Interesting dicussions on destruction of Makkah

[ScimitarXEdge]

Al Hanif and the Saudis contribute to the harm of innocent civilians; killing them would lessen their harm.

[Karachi]

HAAAA!!!!


HYPOCRITE!!!


LOL


See here folks?!


This man is anti Taliban on the premise that: Taliban kill Muslims.


Here he is advocating for the killing of other muslims!


I ask....on what rational does he justify the killing of Saudis or whabbis and looks forward to the murder of Al Hanif?

What is the difference between him and the one he hates when he is advocating for the same actions and has the same mentality?

This is a severe case of projection - he hates the taliban because he sees himself in them but can't accept that aspect of himself, so he projects his hatred towards them instead of himself.

FAIL!!!!

While murdering individuals is wrong, i am not advocating that, however saudis are the biggest evil that exist's today in the muslim world. I feel sometimes they are an enemy within Islam, trying to destroy Islam and muslims from inside, and they have indeed succeeded in doing this, even their imams/scholars have sold their souls to the Royal family. I think any muslim who defends the royal family is part of the evil

[sunni]

Sunni:

I did not support any Sultan, in fact they were to blame for the mess we are in today (American influence).

I don't condemn Wahhab, nor do I prefer Hashemite to him or the other way around. I have only said that I oppose the Al-Saud apostates and if I lived 100 years ago I would support the Ummah, the Sharif and the Ikhwan warriors. Nothing else than that.

Apart from that Arab land should not be subject to western imperilism and should be based on Shariah and ruled by truth Muslims.

The Hashemites did not support worship it was the people and the Ottomans did nothing to change that when they ruled. Sharifs father wanted to remove this, but got warning from Sultan.

The Hashemite were the most conservatice together with Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab.

The PROBLEM was that the Al-Saud family claimed to be supporters of al-Wahhab to gain power to later take control of Najd. Just look how they have ruled since? Not according to Al-Wahhab.So this argument is worth nothing, my brother.

Remember when the Muhammad ibn Ibrahm Al al-Shaykh (descendant of Al-Wahhab and Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia) issued a fatwa calling for the abdication of "king" Saud in 1964?

The problem was the Ottoman Empires military and religious faillures and failure of caring for the Arab World together with Western interference (colonialism) and the appearance of the Al-Saud.

All this together resultated in our dream of a Ummah was dead, but Insha'allah it will soon see the light again.

look bro you, yourself said The PROBLEM was that the Al-Saud family claimed to be supporters of al-Wahhab to gain power to later take control of Najd.
they did helped him to show and share his daw'a and thats what he wanted they were the best of all the bads. but you shouldnt forgot the good ones who have been killed like king faisel.
i dont care about it anymore. our umma was throw into the floor they all wanted thier pleasure nothing else. ashraf were doing the shirks and didnt accept abdul wahhab daw'a even the first one did accepeted it and when he died his brother become in his place and start the fight again and wouldnt let muslims go to hajj.
i dont care as long as the daw'a been showen and shared into all now alhmdolilah.

[AFG21]

@ Sado
Yes tell me about it, he like almost everthing like from stoning to cutting heads, but steal says taliban are bad and not islamic and that he is not a wahabist.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hi there is no more need to entertain your circular degenerate arguments full of insults name calling. Instead I will post some interesting quotes from sources.

"The rites and ceremonies connected with the Hajj and Umrah are exceedingly puerile, and decidedly inconsistent with the spirit of Islam The idolatrous customs of the ancient Arabs, though sanctified by the teaching of the Qur’an and the example of' Muhammad, but poorly comport with the monotheistic teaching of the reformer of Makkah, and come far short of "confirming the former Scriptures." Its sanction by Muhammad is one of the darkest plots on his religion, and shows at the same time how far the politician of Madina differed from the preacher of Makkah. How his apologists fail to see the inconsistency of his conduct and teaching here, not only with the dignity of a prophet of God, but with the character of an honest man, is beyond our comprehension. The kissing of the Black Stone and the Yamani Pillar was so manifestly inconsistent with the doctrine of Islam, that naught but the example of the prophet and the implicit obedience of his followers secured its perpetuation. The fiery Omar, kissing the stone, said, "Verily I know that thou art a stone; thou dost no good or harm in the world, and if it was not that 1 saw the prophet kiss thee, I would not kiss thee." (Mishqat ul Masabih, Matthews, book 11. chapter 4, part 3)


At Mekka, Allah was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. The central shrine at Mekka was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage." (Meet the Arab, John Van Ess, 1943, p. 29.)


