Interesting dicussions on destruction of Makkah

[Karachi]

Its from Al Jazeera, very fair point made:

Wahabi Destruction Of Makkah - YouTube

[Al Hanif]

I completely agree with what the dude with the beard said.

Can't wait until Talibans take over Saudi Arabia and blow up this ugly tower.

Until then, here's pure monotheists destroying an idol :

OPERATION BUDDHA TALIBAN - THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH - YouTube

[Karachi]

^ the destruction in makkah is backed by the hardcore religious people there, it is bin laden's (construction) family who is doing much of the destruction there, the same bin laden who probably ordered the destruction of Buddha statues, isn't that ironic?

[Al Hanif]

^ the destruction in makkah is backed by the hardcore religious people there, it is bin laden's (construction) family who is doing much of the destruction there, the same bin laden who probably ordered the destruction of Buddha statues, isn't that ironic?

Destuction of Buddha statues was made by Pakistani experts on exploisives under the supervision of Taliban. It has nothing to do with Al Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden.

Bin Laden family =/= Osama Bin Laden

Buddha statues are idols. They need to be destroyed.

Graves and other things destroyed by Saudis are not idols. They do not need to be destroyed.

[Karachi]

Destuction of Buddha statues was made by Pakistani experts .

DO you have proof of this? or are you as usual talking BS

[Al Hanif]

^Do you have an inferiority complex with Pakistanis too ?
LOL


I don't need proof to know that Talibans are not able to do it by their own.

All Talibans did was shooting to this statues with their AK's. It was Pakistani experts in explosives who blew it up.

[PakistaniAtheist]

Hi Taliban should blow up mecca also there is a huge black rock there that people kiss worship idolize which is forbidden in Islam. I know it is not part of Islam but people still do it just like those statues in Afghanistan people didnt worship but still was destroyed but rock in kabba is worshiped kissed licked idolize so lets hope Taliban blow up mecca kabba right al hanif.

[Al Hanif]

Hi Taliban should blow up mecca also there is a huge black rock there that people kiss worship idolize which is forbidden in Islam. I know it is not part of Islam but people still do it just like those statues in Afghanistan people didnt worship but still was destroyed but rock in kabba is worshiped kissed licked idolize so lets hope Taliban blow up mecca kabba right al hanif.

lol

if i kiss my son, does that mean I worship him ?

kissing something =/= worshipping it

We worship Allah SWT and only Him

The Black Stone's name is al-Ḥajar al-Aswad, it's not Allah

they are two different things, that's why they have two different names

this stone is a relic, it has nothing divine

Allah SWT created this stone as well as everything else in the universe

[PakistaniAtheist]

Hi you just showed how contradictory stupid religious people can be. If the stone is a relic that makes kabba a reliquary which means kabba is a shrine and having shrines in Islam is forbidden. A relic is a religious material when it is kissed licked it is being venerated it is being worshiped. The stone in kabba is an idol no matter what analogy you give it is worshiped by hajjis they think it has magic powers. Wahabis cant remove it even they know this fact because they have authentic islamic sources that prophet did it where omar is also quoted Omar knew this that it was being idolized worshiped. Historically there were 4 stones in Arabia that was worshiped only this black one is remaining because it was very important to pagan Arabs mohammad didnt remove it to please the locals. If mohammad didnt intend for it to be worshiped omar didnt intend for it to be worshiped yet it is still worshiped so now according to your islamic thinking it should be blown up just on that bases alone. People worship it no matter what the original intention was. In that case you must destroy it. Please go to school and learn something stop being educated by mickey mouse suicide training videos. Irony is people like you want to kill sufis when they give same explanation for their beliefs as you give to justify presence worship of black stone in shrine kabba.

