American Muslims and their weird mentality

[شمله ور خراساني]

Can you justify your staying quite infront of her highness Queen Beatrice with proofs from Quran and Sunnah. LOL

Chi doomra nar ii, no sa khoo oo waya, Tell us what allah says about a kafir queen.

You are so stupid. You think that in Holland it is somehow against the law to speak against the queen.

The queen is a kaafira. And her country is founded upon kufr. And every law and ruling in this country is based on kufr.

And I have no right to live here.

From Islamic perspective Hijra fi sabil allah is obligatory upon me, and every other Muslim.

However, there are 3 exceptions to this ruling in Sharia. Study, trade or Dawah.

I am only allowed to stay here if I am studying. But as soon as I finish my education I will be gone.

While I am here, I am participating in Dawah to kaafirs.

So my stay here is legitimate as long as I do not stretch it out for longer than the few years I need to finish my education.

When I am done I will be back in Afghanistan where I can make the life of apostates, infidels and servants of the kufar miserable inshaa allah.

[شمله ور خراساني]

kafir-an infidel=one who does not follow the islamic faith. islam does not own god. we are all creations of god, no?

true. Adam is wrong. You are kaafirah.

[شمله ور خراساني]

how do you know i am not already a servant of god?

In a broad sense, everything is a servant of Allah. But when someone submits himself to Allah willingly, that person becomes a Muslim.

So yes, you are a servant. Because Allah can always decide what he wishes to do with you.

But you have not a Muslimah.

Now dont act smart and answer the question. What prevents you from becoming a Muslima?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangaar Lala,

It is not so simple as us and them. I generally agree you regarding personal and then collective responsibility. To further explain: Yes, because Americans have the right to vote their governments into power (theoretically) and because we pay taxes, we are responsible, collectively for our government's actions. In some ways, when we view the Quranic text's commentary on collective versus personal responsibility, it also indicates that nations are judged by the One and only God. For instance, if no one in a community prays the janazzaah, as I understand it, the community is held responsible.

So one might say that the current brutality inflicted on the Syrians, in their effort to oust their Allawite Baathist dictator leaders is a noble collective struggle that evidences a nation attempting to earn God's grace. By extension of this logic, I could say that the Bush 1 term might have been an excuse to negate the general American populace's collective responsiblity because of the election irregularities in Dade Miami. However, the Bush 2 term, a free American vote, status post an aggressive Iraq War intervention may have sealed our fate as having crossed the Rubicon and having collectively approved of such a dastardly war action.

Right and wrong though, supercede this being a simple equation of a choice between referring to one's self as an American (and hence a modern Roman) or a Believer.

Nations and tribes are artificial constructs that are generally meant to serve as organization units, but jingoism can sometimes cloud the senses.

For instance, separate yourself from the House of Islam versus the Western powers struggle and you actually see that American interventionalism in Latin America was just as brutal and just as heartbreaking and just as blow back generating as the interventionalism in the Muslim world. The propping up of the brutal Batista of Cuba was about as bad as the propping up of The Karzais of the Muslim world (in terms of both intentions and outcomes).

This all being said Sangar Lala, I have had some amazing experiences here. Allah in his wisdom is either

1) Extending the rope that open and unabashed unbelief earns per Surah Baqrah's beginning ayahs. This in turn would potentially mean that the long arduous decline of an empire has intiated by its own hand.
or/and
2) Cleansing the Muslims through hard and difficult and tumultous struggles.
3) In his supreme mercy, is allowing other nations the chance to hear his divine word.

I can tell you that since 9/11 and since this war started, folks I have personally known have taken an active interest in the Quranic text. Just today, for example, I walked into a middle aged care-coordinator's office here at Yale. I saw she had a postcard on her wall: the post card said: La illaha Ill ullaah wa Muhammad dur rasullulaah. I asked her if she knew what that meant. She told me she had traveled to the Al Hambraah in Spain and thought the card was beautiful. I read to her its text and she did not at all seem surprised. She went on to tell me that she bought a copy of the Quran and was reading it and was glad I translated the Arabic for her. This is just your average lay person by the way. She said her randomly assigned roomate in college was an Egyptian and that since the recent death of Mr. Bin Ladin, she wanted to understand, in her own words "what all of this is about."

I cross over the street because the training programs at most major academic center involves mandatory duty at VA hospitals that take care of American veterans. I had a fascinating experience there. I was wearing some shoe like sandaals I bought in Jalalabaad because they look dressy but are sandal like enough to feel comfortable. The first vet asked me where I got the shoes from and asked me regarding my ethnicity. I told him they came from Afghanistan, etc (needless to say I do not wear them anymore as they get me too much attention). He went on to tell me that his son was in Iraq and that he hated Vietnemese people and told his son "to do whatever it takes to win." As a professional obligation, I ignored his commentary.