Religious objects, practices, and institutions. Sacred stones. A principal sacred object in Arabian religion was the stone, either a rock outcropping or a large boulder, often a rectangular or irregular black basaltic stone without representative sculptural detail. Such stones were thought to be the residences of a god-hence the term for them employed by Byzantine Christian writers in the 5th and 6th centuries: baetyl, from bet 'el, "house of the god." Of the numerous baetyls, the best known is the Black Stone of the Ka'bah at Mecca, which became the central shrine object of Islam. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1059, 1979)


"Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat ("the Goddess"), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah ("the Mighty"), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon. (No scientific investigation has ever been performed on the stone. In 930, the stone was removed and shattered by an Iraqi sect of Qarmatians, but the pieces were later returned. The pieces, sealed in pitch and held in place by silver wire, measure about 10 inches in diameter altogether and several feet high; they are venerated today in patched-together form.)" (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996)


It is established from aisha hadith that mohammad conformed to pagan arabic rituals because of the importance to his people. We established that this pagan black stone existed before Islam and was important to pagan Arabic people from the story where mohammad was asked to decide who would carry it. We established that Omar questioned this shirk and said he would never do it but since mohammad conformed to this to please the pagans he is doing it. The burden of proof is on now you to prove from none muslims source to show that this stone was placed by abraham hajj was practice by abraham or anything related to the ritual of hajj to him his sons. As muslim you claim this so prove it. As for the other corner stones even to celebrities they are not part of any religion so we know what they are this stone is special it was part of the pagan rituals now its part of muslim ritual. What is the reason to incorporate this pagan black stone in muslim faith if it is indeed just a corner stone which deserves to be kissed as well. Complete utter none sense.

Looool, look at your oral diarrhea Amu Darya wetback

The burden of proof? You established that you imposed readings and interpolated words into hadith, thats about it. A Hadith where Omar confirms that the early Muslims did not view the rock as diefied, in your pea brain, became confirmation of it being God. How stupid is your logic? A hadith where Muhammad said he wanted to build doors in and out of the kabaah, in your mind extended to say that he wanted to incorporate paganism. And then you quote me Mishqat???? Whats like quoting Pamela Geller dude. It means nothing. Even that quote affirmed that that Muhammad's followers were obsessed with obedience to him (read the last sentence)... so why would he even need to incorporate something to satisfy pagans who he had already won over???

You contradicated yourself with the two quotes and just dug yourself a giant intellectual grave.

You are comparing apples and oranges parsiwaan wetback. For instance, Christian belief in the resurrection and in the trinity might, anthropologically have pagan roots. Thats not the issue here... its your contention that Muhammad willingly incorporated paganism (knowingly) versus the the notion that the theology believes he merely reclaimed it as an Abrahamic practice.

You have yet to prove the first contention.

"splash" --- you hear that sound? Thats me throwing you back into river.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hi there is no more need to entertain your circular degenerate arguments full of insults name calling. Instead I will post some interesting quotes from sources.

"The rites and ceremonies connected with the Hajj and Umrah are exceedingly puerile, and decidedly inconsistent with the spirit of Islam The idolatrous customs of the ancient Arabs, though sanctified by the teaching of the Qur’an and the example of' Muhammad, but poorly comport with the monotheistic teaching of the reformer of Makkah, and come far short of "confirming the former Scriptures." Its sanction by Muhammad is one of the darkest plots on his religion, and shows at the same time how far the politician of Madina differed from the preacher of Makkah. How his apologists fail to see the inconsistency of his conduct and teaching here, not only with the dignity of a prophet of God, but with the character of an honest man, is beyond our comprehension. The kissing of the Black Stone and the Yamani Pillar was so manifestly inconsistent with the doctrine of Islam, that naught but the example of the prophet and the implicit obedience of his followers secured its perpetuation. The fiery Omar, kissing the stone, said, "Verily I know that thou art a stone; thou dost no good or harm in the world, and if it was not that 1 saw the prophet kiss thee, I would not kiss thee." (Mishqat ul Masabih, Matthews, book 11. chapter 4, part 3)


At Mekka, Allah was the chief of the gods and the special deity of the Quraish, the prophet’s tribe. Allah had three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus) most revered of all and pleased with human sacrifice; Manah, the goddess of destiny, and Al Lat, the goddess of vegetable life. Hubal and more than 300 others made up the pantheon. The central shrine at Mekka was the Kaaba, a cube like stone structure which still stands though many times rebuilt. Imbedded in one corner is the black stone, probably a meteorite, the kissing of which is now an essential part of the pilgrimage." (Meet the Arab, John Van Ess, 1943, p. 29.)