Black Stone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[PakistaniAtheist]

Ibn Ishaq said, "The tribes of Quraysh collected stones to rebuild the House, each tribe collecting on their own. They started rebuilding it, until the rebuilding of the Ka`bah reached the point where the Black Stone was to be placed in its designated site. A dispute erupted between the various tribes of Quraysh, each seeking the honor of placing the Black Stone for their own tribe. The dispute almost led to violence between the leaders of Quraysh in the area of the Sacred House. Banu `Abd Ad-Dar and Banu `Adi bin Ka`b bin Lu'ay, gave their mutual pledge to fight until death. However, five or four days later, Abu Umayyah bin Al-Mughirah bin `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Makhzum, the oldest man from Quraysh then intervened at the right moment. Abu Umayyah suggested that Quraysh should appoint the first man to enter the House from its entrance to be a mediator between them. They agreed. The Messenger - Muhammad - was the first person to enter the House. When the various leaders of Quraysh realized who the first one was, they all proclaimed, `This is Al-Amin (the Honest one). We all accept him; This is Muhammad.' When the Prophet reached the area where the leaders were gathering and they informed him about their dispute, he asked them to bring a garment and place it on the ground. He placed the Black Stone on it. He then requested that each of the leaders of Quraysh hold the garment from one side and all participate in lifting the Black Stone, moving it to its designated area. Next, the Prophet carried the Black Stone by himself and placed it in its designated position and built around it. The Quraysh used to call the Messenger of Allah `Al-Amin' even before the revelation came to him."



The stone in kabba is a baetyl

BAETYLUS (Gr. /JatruXos, jSatri'Xioi'), a word of Semitic origin ( = bethel) denoting a sacred stone, which was supposed to be endowed with life. These fetish objects of worship were meteoric stones, which were dedicated to the gods or revered as symbols of the gods themselves (Pliny, Nat. Hist. Xvii. 9; Photius, Cod. 242).

baetyl - A meteorite or similar-looking rough stone thought to be of divine origin and worshipped as sacred.


baetyl in pagan religions represents sexual organs of power. This is why the pagans in Arabia used to do hajj naked and worshiped other such idols. No where in bible torah it is mention of any stone ever by monotheist god placing it. It is only part of Islam out of all the 3 Abrahammic religions because of relations and importance of it to pagan Arabic people of mohammad tribe. Pagan Arabic religions are related to Hindu religions where Hindus worshiped the penis of Shiva which is a very old God which is also a black stone. All baetyl objects which are meteorite represented sexual objects. Reason why Arabs used to do hajj also pagan practice before Islam. Muslims first pray towards Jeruslam but when jews rejected mohammad claim to their private jewish club he said pray towards mecca which is also a very famous incident with very lousy explanation from Muslims. They say god was testing people which is funny god should know already why test doesnt god know people hearts so why test. Here is more evidence for taqqiya french hypocrite.


picture worship of shiva linga







Picture of black stone worship kissing in kabba mecca according to you a relic which is religious material making kabba a shrine a reliquary since it hosts a relic like you said.










Muslims also believe it is the hand of god but you say it is not divine.



I hope Taliban one day blow it up.

[Karachi]

^ the kaaba has nothing to do with hinduism, Hinduism hardly left south asia, let alone going all the way to arabia

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Ibn Ishaq said, "The tribes of Quraysh collected stones to rebuild the House, each tribe collecting on their own. They started rebuilding it, until the rebuilding of the Ka`bah reached the point where the Black Stone was to be placed in its designated site. A dispute erupted between the various tribes of Quraysh, each seeking the honor of placing the Black Stone for their own tribe. The dispute almost led to violence between the leaders of Quraysh in the area of the Sacred House. Banu `Abd Ad-Dar and Banu `Adi bin Ka`b bin Lu'ay, gave their mutual pledge to fight until death. However, five or four days later, Abu Umayyah bin Al-Mughirah bin `Abdullah bin `Amr bin Makhzum, the oldest man from Quraysh then intervened at the right moment. Abu Umayyah suggested that Quraysh should appoint the first man to enter the House from its entrance to be a mediator between them. They agreed. The Messenger - Muhammad - was the first person to enter the House. When the various leaders of Quraysh realized who the first one was, they all proclaimed, `This is Al-Amin (the Honest one). We all accept him; This is Muhammad.' When the Prophet reached the area where the leaders were gathering and they informed him about their dispute, he asked them to bring a garment and place it on the ground. He placed the Black Stone on it. He then requested that each of the leaders of Quraysh hold the garment from one side and all participate in lifting the Black Stone, moving it to its designated area. Next, the Prophet carried the Black Stone by himself and placed it in its designated position and built around it. The Quraysh used to call the Messenger of Allah `Al-Amin' even before the revelation came to him."