However, later on a second Vietnam vet walked in and asked the same question. He then shut the door, and I thought I was going to have to call security... instead he said to me: "You know, i dont at all blame people in your parent's country for fighting us... I cannot fathom how, after we know our own history here, we can't understand that people are upset because we are trampling on their religion and their way of life." I had to stay quiet per professional obligations and just nod my head... but he would have none of it. He went on to say that he understood Mr. Bin Ladin very well and could see through his eyes and understand why he was so mad at our involvement in the Muslim world. He said he was deeply sorry and refused to judge an American life as more valuable than the life of a poor boy in Afghanistan. At the end of it all, he said that he still had friends he made long ago in Asia and was contemplating leaving and moving. I also grew up in a predominantly military area and had folks around me asking to read the Quran. They generally have been very calm, collected, and less supportive of such horrible actions after understanding what the other side's divine text actually says.

So Sangaar Lala, I cannot speak for the other Americans here, but what I can say is that for me:
1) American is a label associated with country. All it does is denote citizenship and geographical location, possibly.
2) The two concepts, Americanism and Islamism, dont have to be mutually exclusive to one another. Just as Muhammad (S) was a Quraysh tribal member and was a denizen of Makkah, American is a modern label in a similar sense. For instance, one can be an American and disavow American Interventionalism and wrong actions anywhere in the world, not just in the Muslim world. Take Dr. Ron Paul... he has clearly disavowed American actions and referred to the golden rule many a time.
3) Many of us have encountered hate in the West, but we have also seen hints of light seeping through the darkness in the form of people who generally want good for the world (Dr. Paul/that second veteran/etc) and who are taking notice of islam and investigating it.

Take for example that homosexual soldier Bradley Manning. What drove him to leak the files to wikileaks was a gnawing feeling and horrible actions he had witnessed in Iraq. Although I detest homosexuality, and although I am sure Mr. Manning and I would not see eye to eye on religious affairs... it was his humanity that drove him to speak truth to power and now be jailed for it.

America has also given birth to the likes of Malcolm X. Or read about the heroism of James Zwerg, the freedom rider:
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-16/u...-trip?_s=PM:US

Remember, Allah has a plan... Muslims should be comforted in their hearts that Islam is gauranteed victory. If God delays that victory it is by our own hands... but it is promised. If Allah decides, in his wisdom, that Islam's message will reach new people and he delays their fall out of mercy... so be bit.. he knows more. Remember Ninevah and Yunus Alaay Salaam. If Allah decides that this is a trial... then so be it as well.


Remember, Allah has at times, taken a people who were the deepest enemies to islam and made them the vangaurd for it (Arabs, Mongols, Turks, etc).

The bottom line is that it is not Americanism that is the problem... its collective responsibility and the duty to understand your fellow man.

So for me, I refuse to sell out and to criticize folks in Afghanistan and Iraq for fighting an assymetric war with everything they can... its human nature and has been done by Tecumseh, Wallace, Metacom, and others before them. I refuse to gloat about how amazingly Muslims are treated in Western nations and compare it to the Middle East and Central Asia when there is so much complexity lacking in that rather shallow assessment (i.e. of course one is more free here than in Saudi but the caveat is that we prop up saudi and Egypt and a whole list of other offender nation tyrants). Instead, my goals are to understand A) Why the Muslimeen struggling with Korean era weaponry are willing to do so against such massive odds and B) What American governmental action has done to create this blowback against Americans in general.

That all being said, you must also accept that this interventionalist action is the natural course of empires. Countries, like people, rarely like to admit when they are wrong.

However, I 100% agree with you that wrong is wrong and right is right. One should be willing to speak out against even their own father if they believe he has done wrong. Jingoism has no place in Islam or in the pursuit of truth. So American Muslims have the collective responsibility to help their compatriots understand the true reason that Muslims world round are so upset with American interventionalism that they are willing to take action. The BS that it is the length of Britney Spears's skirt, or because women work, or because of art posted in the Guggenheim museum that has created this worldwide insurgency is sickening. No one in their right mind is going to go and fight with their life on the line because Angelina Jolie made two new movies or even three. It is also absurd that any human being faults other humans anywhere for having the natural response that folks do to occupation.

I mean I am a rational person... if a group of Pashtuns took over a single American town by force... to expect that the Americans would not rise up and resort to fighting back would be absurd.