Religious objects, practices, and institutions. Sacred stones. A principal sacred object in Arabian religion was the stone, either a rock outcropping or a large boulder, often a rectangular or irregular black basaltic stone without representative sculptural detail. Such stones were thought to be the residences of a god-hence the term for them employed by Byzantine Christian writers in the 5th and 6th centuries: baetyl, from bet 'el, "house of the god." Of the numerous baetyls, the best known is the Black Stone of the Ka'bah at Mecca, which became the central shrine object of Islam. (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1059, 1979)


"Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat ("the Goddess"), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah ("the Mighty"), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon. (No scientific investigation has ever been performed on the stone. In 930, the stone was removed and shattered by an Iraqi sect of Qarmatians, but the pieces were later returned. The pieces, sealed in pitch and held in place by silver wire, measure about 10 inches in diameter altogether and several feet high; they are venerated today in patched-together form.)" (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996)


It is established from aisha hadith that mohammad conformed to pagan arabic rituals because of the importance to his people. We established that this pagan black stone existed before Islam and was important to pagan Arabic people from the story where mohammad was asked to decide who would carry it. We established that Omar questioned this shirk and said he would never do it but since mohammad conformed to this to please the pagans he is doing it. The burden of proof is on now you to prove from none muslims source to show that this stone was placed by abraham hajj was practice by abraham or anything related to the ritual of hajj to him his sons. As muslim you claim this so prove it. As for the other corner stones even to celebrities they are not part of any religion so we know what they are this stone is special it was part of the pagan rituals now its part of muslim ritual. What is the reason to incorporate this pagan black stone in muslim faith if it is indeed just a corner stone which deserves to be kissed as well. Complete utter none sense.

Loool, and your two quotes regarding the Byzantine view of the Meccan stone (how idiotic, who cares what the Byzantines said about it since they were in no way connected to it by the way) contradicts it representing cosmic forces versus Hubal versus a minor diety.

Regardless, the first page of this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=O69...page&q&f=false
Firestone's Journey in Holy Lands: The Evolution of the Abraham Ishmael Legends


Details that ALL Descriptions of preislamic worship practices in regard to Mecca have filtered through Islamic sources (ie. nothing contiguous to the era exists to truly inform archaeologists about what was going on except examining Muslim sources).

So what does that boil down to? It means that the Muslim commentators already commented on Pagan beliefs that were preIslamic, and theologically dismissed them as a preversion of Abraham and Ismael's original monotheism.

So the Islamic theological view is that the pagans added gods to the pantheon alongside the One God (i.e. Allah).

And you somehow are the first to discover that Islamic theology secretly views the black stone as a god. I think even Cook and Crone and every atheist in the world would laugh at your conclusion.

Tell me when you are ready for a life preserver so you dont drown on your swim back across the Amu Darya, wetback.

[Alchemist]

Al Hanif and the Saudis contribute to the harm of innocent civilians; killing them would lessen their harm.

Fallacy of Equivocation. Your favourite.

Al Hanif is not a civilian all of a sudden?

Oh ok.... well then..you are not a civilian either. So we should kill you because you are contributing harm by spreading shirk and promoting non Islamic values as being islamic. So maybe we should kill you ...and the Qadianis ...and some other heretics too. Oh wait... Am I now a Whabbi Taliban? or Are you?

I am sorry but your brain is just rotten. It doesn't function anymore.

You have the ability to hold two contradictory notions as part of your core beliefs. You are exercising "DoubleThink"...a symptom of BRAINWASHING.

While murdering individuals is wrong, i am not advocating that, however saudis are the biggest evil that exist's today in the muslim world. I feel sometimes they are an enemy within Islam, trying to destroy Islam and muslims from inside, and they have indeed succeeded in doing this, even their imams/scholars have sold their souls to the Royal family. I think any muslim who defends the royal family is part of the evil

Oh just saudis? How about the genocidal thugs in Afghanistan? Shouldn't we hang them before we even get to Saudi? Or How about the ISI which works as an extension of the CIA and MI6 and MI5? Or how about the Royals of Kuwait, Qatar and Dubai ...how are they any different? Let's kill them all!


See...this is where you guys show your true colours.

You are brainwashed to the point where you don't even realize what you are saying anymore. You are lost in the matrix. LOL.


This is exactly the type of rational that taliban use to kill ANA soldiers and Pakistani Soldiers...and Politicians and government workers. They are supporting not hypocritical muslims (Munaiqs) ...but Kafirs!


You clowns don't have any qualm with the taliban on religious grounds ... this is now obvious. Because in accordance to the laws of Islam, you cannot Kill a Muslim who practices the Letter of Islam to the T....Forget all that. You are just basing your allegations on whims!

