Al Hanif's Shoutbox

[Al Hanif]

^So what credentials make an "automatic" Muslim?

you have to say : "la ilaha ila Lah"

you must :

- Believe in Allah's Revealed Books

- Believe in Angels

- Believe in all the Books revealed by Allah SWT

- Believe in all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah SWT, all of them and you must bear witness that there is no other prophet or messenger after prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

- Believe in the Day of Judgment

- Believe in Al-Qadar (divine decree)

you must testify when asked that :

- all the people who practise shirk will go to hell forever and ever and that they will never be forgiven, all of them, with no exception

- you must not :

- deny the existence of Allah SWT,

- deny the existance of the Angels or the djinns

- reject the prophets

- mock Allah SWT or the prophets (pbut)

- practise idol worship

- reject the sharia, not even a single Quranic legislation verse

- permit some behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery, fornication

- help the kuffars in times of war by supplying them with money, food, workforce, giving them weapons, protection or any political collaboration

- believe in evolution or deny the existance of prophet Adam (pbuh)

... and many other things

if you do any of those things above, then you are not a muslim and it absolutely permissible for me to kill you in time of war

all the other things such as not praying doesnt not make you a non-muslim rather than a bad muslim but if you do any of those things above, you're an apostate

[Soldat_Amir]

Al hanif, I believe in tooth fairies too so where is my dollar?

[tor_khan]

Al Hanif, you gave me a long list of "dos" and some "don'ts". Aren't you just covering your back with your "and many other things"/"etc." remark at the end. Care to expand, so that those who don't know are ABSOLUTELY sure?

Supposing for the most part I agree in principle with some of what you say, but not how you say it. For example, I'm not about to shout names at people and I'm not out to "kill" anyone to prove a point. What then? I'm a Muslim and so are you, but we don't agree with each others manner. Who kills whom??

P.S. You could shorten your list to make things simpler by not repeating yourself. Most people don't like long lists because they forget what is supposed to be on it.

[Al Hanif]

Al Hanif, you gave me a long list of "dos" and some "don'ts". Aren't you just covering your back with your "and many other things"/"etc." remark at the end. Care to expand, so that those who don't know are ABSOLUTELY sure?

Supposing for the most part I agree in principle with some of what you say, but not how you say it. For example, I'm not about to shout names at people and I'm not out to "kill" anyone to prove a point. What then? I'm a Muslim and so are you, but we don't agree with each others manner. Who kills whom??

P.S. You could shorten your list to make things simpler by not repeating yourself. Most people don't like long lists because they forget what is supposed to be on it.

I thought this was clear.

To be a muslim, you have some obligations to fullfil.

For example, the verse 2:285 of the Holy Qur’an shows some of the things someone has to do to be a believer :

"The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination."

So like I said, from this verse, and from other verses about the Day of Judgment, Al Qadar, the 4 sunni madhabs deduced that there are 6 pillars of faith to follow to be considered a believer :

- Belief in Allah SWT (1)
- Belief in the Angels (2)
- Belief in Allah's Revealed Books (3)
- Belief in the Prophets and Messengers of Allah SWT (4)
- Belief in the Day of Judgment (5)
- Belief in Al-Qadar (6)

According to the scholars, if you do accept all those 6 pillars, you are a muslim. According to them, declaring such a person an apostate is impossible and impermissible.

Except that there are many many implicit rules hidden behind those pillars to follow.

And in some situations, there are clear actions that makes you out of Islam.