If a group of Pashtuns raid Panjshir and we expect that the local ethnic group would not get mad and rise up, we would be utterly lacking in human sensibilities.

Take for example, this act of stupidity in the Caucuses today:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110526...estusdiplomacy

It does America no good whatsoever that they go against their own self interests and support local tyrants that Russia has transplanted into Central Asia/Caucuses. All it does is add to the evidence cited by the Islamists themselves that America is willing to support separatist aspirations for all parties that are non Muslim (e.g. East Timor and South Sudan)... but when it comes to Muslims attempting to overthrow dictators like Islam Karimov and others, the Americans get involved in the affairs of others to their detriment.

So the bottom line Sangar Lala, is that a good American speaks the truth and an American Muslim speaks truth to power and doesnt let his own biases, family history, and personal desires cloud the evidence at hand regarding who is truly transgressing and causing world conflict.

Others outside of this fold, take for example, our allies the South Koreans, have even recognized our interventionalism causes so many of our own problems. Take a look at this Canadian poll:

"48 Percentage of respondents in South Korea who say the U.S. is a bigger threat to world peace and stability than North Korea. Thirty-nine per cent said the opposite. Overall, respondents said the United States was more dangerous to world peace and stability than China, Russia, France, Iran and Syria. American respondents answered the opposite on all accounts."

CBC News - Indepth: What the World Thinks of America

That is rather large percentage that has no Muslim stake, but does have an American stake in this conflict... and understand this simple situation: Our interventionalism abroad is what causes folks world round to want to fight us.

The reason why I opened this thread was because of the divided loyalty Muslims are suffering from.

The war in Afghanistan and American policy was only a sidenote to it.

The main problem I observe is the blind loyalty and sentimental attachement to a society which is based on disbelief.

Surely the Sahaba did love their home town in Mekkah when they were forced to preform Hijra.

But none of the Sahaba would go and praise Quraysh and their status and wealth.

None of the Sahaba did go around telling how wonderful Quraysh are and how noble their tribe is.

But unfortunately, you see American Muslims ignoring their positions as Muslims. They assume that religion and nationality are two aspects of their identity.

And I disagree with you. Both, Islamic faith and AMerican patriotism cannot coexit. They are mutually exclusive.

Malcolm X ( in has later years) was an absolute Muwaheed. Yes, the American society did produce him. But so was Umar ibn al Khattab a product of Mekkah.

Today we praise Umar and Malcolm not because of hteir infidel society. But because of their individual merits.

Loyalty to a d nation which bares the symbols of disbelief ( US constitution, AMerican culture/customs) nullifies the "kufr bi taghoot" a Muslim suppose to have.

I am not born in Holland. And I will never be a Dutch man. But I speak their language, I know their social mores, I know their history and their culture. When Holland plays the soccer finals I do not cheer. When Dutch scientists come up with a new gadget I do not say: "we did it". When the queen gets a new grand child I do not smile.

Not because I am not a good sport. But because I have disavowed the infidel society.

Therefore, I cannot understand why for "American Muslims" it is so hard to remain "neutral" and not become a typical Yankee.

Needless to say, there are a great many good Muslims in USA. Probably better than the lazy Muslims here in Holland.

The Dawah to non-Muslims in USA is much stronger than in mainland Europe (except Germany of course).

[faye]

i can't help but act smart, i am smart, lol. i don't need to have a religion. why should i become a muslim? i love music and dance and many things which would not be approved and i am happy.

[شمله ور خراساني]

i can't help but act smart, i am smart, lol. i don't need to have a religion. why should i become a muslim? i love music and dance and many things which would not be approved and i am happy.

In other words, you worship your own desires rather than your creator and sustainer.

This is why Muslims are suppose to disavow disbelievers. Because of your arrogance. You follow your own desires without any regard to the purpose for which you have been put on this earth.

[faye]

YEP!

[Manzareh]

Faye, if you dont mind me asking, are you an atheist or do you believe god does exist???

