGOs and whether they are properly termed that at all. To expect a rural Afghan farmer to simply check off the right box is sort of like blind faith. The Afghan elections and the controversy in Helmand province regarding ballott boxes proves this by anecdote. Thats not to say that the rural farmer supports the black turbaned ones... they may simply want whatever makes their lives the most stable, gets food on the table, and doesnt allow anyone to mess with their way of life. I think rural groups everywhere are much more practical and dont have time to think ideological because they are busy trying to survive.

Also there is more nuance to some of these surveys, for instance:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...h-taliban-poll

[randolph85]

i didnt deny ttp target A mosque and A funeral. market? show me the evidence where they claimed responsibility for a market bombing ,seems like emotional blackmail to me.

i wasnt talking about pashtun atheists in Afghanistan but in briton.
you talk about surverys,public opinion?
well actually no Afghan will dare to speak his mind knowing a nightraid will follow him favouring taliban,dont be ridiculous.those surveys polls etc are false just like elections under wartime,now dont tell me elections were fair and balanced.
tons of people in the government with/without security.
you wan to say that Afghans are scared thats why they arent against taliban?the fact is Afghans protect them and feed them.If Afghans wanted they could route them out in matter of months.

who says they take american money?you want to say all the money in AFG is American money?why dont they dont kill them for taking amercan money?

im not rock but im sure skiptical of your sources and what you claim.
there is more.......

hey chief, just for you. from yesterday.

http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bombing-pakistani-market-kills-20-080408178.html

Pakistani Taliban spokesman Ahsanullah Ahsan claimed responsibility for the bombing in a telephone call to The Associated Press.
"This is revenge for killing our people," said Ahsan.



and how do you think the afghan government pays salaries? from its own domestic budget? lol ok so lets say that its NOT american money which is so unlikely that its hilarious, the money is still coming from the american installed government. "black money" yall what what


if 30 million afghans supported the taliban, the taliban would of never of left kabul and kandahar, no one would work for the government or the foreigners, no one would of participated in elections, there would be massive tahrir square style protests every single day. this kind of stuff didn't even happen during the soviet occupation.


and now you are saying that in surveys people are afraid of night raids so they don't speak their minds? lol the hell. you realize these are done by non military entities and the participants are anonymous. this is not knocking on peoples doors and asking them questions, its gathering a pool of people and conducting surveys.

[randolph85]

sdf

Two senior al-Qaida leaders wrote a letter to Pakistani Taliban chief Hakimullah Mehsud in December 2010 criticizing the group for carrying out attacks in markets, mosques and other places that kill innocent Muslims. It accused the group of making "clear legal and religious mistakes that might result in a negative deviation from the set path of the jihadists' movement in Pakistan."
The group's actions also "are contrary to the objectives of jihad (holy war) and to the efforts exerted by us," said the letter, which was written by Abu Yahya al-Libi and a militant leader identified as Atiyatullah.
A bin Laden spokesman, the American Adam Gadahn, wrote a letter to an unknown recipient in January 2011 in which he listed a series of attacks on mosques and other sites in Pakistan that killed hundreds of civilians. The Pakistani Taliban either claimed responsibility for the attacks or were suspected of carrying them out.
Gadahn said these kinds of attacks "distort the picture of the pious and loyal mujahedeen."
"Now many regular people are looking at the mujahedeen as a group that does not hesitate to take people's money by falsehood, blowing up mosques, spilling the blood of dozens of people in the way to kill one or two who were labeled as enemies," said Gadahn.
One of the incidents highlighted by Gadahn was a 2010 suicide bombing of a mosque in the northwest town of Darra Adam Khel targeting anti-Taliban tribal elders that killed nearly 70 people. He expressed skepticism at attempts by the Pakistani Taliban to blame the attack on the private U.S. security firm formerly known as Blackwater.

same article

[BarakzaiAbdali]

hey chief, just for you. from yesterday.

http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bombin...080408178.html

Pakistani Taliban spokesman Ahsanullah Ahsan claimed responsibility for the bombing in a telephone call to The Associated Press.
"This is revenge for killing our people," said Ahsan.



and how do you think the afghan government pays salaries? from its own domestic budget? lol ok so lets say that its NOT american money which is so unlikely that its hilarious, the money is still coming from the american installed government. "black money" yall what what


if 30 million afghans supported the taliban, the taliban would of never of left kabul and kandahar, no one would work for the government or the foreigners, no one would of participated in elections, there would be massive tahrir square style protests every single day. this kind of stuff didn't even happen during the soviet occupation.


and now you are saying that in surveys people are afraid of night raids so they don't speak their minds? lol the hell. you realize these are done by non military entities and the participants are anonymous. this is not knocking on peoples doors and asking them questions, its gathering a pool of people and conducting surveys.

Randolph, question, I thought this was at a Pakistani check post and the army officers were targets. Is that not the case?

Also regarding who works and doesnt work for the government, the same phenomena was seen in Dheim's South Vietnam... that doesnt really alter the moral imperitive that some may identify with. Also note that the confounder here is some of these troops and interpretators end up serving the other side as well (i.e. sleeper agents).

Also, I tend to disagree regarding the veracity of the surveys for the reasons I said. I am NOT alleging that there is a secret 99% support base for the Taliban. But I think that Peter Bergen and others have raised legitimate points of concern about interpreting data like this as a case closed on NATO versus Taliban.

Remember also that a villager in Afghanistan who even is a landed person has a few practical things to consider. His village prestige, his way of life, and his independence. If NATO stays inside Kabul and leaves that landed person alone.. or walks through the village but doesnt do much else that person probably wants to maintain the status quo and already has a village lashgaar to deal with force by arms issues. If the Taliban bring the war to his door step he doesnt need to think ideologically about things... he just wants the war gone from his doorstep. As I noted about 100 times here that is generally why Kawun Kakar noted that the rural lifestyle did not change much under the Taliban. The Taliban itself understood that it couldnt exert too much pressure on the Pashtun villages. So the survey is marred in that sort of controversy. If the Taliban could bring $100 billion dollars of investment vs NATO trying to enforce certain restrictive elements they would then feel differently as well.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

same article

Thanks, I saw this and am glad you posted it because it raises a few more questions.

1. The assertion by a few here is that there is an evil supernexus that goes like this:
Washington DC ---order barks---> AQ ----order barks---> Taliban ----> Things get messed up ----> Washington uses as pretext to stay

So these documents appear to counter this ideology that appears to have some traction here at PF (i.e. its non evidence based - see Havi Sultans recent write up).

2. It shows that GOE's original point a few months ago about multiple groups being active without a control appartus is a valid one. This also means that Omar himself probably cannot exert more than nominal control over the Haqqani Network.

[KhyberKhan]

thanks Osama Bin Hide'n's fifth wife

dont mention it, cone-head.