For example,

- if you reject a prophet or if you recognize Mirza Gulam Ahmad as a prophet, then you are breaking rule (3) as it is stated in the Qur'an that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final messenger of Allah SWT and you are creating another brand new religion which name is not Islam and thus you are not a muslim

- if you practise idol worship, you are breaking rule (3) as worshipping something else but Allah SWT is clearly forbidden in the Noble Qur'an and it is Shirk thus you are not a muslim

- if you reject the sharia, then you are breaking rules (3) and (4) as it is stated in the Qur'an that replacing the Sharia of Allah SWT by man-made laws (taghut) is taking humans as Lords and this is pure Shirk because you take human legislators who contradict the legislation of Allah SWT, you made them as gods instead of God and no need to say that anyone who practices Shirk is anything but a muslim

- if you believe in evolution or deny the existance of prophet Adam (pbuh), then you are breaking the rules (3) and (4) because it would be saying that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lied when he said that there was a prophet Adam (a.s) and it would be saying that the Qur'an is a lie when it says that the first man was created from mud thus you are not a muslim

- if you help the kuffars in times of war by supplying them with money, food, workforce, giving them weapons, protection or any political collaboration, then you are not a muslim since you are breaking the rule (3) because ALLAH Almighty has said in Surat aal-'Imraan

118. O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisers, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.
119. Lo! you are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Scriptures [ie. you believe in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), while they disbelieve in your Book, the Qur'an]. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe". But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: "Perish in your rage. Certainly, Allah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets )."
120. If a good befalls you, it grieves them, but if some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if you remain patient and become Al-Muttaqun (the pious and righteous persons), not the least harm will their cunning do to you. Surely, Allah surrounds all that they do.


He also said : 80. Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are the works which their souls have sent forward before them with the result, that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.
81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Messenger, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

"O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as your protecting friends (auliya): they are only protecting friends of one another. Whoever of you disobeys this commandment will be counted as one of them. Surely God does not guide the wrongdoers." (Qur’an; 5:51)

Whoever of you disobeys this commandment will be counted as one of them
one of them
one of them
one of them
one of them

meaning a kafir !!!


So if you help the kuffars in times of war by supplying them with money, food, workforce, giving them weapons, protection or any political collaboration, then you are not a muslim, you are a kafir like them and it is permissible to kill you

- if you permit some behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery, fornication, then you are rejecting the sharia and make permissible what Allah SWT has forbidden, once again you make yourself as a god and this is pure Shirk and thus you are not a muslim

- if you deny the existance of the Angels or the jinns, you are basically saying that the Qur'an is a lie and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is a liar so you are breaking rules (3) and (4) and thus you are not a muslim

- if you do not say that all the people who practise shirk will go to hell forever and ever and that they will never be forgiven, all of them, with no exception
and, if you say that some catholics will go to heaven for example or if you say that hell punishments are metaphoric, then you are contradicting the Qur'an and breaking rule (3) because it is clearly stated in the Qur'an that mushiks will go to hell eternally and that this is a real promise thus you are not a muslim

- if you don't believe in the Day of Judgment, then you are breaking the rule (3) by saying that Allah SWT has lied and at the same time you are saying that nobody will be juged and that Islam is just a joke, a game, there is no difference beween a believer and a non-believer and thus you are creating another brand new religion, you are then a brandnewreligionist, not a muslim

- if you mock the prophets of Allah SWT, then you are breaking rule (3) as it is stated in the Qur'an that we must respect the prophets of Allah SWT thus you are not a muslim

so there are clear situations in which someone is considered an apostate and there is no doubt about it

when I said "and many other things" it's just that the list is infinite :

spitting on the Qur'an, soiling it with poop breaks rule (3) as it is stated that only pure people should touch it, saying that Angels have a feminine gender, saying that they can be disobeidient is breaking rule (3) as it is stated that it is forbidden to say it... you can think about many things which would break those 6 pillars

So anyone who breaks one of those pillars and does anything of the above are not following islam but their own religion they created, they are not muslims, they are kuffars

On the other hand, not praying, fornicating, drinking alcohol does not make you a non-muslim if you do respect these pillars. It just makes you a muslim sinner, a bad muslim but you're still a muslim. Except if you say that you weren't sinning and if you say that it was permissible, in this case, you are not a muslim because you are breaking rule (3)

get it ?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Most of what Al-Hanif has written is logically fallacious and linguistically inconsistent when it comes to intepreting the Qur'an.

example: The Meaning of "Auliyah" is very specific in the Qur'an. It doesn't just mean "being friends".