The stone in kabba is a baetyl

BAETYLUS (Gr. /JatruXos, jSatri'Xioi'), a word of Semitic origin ( = bethel) denoting a sacred stone, which was supposed to be endowed with life. These fetish objects of worship were meteoric stones, which were dedicated to the gods or revered as symbols of the gods themselves (Pliny, Nat. Hist. Xvii. 9; Photius, Cod. 242).

baetyl - A meteorite or similar-looking rough stone thought to be of divine origin and worshipped as sacred.


baetyl in pagan religions represents sexual organs of power. This is why the pagans in Arabia used to do hajj naked and worshiped other such idols. No where in bible torah it is mention of any stone ever by monotheist god placing it. It is only part of Islam out of all the 3 Abrahammic religions because of relations and importance of it to pagan Arabic people of mohammad tribe. Pagan Arabic religions are related to Hindu religions where Hindus worshiped the penis of Shiva which is a very old God which is also a black stone. All baetyl objects which are meteorite represented sexual objects. Reason why Arabs used to do hajj also pagan practice before Islam. Muslims first pray towards Jeruslam but when jews rejected mohammad claim to their private jewish club he said pray towards mecca which is also a very famous incident with very lousy explanation from Muslims. They say god was testing people which is funny god should know already why test doesnt god know people hearts so why test. Here is more evidence for taqqiya french hypocrite.


picture worship of shiva linga







Picture of black stone worship kissing in kabba mecca according to you a relic which is religious material making kabba a shrine a reliquary since it hosts a relic like you said.










Muslims also believe it is the hand of god but you say it is not divine.



I hope Taliban one day blow it up.

Give me a break Albani, you're so full of sh-it.

In fact, The Caliph Omar's own words contradict you:

Al-Bukhari and AI-Tirmidhi related on the authority of Amir Ibn Rabia' who said, "I saw Omar Ibn Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone, and I heard him say, `I know well that you are simply a stone, and have no power to confer a benefit or to do harm. Had I not seen the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you."' (5, v. 2, p. 175). AI-Bukhari and Al-Tirmidhi said it was a good and sound Hadith.


In fact when it was stolen, it did no harm to the hajj rites and they went on as planned.

You also dont even get the hadith about the right hand of God. The pilgrims kiss the stone so as to confirm a pact and emulate the Prophet. Just as one bows in sajda to God, so too does one kiss the stone and swear fealty to God.

In fact the Kabaah itself is not viewed as anything special beyond a central point for the Muslims... its damage and the destruction of its treasure is prophesied in Bukhari.

[Soldat_Amir]

I am sure the Saudis have destroyed many Afghan cities through their Proxy Jihad and support for Militant factions. That's all I really have to say.

[PakistaniAtheist]