[faye]

manzareh, i believe there is a creator but for me it is a consciousness and there is no division, for me, between creator and creation but that there are way more levels to creation/creator than what we call reality. way more.
it is all very amazing to me. i am in awe of a cosciousness that has manifested such an incredible reality and for human beings to not cherish this, is abominable. i believe life is a learning process and the capacity for negative, destructive ideas and actions are a part that. it is there for a reason. i don't believe in a devil or hell.
i think human consciousness is still evolving and we have the potential and choice to create a peaceful and constructive existence on the planet. (eventually)

[randolph85]

as the coup said in one of their songs "i might of been born here but i am a foreigner"

the reason we are in the west is because of what the west brought to us in afghanistan. how many millions would of fled the country had not the west decided to use us as a pawn on a grand chess board? a country that posed no harm to anyone and whose people were humble in relative poverty. i owe no allegiance to the nation that set in motion the events that led me to be born here. i will follow their laws, pay my taxes, and go about my business without harming anyone but i won't pretend i owe this state any favors.

people thank the US for taking in their parents without realizing this nation was built on immigration. they will pay for ur parents healthcare, home, and other expenses like many lazy ass afghans here take advantage of. this while their children become tax payers and assimilated into the godless culture of this country, marry kaffirs and eventually lose any trace of culture from where their parents or grandparents came from.

[torkham]

going back to wrora khorasani's observations, generation born in the west, especially us, canada and uk, many become absorbed in the western cutlure to the point of believing that they actually are western. i too observed this amongst SOME afghans and turks in germany, amongst pakistani/indians in uk.

my conclusions are that aforementioned western raised muslims are seduced by their environment. the others are the ones who have seen the light, through experience, the experience where the very culture people are raised in kicked them in their foreign faces and made them realise they really are not part of america/uk/europe as much as they have been seduced in believing.

i think it is the very seduction our deen warns us of.

the evidence is anecdotal and personal, however i am sure there are logical surgeons among PF members who can deduce similar conclusions by deduction.

[tor_khan]

^Mine too is an anecdotal view in that I find that American Muslims are much more integrated that their European brethren.

Europe, despite the claims, is not truly as accommodating as North America. Initially it viewed it's Muslim migrant populations as temporary guest workers and didn't intend to absorb them in the same way. It has been forced to revise this view, and many political movements in Europe feel that this revision has come at a painful cost to European identity. Just recently for example, Merkel and Cameron representing Germany and the UK both stood on a shared platform and argued that multi-culturalism was dead and that Muslims needed to get ready to assimilate quickly.

Those Muslims in Europe who appear to be assimilated, I find slightly more difficult to deal with because in today's social and political climate, that kind of Euro-wannabeism overlooks the reality. In any case, it is extremely short lived.

What I find absurd is how European male politicians will write newspaper columns on the 'demerits' of a Muslim women wear a headscarf etc. As if a piece of cloth affects them?? It doesn't take a history ace to figure that Europeans have a violent history of religious persecution. Once forced into ghettos for safety, European religious minorities have faced discrimination on all levels. The Spanish Inquisition, Hitler's Germany, Bosnia in the 1990s were all preceded or coincided with exactly those kinds of loyalty tests that European Muslims are subjected to today.

If North American Muslims show patriotism to their lands, then compared to the European experience, it makes much more sense. Out of that comes an American Muslim experience which is much comfortable being Muslim and Western.

[شمله ور خراساني]

The assimilated "Muslims" In Europe are usually people who do not practice their religion anymore.

However, in USA, you have Imams who preach preach "American Dream".

But then again, you have many lazy imbeciles in Europe among Muslims who live off benefits and never try to find a job.

Being a patriotic American Muslim or someone who lives off benefits in Europe is quite similar, if you ask me.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I consider such individuals house slaves

Logical reasoning and common sense knows that to defeat an enemy you have to master over the enemies weaknesses and techniques.

we should master science and math, while of course retaining our values and principles; so that we can bring their empire down from within. They can't function without technology, if we break their technology, we break them.

[faye]

what you keep implying here scimitarx is that muslims and muslim countries are totally victims. then explain to me the killing , oppression and prejudice that occurs by muslims aginst other muslims. sangar has often expressed his anti sufism and many here are expressing their hatred and dislike for other muslims, tribes, countries, in a very racist way. the sunnis and shias have issues including the hazara refugees who come to australia claiming prejudice and mistreatment of them, in afghanistan
there is this talk of how prejudiced westerners are of muslims but being on this forum has shown me how much muslims feel distaste for the western ways and the non muslims, in the countries in which they are living. it seems, many of you are in europe or america, with disdain and disapproval of the people and the culture so you can just gain for yourself. the attitude you are putting out will help produce antagonism toward you. it is not just a one way street.
if i go to another country and i hate the people and disapprove of them, i would expect to recieve unfriendliness.
i agree that environmental issues and interferences by the west is destructive to muslim countries and the planet but you have to look at yourselves and start to take responsibility for improving your own behaviour towards each other too.
sangar puts up some ridiculous video of a silly woman, burning a quaran. why doesn't he put up a video of muslims killing muslims in the middle east, right now, and say, why??? why are we doing this to each other?