There is also an issue of Qur'anic Literalism vs. Qur'anic Symbolism; which has been under debate for centuries between the Mufasireen (commentators). Al-Zamakhshari did not believe that the Creation of Adam(as) was literally from Mud, nor did Al-Nazzam. Yet neither of these men were ever called Infidels. Al-Jahith believed in evolution explicitly. Also never deemed an infidel.

Essentially Al Hanif what has argued as being the implicit consequence of the Standards of Islamic Vertitude ...is not the Normative standards of Islam; but SAUDI ARABIAN, Wahhabist/Neo-Kharijite INTERPRETATIONS.

He's not Promoting Islam or standing up for Islam, but rather SAUDI Ideology.

And even Based on the Rules of Set Theory ; Al-Hanif's arguments are falsifie......I thought you were a Mathematician Al-Hanif? You should know that most of your statements regarding the Interpretation of the Six Tennets of Iman, are falsified by logic.

[Al Hanif]

Most of what Al-Hanif has written is logically fallacious and linguistically inconsistent when it comes to intepreting the Qur'an.

problem is, it's not what I say, it's what the 4 sunni madhabs scholars say

example: The Meaning of "Auliyah" is very specific in the Qur'an. It doesn't just mean "being friends".

where did I say that it just means "being friends" ?

you know perfectly that it refers about taking them as friends in times of war meaning collaborating with them, why are you beating about the bush ?

There is also an issue of Qur'anic Literalism vs. Qur'anic Symbolism; which has been under debate for centuries between the Mufasireen (commentators). Al-Zamakhshari did not believe that the Creation of Adam(as) was literally from Mud, nor did Al-Nazzam. Yet neither of these men were ever called Infidels. Al-Jahith believed in evolution explicitly. Also never deemed an infidel.

There is no problem of interpretation. Anyone who thinks that Adam (as) did not exist, that he was a monkey or anything is a kafir. There is no doubt about it and 100% of Sunni scholars say the same thing. When we say that Prophet Muhammad met Adam (as) in the 1st sky and that Adam (as) sent him back his greetings, we don't say that he did not met anybody or that he met a monkey-frog. What you have here is someone who is trying to create his own sect by giving false rationalistic interpretations. He has no credibility. I wish you go to your local mosque and explain to the Imam that Adam (as) did not exist. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Essentially Al Hanif what has argued as being the implicit consequence of the Standards of Islamic Vertitude ...is not the Normative standards of Islam; but SAUDI ARABIAN, Wahhabist/Neo-Kharijite INTERPRETATIONS.

He's not Promoting Islam or standing up for Islam, but rather SAUDI Ideology.

Dem A-rabs !!!!

So because a Saudi says the sun is yellow, that means that the sun is not yellow ? Because according to this logic all what Saudis say is not true ?

All what i've written is what Sunni madhabs say. Sunni Orthodoxy Ash'ari and Maturidi Schools as well as the Salafi School

And even Based on the Rules of Set Theory ; Al-Hanif's arguments are falsifie......I thought you were a Mathematician Al-Hanif? You should know that most of your statements regarding the Interpretation of the Six Tennets of Iman, are falsified by logic.

care to explain ?

[Catya Sher]

I personally like the list and explanations given by Al-Hanif.

I suspect some people who are fence - sitters or
silent supporters of the American decimation of Afghanistan
are the ones who start to squirm...
I don't mean Scimitar.

[IamDZJ]

if it makes so much sense then why do you continue remaining an infidel?

[ScimitarXEdge]

[B]problem is, it's not what I say, it's what the 4 sunni madhabs scholars say

Not True, only Khariji scholars interpret things this way. Show us with direct quotations from actual pages of Major Sunni Madhaib

where did I say that it just means "being friends" ?

you know perfectly that it refers about taking them as friends in times of war meaning collaborating with them, why are you beating about the bush ?

This is not necessarily true; Hamza , the Uncle of Nabi(saw) was an infidel and he helped and was friends with the Muslims during times of war.

Your argument is falsified here.