What are the crimes of the Saudi Royals? They allowed for the creation of Israel? So did Pakistan accept the existence of Israel and many other "Islamic Countries". Because they cooperate with the Islam Bashing NATO? So do all the other "Islamic Nations". Because they are rich? That is a crime now? What do you have against them...that makes them uniquely special then all the rest of the **** that has taken over the planet?

[Karachi]

^ I clearly said no to killing anyone, check my last post. However something should be done about them. The reason i am saying (saudis) is because they have the most influence in the muslim world, they are the caretakers of the holy places that they are destroying. Of course other countries are evil too, I am not denying this, but saudi arabia's role is much larger in the muslim world then any country. They are evil, pure evil and corrupt, who spread their corruption through out their land and other muslim countries as well.

You sound like a person who totally supports the Royal family, so of course you will get angry if some one says some thing about them. It is so unfortunate that some religious people are their biggest supporters, they have the backing of the religious establishment there, thats why these guys are going no where. this is why I earlier said that the religious establishment there is the biggest problem, first that has to be gotten rid off

[Alchemist]

^ I clearly said no to killing anyone, check my last post. However something should be done about them. The reason i am saying (saudis) is because they have the most influence in the muslim world, they are the caretakers of the holy places that they are destroying. Of course other countries are evil too, I am not denying this, but saudi arabia's role is much larger in the muslim world then any country. They are evil, pure evil and corrupt, who spread their corruption through out their land and other muslim countries as well.

You sound like a person who totally supports the Royal family, so of course you will get angry if some one says some thing about them. It is so unfortunate that some religious people are their biggest supporters, they have the backing of the religious establishment there, thats why these guys are going no where. this is why I earlier said that the religious establishment there is the biggest problem, first that has to be gotten rid off

No, the saudis don't have "influence". The Americans do.

I don't think you know the history of Saudi America and how it came to be.

This country is what we call a "puppet regime". Now ...let's say you get slapped by a puppet...will you slap the puppet or the puppeteer?

SAUDIA ARABIA - AMERICA - Slave & Master (Full) - YouTube

[Karachi]

^ yes i know they are slaves of america, this is nothing new, But the religious establishment and the people there support the government/royals, this is the problem. The system there has corrupted the heart and minds of regular people, the amount of islam you see in most saudis is on the laughable level, its a mockery of the whole faith

[Alchemist]

Are you talking about the ministry of "vice and virtue"?

[Karachi]

Are you talking about the ministry of "vice and virtue"?

They are just one part of the establishment, i am talking about every body like thier imams, scholars, students, regular saudis etc...

[Alchemist]

They are just one part of the establishment, i am talking about every body like thier imams, scholars, students, regular saudis etc...

Oh so everyone in saudi arabia...that whole society is just guilty?
Why stop there...why not find the Turks guilty too? They are instigating war in Syria and oppressing Kurds...why not the rest of the gulf states? Why not Dubai the way they have prostitutes and slaves labouring for their hedonistic life styles? They are all part of the same "Establishment" ...what is the difference?

I think you just don't like saudis in particular because some saudi kid probably treated you like dirt...because they view pakistanis as less than humans ...I know how racist they are.

[al-arab]

Karachi:

Why do you STILL lable all Saudis as supporters of the Al-Saud family when this is FAR from the truth.

I am telling you this as a person who spent most of his living years in Hijaz (just turned 20) others being in Iraq and UAE.

You yourself lived in Riyadh which is situated in Najd, a province famous for their alliance to Al-Saud family.

You also still don't understand that Al-Saud's dictatorship is the most powerful in the Arab world as I told in the beginning of this debate. It is very diifcult (even impossible) to stand up against the Al-Saud family and those tendencies they support (wan't mention them here because that would just start a new debate with more name-calling).

But again, when talking about a problem one should not generalize. It is pointless, insulting and a stupid think to do.

Should I call all Pakistanis for puppets of the United States or bad Muslims because of their close ties to Western societies (Britain, the English language) and close cultural ties to Hindu India?

[Karachi]

Oh so everyone in saudi arabia...that whole society is just guilty?
Why stop there...why not find the Turks guilty too? They are instigating war in Syria and oppressing Kurds...why not the rest of the gulf states? Why not Dubai the way they have prostitutes and slaves labouring for their hedonistic life styles? They are all part of the same "Establishment" ...what is the difference?

I think you just don't like saudis in particular because some saudi kid probably treated you like dirt...because they view pakistanis as less than humans ...I know how racist they are.

ok fine fix others too, i am not denying it, but this thread is about saudi arabia if you haven't noticed, thats why i am focussing on saudis, because they are destroying holy places and turning them in to Las vegas