American Muslims and their weird mentality

[tor_khan]

If we take the example that Sangar gives about needing to oppose governments I doubt there would be much peace for a very long time simply because all governments, even the most seemingly benign, serve their own agenda. We could find a way to identify examples of when they have all acted against Muslims.

I do think however that Europe is more nervous about its Muslim populations than the North Americans are and this creates a sense of disloyalty both ways.

[شمله ور خراساني]

If we take the example that Sangar gives about needing to oppose governments I doubt there would be much peace for a very long time simply because all governments, even the most seemingly benign, serve their own agenda. We could find a way to identify examples of when they have all acted against Muslims.

I do think however that Europe is more nervous about its Muslim populations than the North Americans are and this creates a sense of disloyalty both ways.

Not being patriotic or having nationalist sentiments towards a society and a government which is created and run by kaafirs does not lead to warfare.

Muslims have lived in such environments through out the history. From the time of the Prophets like Musa Alayhi salaam untill today.

Being in a kaafir environment and not being emotionally attached to its kaafir identity does not lead to bombing schools etc as Gulbabo assumes.

You can be a normal citizen like everybody else without having the patriotism some people have.

In many European countries, the indigenous people are not raised to be nationalists and patriots.

These sentiments are only common among the lower class and the bottom of the society.

But when I interact with Muslims from USA, some of them have similar traits and views as the far right nationalists in Europe.


They love USA and say that it is the greatest place on earth. And they boast about their nationality (an American) and they claim that USA is the most powerful and most advanced country of the world.

If a white redneck incestuous cowboy would have said stuff like that, it wouldn't have come as a surprise.

But someone who claims to be a servant of Allah and pronounces la illaha il allah say stuff like that it is quite shocking. Because loyalty to a taghoot is a nullifier of the kalima shahadah

[ScimitarXEdge]

It's funny how you assume I still consider you as a human being let alone someone with whom I hope to share a "society". Here is a suggestion, why dont you take your "society" and walk it to hell with you. I will have me nothing to do with the likes of your "society" so flatter yourself not.

Well then good, since my society is the society of Muslims; you gladly openly admit you're not from amongst Muslims. Honesty is the first step to change.

However you still identify yourself as one and long to interfere and motivate counter social ideals while posing as one. Hence the label of being a traitor still applies.

If Allah(swt) represents Islam; then between the two of us, it won't be me walking to hell.

[ScimitarXEdge]

All the people like Gulbabo, tring to justify patriotism or say that anti patriotism is hypocrisy are just trying to justify being house slaves/uncle oms without the guilt of having to admit they've become mentally enslaved.

[graveyardofempires]

^
Zahrojaam

dont fight it,go find a Mullah/exorcist to help you get rid of the jind you got.

[faye]

You are among Muslims here on PF. You have plenty opportunity to learn about Islam and accept it.

What is preventing you from becoming a servant of Allah?

And be honest.

how do you know i am not already a servant of god?

[IamDZJ]

So now I am a traitor who Is headed towards hell because I don't hate Canada?? If you are not living in USA or Canada for the living advantages it provides then mat u ask exatly what the **** it is that you are doing here?? Why are you here then?? How do you plan on redeeming yourself this time?? Dare I ask, what it is you plan on blowing off this time??
Also, in Canada Muslims are not treated like dogs the way they are in america

[faye]

kafir-an infidel=one who does not follow the islamic faith. islam does not own god. we are all creations of god, no?

[Baygham]

Can you justify that with proofs from Quran & Sunnah?

Can you justify your staying quite infront of her highness Queen Beatrice with proofs from Quran and Sunnah. LOL

Chi doomra nar ii, no sa khoo oo waya, Tell us what allah says about a kafir queen.

[faye]

No because christians and jews are not usually defined as "kaafirs"

well i am not a christian and not a jew, but that is the dictionary definition adam.

[IamDZJ]

Faye it's like the definition of ignorant. If you havent had the opportunity to learn something isn't explained to you then you are not an ignorant. It's when you choose to turn away from truth and God when you become a kafir

[faye]

Faye it's like the definition of ignorant. If you havent had the opportunity to learn something isn't explained to you then you are not an ignorant. It's when you choose to turn away from truth and God when you become a kafir

depends whose truth doesn't it? there are many different views of what truth is. i have my own just like every other person on the planet.

[IamDZJ]

depends whose truth doesn't it? there are many different views of what truth is. i have my own just like every other person on the planet.

truth is not different versions of itself. Different versions of it is the process of getting to it. At the end there is only one truth. You are supposed to care for the definitions of things according to that truth and avoid the other versions.
To deny the existence of something, first you have to admit to the possibility of it existing. If you don't know the characteristics of what you are searching for, how would you know if it does or doesn't exist??.