There is no problem of interpretation. Anyone who thinks that Adam (as) did not exist, that he was a monkey or anything is a kafir. There is no doubt about it and 100% of Sunni scholars say the same thing. When we say that Prophet Muhammad met Adam (as) in the 1st sky and that Adam (as) sent him back his greetings, we don't say that he did not met anybody or that he met a monkey-frog. What you have here is someone who is trying to create his own sect by giving false rationalistic interpretations. He has no credibility. I wish you go to your local mosque and explain to the Imam that Adam (as) did not exist. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hahahahha is not a refutation; How many non-Khariji Sunni Texts have you actually read?

In Baghdad there were debates regarding exactly these verses, people were concerned about how someone can exist as a person, a physical human being, in A Non-Material place called Heaven....and you know what?

None were considered blasphemers. ONLY EXPLICIT denial is considered Infidelity to Islam. But different ways of understanding a concept.

Ask your Saudi Slave masters why they use Al-Zamakhshari's tafsir if they think he was an infidel.

Dem A-rabs !!!!

So because a Saudi says the sun is yellow, that means that the sun is not yellow ? Because according to this logic all what Saudis say is not true ?

I can use that counter argument against you; just because the Saudis say the sky is red, means it's true? Because according to your reasoning, because Saudi Kharijis have such an interpretation, it means it's true?

All what i've written is what Sunni madhabs say. Sunni Orthodoxy Ash'ari and Maturidi Schools as well as the Salafi School

Prove that the implcit meanings of the 6 tenets of Iman mean what they mean from the consensus of respect scholars of All 4 Madha'ib.

care to explain ?

Yes take for example.... Tenet #3

There are actually more than 1 possibility which all fall under the subset of Tenet 3

A.) a person can believe something but not implement it
B.) a person can believe something and implement it
C.) a person can believe something and implement something contrary to his belief.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
n.) A person can believe in n but be incapable but believe in some n alternate way to implement it.

all of these falls under subset of Tenet three, so by Set Theory, your argument is not a necessary case, therefore cannot nullify Islam.

[PakistaniAtheist]

This is one reason why I am atheist. He say this is real Muslim another say he is real Muslim then some else say he is real Muslim. They kill you if you dont believe like they do. Quran say it is so clear simple but has so many sects you are left confuse which is real Islam?

[Al Hanif]

Not True, only Khariji scholars interpret things this way. Show us with direct quotations from actual pages of Major Sunni Madhaib

There is no issue of interpretation here, don't hide yourself behind interpretation.

You are well known here for making endless discussions and just to try to prove you're right and have the last word.

Let's go to the source.

When Allah SWT says :

Surat 5 :
81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Messenger, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

You don't need a madhab to understand that the people who collaborate with kuffars do not believe in Allah SWT, in the Messenger, and in what hath been revealed to him. It's Allah SWT himself who tells you that. It's right here, written black on white. I don't care about what any madhab says, those people are clearly kuffars.

That's just an example, I won't spend my time explaining all the points but that's extremely clear.

This is not necessarily true; Hamza , the Uncle of Nabi(saw) was an infidel and he helped and was friends with the Muslims during times of war.

Your argument is falsified here.

Allah's speech >>>>>>>> insert here an infinite number of brackets >>>>>>>>> some particular situations in a space-time plot


When Allah SWT said to not take infidels as Bitanah, it means to not take them as Bitanah. Period.

Hahahahha is not a refutation; How many non-Khariji Sunni Texts have you actually read?

In Baghdad there were debates regarding exactly these verses, people were concerned about how someone can exist as a person, a physical human being, in A Non-Material place called Heaven....and you know what?

None were considered blasphemers. ONLY EXPLICIT denial is considered Infidelity to Islam. But different ways of understanding a concept.

Ask your Saudi Slave masters why they use Al-Zamakhshari's tafsir if they think he was an infidel.

Let's say that the verses about creation are allegorical. Let's say that evolution is true. Let's say that prophet Adam (as) did not exist.

Now prove me that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did exist.
Prove me Angel Djibril is not an allegory.
Prove me that Allah SWT is not an allegory.
Prove me that Allah SWT did not turned the jews who broke Shabbat into pigs and apes, that it was just an allegory.
Prove me that noah's arch is not an allegory.
Prove me that we will be ressurected and that it is not an allegory.