Hi please prove contradiction when I mentioned the same thing you quoted of omar. Omar realized how foolish it is to kiss a stone. He knew it was just a stone but since the prophet did it he was doing it even he realized it is a form of worship. Hadees of omar proves my point that it is a stone being venerated idolized that is what the action of kissing it represents and he only did it because mohammad did it otherwise it contradict his monotheistic belief. The fact that this stone existed in kabba before islam and it importance to pagan Arabic people is evidence that it was a pagan worship idol. Mohammad simply continued on the pagan tradition. Same thing with the hajj. Since you like to quote independent sources show me from none muslims sources that gives evidence that the kabba hajj and the stone were placed by abraham or his sons as later claimed by muslim historians to justify these pagan practices which are completed rejected by the bible torah scriptures. It is also ironic that a monotheistic god needs veneration of a stone object to acknowledge fealty to. The more you try to justify this the more you dig yourself a hole harder to get out of. This stone is worshiped by each every muslim that goes to hajj i know this from my own muslim family friends relatives who risk being crushed just to touch it since it is the hand of god holding magic powers just like magic zam zam water. This stone is a beatyl which were meteorites that were worshiped by various pagan people. Let says you are right that it is not intended to be worshiped but it still is therefore it should be destroyed removed just like no image should exist of mohammad because it can lead to worship. My point that taliban should blow it up stands no matter sorry you are wrong.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hi please prove contradiction when I mentioned the same thing you quoted of omar. Omar realized how foolish it is to kiss a stone. He knew it was just a stone but since the prophet did it he was doing it even he realized it is a form of worship. Hadees of omar proves my point that it is a stone being venerated idolized that is what the action of kissing it represents and he only did it because mohammad did it otherwise it contradict his monotheistic belief. The fact that this stone existed in kabba before islam and it importance to pagan Arabic people is evidence that it was a pagan worship idol. Mohammad simply continued on the pagan tradition. Same thing with the hajj. Since you like to quote independent sources show me from none muslims sources that gives evidence that the kabba hajj and the stone were placed by abraham or his sons as later claimed by muslim historians to justify these pagan practices which are completed rejected by the bible torah scriptures. It is also ironic that a monotheistic god needs veneration of a stone object to acknowledge fealty to. The more you try to justify this the more you dig yourself a hole harder to get out of. This stone is worshiped by each every muslim that goes to hajj i know this from my own muslim family friends relatives who risk being crushed just to touch it since it is the hand of god holding magic powers just like magic zam zam water. This stone is a beatyl which were meteorites that were worshiped by various pagan people. Let says you are right that it is not intended to be worshiped but it still is therefore it should be destroyed removed just like no image should exist of mohammad because it can lead to worship. My point that taliban should blow it up stands no matter sorry you are wrong.

You're a joke Albani,

and wrong.

Omar was known for being zealous. The hadith connotes nothing of worship. In fact, another Bukhari hadith noted that Omar was uncomfortable with his wife attending the masjid, but why would he not stop her? Because Muhammad (S) commanded the men to allow their wives to attend the masjids.

As noted, you actually dug yourself a hole in that you could not account for the fact that the absence of the stone meant little if anything and did not at all interrupt the hajj rituals.

Regarding independent references for the black stone:

Absolutely, read up on Zaid the Hanif, one of the precursors to the locality of Mecca prior to the Prophet's arrival. He adopted the concept monotheism and referred to the Kabah as Abraham's house. This history is in Tabari.

Secondly,
"The early semites used unusual stones to mark places of worship.. Jacob set up a pillar, and on it a stone on which he had rested his head during his dream"
source: Cyril Glasse, New Encyclopedia of Islam, p. 245. Rowman Altamira, 2001
http://books.google.com/books?id=D7tu12gt4JYC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=new+en cyclopedia+islam+stones+mark+places+worship&source =bl&ots=9n6SriII9E&sig=OU6-GlrfHQ0mTZN6aw_2wOI6bhc&hl=en&ei=E4e7TsCsPInVgQfpt 8DBBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0 CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


Even anthropologically you dig yourself into the grave beyond the hole and here is why (your attempt is laughable Albani)

1. In the general niyaat or intention of prayer that many folks say but that is not obligatory.. across all cultures, even in Pashtun culture, the reciter says that his face is towards the qiblah. Never is the stone of even the kabaah mentioned.

2. The Hajj rites can be replaced for the poor.

3. Not a single mention of the stone is given in teh Quranic text whatsoever.

Second, in the Islamic account of judgement day, even the body part will testify against or for man per the Quran.

Another hadith notes:

"Ibn Khuzaima and Ibn Habban, in their two Sahihs, related that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said that the Black Stone would be resurrected on the Day of Judgement with two eyes and a tongue, and would be a witness to those who sincerely touched and kissed it. (8, v. 2, p. 193) Al-Tirmidhi related that it was a good and sound Hadith."

You idiot, if it were GOD, it would not NEED resurrecting and would not testify!

In fact, Omar went a step further:

"I saw Omar Ibn Al-Khattab kissing the Black Stone and prostrating towards" on the authority of Abu Yala

Sorry Albani... time for you to go jump back across the Amu Darya. Its not working out for you here where people are able to outsmart you.