[khashayar]

Truth is a mirror dropped from the hands of God and shattered. Everyone picks up a fragment thinking that is all there is to it.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Sangaar Lala,

It is not so simple as us and them. I generally agree you regarding personal and then collective responsibility. To further explain: Yes, because Americans have the right to vote their governments into power (theoretically) and because we pay taxes, we are responsible, collectively for our government's actions. In some ways, when we view the Quranic text's commentary on collective versus personal responsibility, it also indicates that nations are judged by the One and only God. For instance, if no one in a community prays the janazzaah, as I understand it, the community is held responsible.

So one might say that the current brutality inflicted on the Syrians, in their effort to oust their Allawite Baathist dictator leaders is a noble collective struggle that evidences a nation attempting to earn God's grace. By extension of this logic, I could say that the Bush 1 term might have been an excuse to negate the general American populace's collective responsiblity because of the election irregularities in Dade Miami. However, the Bush 2 term, a free American vote, status post an aggressive Iraq War intervention may have sealed our fate as having crossed the Rubicon and having collectively approved of such a dastardly war action.

Right and wrong though, supercede this being a simple equation of a choice between referring to one's self as an American (and hence a modern Roman) or a Believer.

Nations and tribes are artificial constructs that are generally meant to serve as organization units, but jingoism can sometimes cloud the senses.

For instance, separate yourself from the House of Islam versus the Western powers struggle and you actually see that American interventionalism in Latin America was just as brutal and just as heartbreaking and just as blow back generating as the interventionalism in the Muslim world. The propping up of the brutal Batista of Cuba was about as bad as the propping up of The Karzais of the Muslim world (in terms of both intentions and outcomes).

This all being said Sangar Lala, I have had some amazing experiences here. Allah in his wisdom is either

1) Extending the rope that open and unabashed unbelief earns per Surah Baqrah's beginning ayahs. This in turn would potentially mean that the long arduous decline of an empire has intiated by its own hand.
or/and
2) Cleansing the Muslims through hard and difficult and tumultous struggles.
3) In his supreme mercy, is allowing other nations the chance to hear his divine word.

I can tell you that since 9/11 and since this war started, folks I have personally known have taken an active interest in the Quranic text. Just today, for example, I walked into a middle aged care-coordinator's office here at Yale. I saw she had a postcard on her wall: the post card said: La illaha Ill ullaah wa Muhammad dur rasullulaah. I asked her if she knew what that meant. She told me she had traveled to the Al Hambraah in Spain and thought the card was beautiful. I read to her its text and she did not at all seem surprised. She went on to tell me that she bought a copy of the Quran and was reading it and was glad I translated the Arabic for her. This is just your average lay person by the way. She said her randomly assigned roomate in college was an Egyptian and that since the recent death of Mr. Bin Ladin, she wanted to understand, in her own words "what all of this is about."

I cross over the street because the training programs at most major academic center involves mandatory duty at VA hospitals that take care of American veterans. I had a fascinating experience there. I was wearing some shoe like sandaals I bought in Jalalabaad because they look dressy but are sandal like enough to feel comfortable. The first vet asked me where I got the shoes from and asked me regarding my ethnicity. I told him they came from Afghanistan, etc (needless to say I do not wear them anymore as they get me too much attention). He went on to tell me that his son was in Iraq and that he hated Vietnemese people and told his son "to do whatever it takes to win." As a professional obligation, I ignored his commentary.

However, later on a second Vietnam vet walked in and asked the same question. He then shut the door, and I thought I was going to have to call security... instead he said to me: "You know, i dont at all blame people in your parent's country for fighting us... I cannot fathom how, after we know our own history here, we can't understand that people are upset because we are trampling on their religion and their way of life." I had to stay quiet per professional obligations and just nod my head... but he would have none of it. He went on to say that he understood Mr. Bin Ladin very well and could see through his eyes and understand why he was so mad at our involvement in the Muslim world. He said he was deeply sorry and refused to judge an American life as more valuable than the life of a poor boy in Afghanistan. At the end of it all, he said that he still had friends he made long ago in Asia and was contemplating leaving and moving. I also grew up in a predominantly military area and had folks around me asking to read the Quran. They generally have been very calm, collected, and less supportive of such horrible actions after understanding what the other side's divine text actually says.