More importantly :

Prove me that punishments in hell are not an allegory.
Prove me that rewards in heaven are not an allegory.

If you do succeed in proving me that these two last points are not allegorical, then I'll stop arguing. If you can't then that means that :

- either you think that they are allegorical but you can't prove it and then I fail to see how someone who thinks there will be no punishment or reward can act differently from a non-believer if he doesn't expect a judgment in the afterlife

- or you think that they are not allegorical but you cant prove it and then you have to tell me why you claim that genesis is allegorical and that punishment in the afterlife is not allegorical

My guess is that you don't even believe in Allah SWT. You are just trolling here.

It's people like you who destroyed Christianity. If you learnt about the Catholic Church, how it was destroyed, you will find that it was because of rationalists like you. I know it and I know it very well, I live in France, Humanism, Rationalism, les Lumières, French monarchy, French Revolution... I've studied it. I know what happened. You are going way too far in your rationalism and my guess is that you are working for the Dajjal. Thanks to Allah SWT the rationalist school of thoughts such as the Mu'tazili School disappeared in the 10th century. Evolutionnism is the Trojan Horse of Islam and you better stop going too far if you really believe in god.

A.) a person can believe something but not implement it
B.) a person can believe something and implement it
C.) a person can believe something and implement something contrary to his belief.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
n.) A person can believe in n but be incapable but believe in some n alternate way to implement it.

all of these falls under subset of Tenet three, so by Set Theory, your argument is not a necessary case, therefore cannot nullify Islam.

This is madness. You are completely crazy. You are going way too far. You think that religion is a scientific item ? You think that you can apply scientific method to religion ?

Then explain the Omnipotence paradox.

First of all, even if we follow the scientific method, it is clearly written that the people who collaborate with kuffars are not believers.

Surat al Imran :
81. If only they had believed in Allah, in the Messenger, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.

In your propositions A, B, C,... n, the premise (a person can believe something) is not even fulfilled. Those people do not even believe according to Allah SWT himself. So there is no need to waste our time.

[Al Hanif]

This is one reason why I am atheist. He say this is real Muslim another say he is real Muslim then some else say he is real Muslim. They kill you if you dont believe like they do. Quran say it is so clear simple but has so many sects you are left confuse which is real Islam?

We may not agree each others about who exactly is a muslim but we sure do agree that you are not a muslim and that you will go to hell eternally. Isn't it fantastic ?

[PakistaniAtheist]

We may not agree each others about who exactly is a muslim but we sure do agree that you are not a muslim and that you will go to hell eternally. Isn't it fantastic ?

Hi if you dont agree on who is muslim that means you think the other will go to hell so it doesnt matter if you or the other think i am going to hell because you think the same about each other. That is the problem with your religion. Keep killing each other Shia againt Sunni let me know when you figure out who what is real Islam and Muslim. You are sunni support saudi arabia with US Israel against Iran. Your religion is nothing but power struggle and politics. Any one not supporting your politics nation they are fake kafir muslims. It is that simple.

[tor_khan]

I personally like the list and explanations given by Al-Hanif.

I suspect some people who are fence - sitters or
silent supporters of the American decimation of Afghanistan
are the ones who start to squirm...
I don't mean Scimitar.

if it makes so much sense then why do you continue remaining an infidel?

Print and distribute.

[Soldat_Amir]

I personally like the list and explanations given by Al-Hanif.

I suspect some people who are fence - sitters or
silent supporters of the American decimation of Afghanistan
are the ones who start to squirm...
I don't mean Scimitar.

Catya Sher, I dont know, if its one of your exotic fantasies to be the female lawrence of Arabia, but however if you love the Taliban,Haqqanis and Al Qaida so much, then why dont you join them as I hear they also recruit female suicide bombers too.

I am tired of these people who on one side support terror on Pashtun lands, while on the other side, they sit in their cosy homes in the West with no idea of what really goes on in the Pashtun hewad.