So Sangaar Lala, I cannot speak for the other Americans here, but what I can say is that for me:
1) American is a label associated with country. All it does is denote citizenship and geographical location, possibly.
2) The two concepts, Americanism and Islamism, dont have to be mutually exclusive to one another. Just as Muhammad (S) was a Quraysh tribal member and was a denizen of Makkah, American is a modern label in a similar sense. For instance, one can be an American and disavow American Interventionalism and wrong actions anywhere in the world, not just in the Muslim world. Take Dr. Ron Paul... he has clearly disavowed American actions and referred to the golden rule many a time.
3) Many of us have encountered hate in the West, but we have also seen hints of light seeping through the darkness in the form of people who generally want good for the world (Dr. Paul/that second veteran/etc) and who are taking notice of islam and investigating it.

Take for example that homosexual soldier Bradley Manning. What drove him to leak the files to wikileaks was a gnawing feeling and horrible actions he had witnessed in Iraq. Although I detest homosexuality, and although I am sure Mr. Manning and I would not see eye to eye on religious affairs... it was his humanity that drove him to speak truth to power and now be jailed for it.

America has also given birth to the likes of Malcolm X. Or read about the heroism of James Zwerg, the freedom rider:
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-16/u...-trip?_s=PM:US

Remember, Allah has a plan... Muslims should be comforted in their hearts that Islam is gauranteed victory. If God delays that victory it is by our own hands... but it is promised. If Allah decides, in his wisdom, that Islam's message will reach new people and he delays their fall out of mercy... so be bit.. he knows more. Remember Ninevah and Yunus Alaay Salaam. If Allah decides that this is a trial... then so be it as well.


Remember, Allah has at times, taken a people who were the deepest enemies to islam and made them the vangaurd for it (Arabs, Mongols, Turks, etc).

The bottom line is that it is not Americanism that is the problem... its collective responsibility and the duty to understand your fellow man.

So for me, I refuse to sell out and to criticize folks in Afghanistan and Iraq for fighting an assymetric war with everything they can... its human nature and has been done by Tecumseh, Wallace, Metacom, and others before them. I refuse to gloat about how amazingly Muslims are treated in Western nations and compare it to the Middle East and Central Asia when there is so much complexity lacking in that rather shallow assessment (i.e. of course one is more free here than in Saudi but the caveat is that we prop up saudi and Egypt and a whole list of other offender nation tyrants). Instead, my goals are to understand A) Why the Muslimeen struggling with Korean era weaponry are willing to do so against such massive odds and B) What American governmental action has done to create this blowback against Americans in general.

That all being said, you must also accept that this interventionalist action is the natural course of empires. Countries, like people, rarely like to admit when they are wrong.

However, I 100% agree with you that wrong is wrong and right is right. One should be willing to speak out against even their own father if they believe he has done wrong. Jingoism has no place in Islam or in the pursuit of truth. So American Muslims have the collective responsibility to help their compatriots understand the true reason that Muslims world round are so upset with American interventionalism that they are willing to take action. The BS that it is the length of Britney Spears's skirt, or because women work, or because of art posted in the Guggenheim museum that has created this worldwide insurgency is sickening. No one in their right mind is going to go and fight with their life on the line because Angelina Jolie made two new movies or even three. It is also absurd that any human being faults other humans anywhere for having the natural response that folks do to occupation.

I mean I am a rational person... if a group of Pashtuns took over a single American town by force... to expect that the Americans would not rise up and resort to fighting back would be absurd.

If a group of Pashtuns raid Panjshir and we expect that the local ethnic group would not get mad and rise up, we would be utterly lacking in human sensibilities.

Take for example, this act of stupidity in the Caucuses today:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110526...estusdiplomacy

It does America no good whatsoever that they go against their own self interests and support local tyrants that Russia has transplanted into Central Asia/Caucuses. All it does is add to the evidence cited by the Islamists themselves that America is willing to support separatist aspirations for all parties that are non Muslim (e.g. East Timor and South Sudan)... but when it comes to Muslims attempting to overthrow dictators like Islam Karimov and others, the Americans get involved in the affairs of others to their detriment.

So the bottom line Sangar Lala, is that a good American speaks the truth and an American Muslim speaks truth to power and doesnt let his own biases, family history, and personal desires cloud the evidence at hand regarding who is truly transgressing and causing world conflict.

Others outside of this fold, take for example, our allies the South Koreans, have even recognized our interventionalism causes so many of our own problems. Take a look at this Canadian poll:

"48 Percentage of respondents in South Korea who say the U.S. is a bigger threat to world peace and stability than North Korea. Thirty-nine per cent said the opposite. Overall, respondents said the United States was more dangerous to world peace and stability than China, Russia, France, Iran and Syria. American respondents answered the opposite on all accounts."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/america/poll.html

That is rather large percentage that has no Muslim stake, but does have an American stake in this conflict... and understand this simple situation: Our interventionalism abroad is what causes folks world round to want to fight us.