What is the need of Religion?

[Michin Khel]

Wow, Nadir! I was going to say something similar to yours (with regards to the evolution of religion and the evolution of the concept of God), but of course not as well as you did! And the examples you gave are very pertinent to our society as well as our current miserable circumstances. Very true that it's this whole idea of being thankful for whatever we have that prevents us from moving forward -- and in fact pushes us backward instead.

Unfortunately, religion seems to have been interpreted way too negatively for it to have a positive impact on many people. I'm personally pro-positive interpretations of religions, and I think any that prevents a people from moving forward and growing as humans should be rejected. More on this later, as I've written something regarded which sort of interpretations should be accepted and which rejected for the sake of a peaceful humanity (what, isn't that what many Muslims will claim? That Islam means peace and peace only? Then how about evaluating and re-evaluating its current and classical interpretations to seek one that'll remain "Islamic" but will be more pro-humanity and anti-violent? Khair, more on this later.)

Now, I speak mostly of Islam in today's case when it comes to relgiion. In the past, too, it was religion that drove the Christians to kill innocent people (Crusades); today it's the same reason that pushes some Muslims (Taliban and other terrorists) to kill innocent people, and it's the exact same thing that drives some Buddhists to burn each other alive -- of course, these are just a couple of examples of the harms of religion.

However, that doesn't mean religion can't be used positively whatsoever. Of course, it's unreasonable to believe that the only thing that should influence people to be good to others is religion, or that religion is the only thing keeping people immoral, but then ... religion and morality don't always go hand-in-hand. I'm speaking here strictly in practical terms, not in theoretical terms. Lemme give a link to this really amazing article I read some months ago regarding this. I shared it on PF; it's called "Morality and Atheism." (The article was first published in DAWN and is written by the great Irfan Hussain. I think it's very relevant to what's being discussed here, so some of us might wanna take a look at it if we haven't already.) Anyone can see that the most "religious" nations of the world are the most corrupted ones as well, so at least for them, there's no need for religion -- or if the need is there, it's only to keep on completely diminishing their chances for a peaceful, successful, and progressive future.

To me, though, religion doesn't need to be wiped off the face of the earth. Of course, the harmful interpretations do, but not religion itself. C'mon - there are some people who do good ONLY becuase they're expecting a reward in the hereafter, you know. It's exactly this sort of mentality, this one of doing good only for the sake of God and for attaining heaven in the end, that makes some theists think that if you don't believe in God, you must be the most immoral person on earth, even though statistics prove this claim to be wrong.


I'm completely against extremism of all types, be they pro-religion or anti-religion. Instead of repeating my views on this, I'm just gonna ahead and give the link to a blog post I wrote about this about a year ago. It's called "Extremism and Religion - Part I" (oh shucks! The Part II was never posted, hah.).

Anyway, good discussion, folks. Keep it going!

And welcome to PF, Nadir Thanks for joining! We certainly could use more minds like you, bro!

Dear Qrratugai, when i was a kid, i had no interest in studies. My father once told me that if i am able to speak english alphabets from A to Z correctly, he would buy me a water gun as an award. He gave me 24 hours time. To get the award i memorized all english alphabets. my childish brain used to think that playing games is more important than studies. Fear of Punishment from teacher also made me to study.
Without award (which is jannat) and punishment (which is hell) the whole concept of morality becomes invalid. If i lose faith in after life, i would start thinking that i should start enjoying the 60 or 70 years of life to maximum extent. stealing, raping, gossiping,lying, lust murders will feel right to me...i would start thinking about commiting crimes but fear of punishment from state will keep me civil. Punishments and awards maintains morality!
I dont think that morality is that much innate. When i drink alchol, i feel guilty because my religion says that it is haraam. If islam had said that drinking is sawaab, i would have drink alot without any guilt.

[tor_khan]

Morality - the idea of right/wrong, social order, economic frameworks etc. have to be based on something.

Perhaps nothing is perfect when humans take control of it. Certainly there are no non-religious societies that I would call utopic.

[Roshina]

If i lose faith in after life, i would start thinking that i should start enjoying the 60 or 70 years of life to maximum extent. stealing, raping, gossiping,lying, lust murders will feel right to me...i would start thinking about commiting crimes but fear of punishment from state will keep me civil. Punishments and awards maintains morality!

And that's exactly what I was referring to when I said somewhere that some theists use religion to prevent them from committing what they or their religions consider sinful.

However, that doens't mean that people who follow any religion don't drink, lie, steal, rape, kill, etc., does it? Of course not. So it's all a matter of how a person lets religion leads her/him. Like I said, some people use it to justify killing those who don't believe their way, and we all know this is true for many people both today and in the past, but others use religion more positively.

It therefore depends entirely on the individual. I still beleive that one can be perfectly moral without having any religion at all, or without believing in God.

[Badlun]

Religion is basically beliefs, worship and morality. These 3 things are not bad itself. If you believe in God(of course without the notion of fatalism and predeterminism) , you do some spiritual exercises or worship as offering prayers, meditation etc and if you do good things and avoid bad things then there is no harm in religion.

We cant say that Religion should exist or not. It already exists and is a reality as majority of the human beings believe in one or another religion. This is not new. Even the modern advancements of sciene and technology and anti religion movements and philosophies could not wipe out religion.

Philosophy provides the alternatives of Theology and Ethics for Religion but approach of Philosophy and religion are different. Philosophy is the search of ultimate reality through Rational methods while religion is revelational, spiritual, mystical and based on supernatural sources like God. Religion has its own taste and its beliefs, worship and morality cant be substitiued by any thing else. As mango cant be replaced with orange , religion cant be replaced by Philosophy.

Sciene is totally out of question in this whole discussion. Science has nothing to do with beliefs, worship and morality. The cornerstone of sciene is matter and senses. God, prophets, holy books, prayers, morality etc are out of the scope of science. Sciene cant make religion valid or invalid. The same religion cant validate or invalidate science.

Intuition is another competitor of religion which is the direct way to know or feel something as by spiritual, para psychological, mystical, sufistic etc means. Majority of religions take Intuition also its tool and thats why we have religious mysticissm too.

Religion should exist, it does exist and must exist. religion may not be mixed with philosophy and Science. It may not be mixed with politics, economics, culture etc. Every thing has its own scope and sphere of influence and once we avoid mixing these, we wont have problems like terrorism, extremism and religious wars. The goal of religion will be thus spiritual enlightenment and morality and will not be abused or misused by others for their own vested interests.

[pir_Rokhan]

I would disagree slightly. Morality, ethics and social mores are defined by the elite class.

These elite classes are able to define ethics and morality due to the power of science and technology at their back. Otherwise Muboto sesiseko , Robert Mogabay,King Abdullah and Mullah Omar would also have defined values and virtues for the world.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

These elite classes are able to define ethics and morality due to the power of science and technology at their back. Otherwise Muboto sesiseko , Robert Mogabay,King Abdullah and Mullah Omar would also have defined values and virtues for the world.

However, can we continue our discussion roara?

As i said before, what kind of rule of law would you adapt on the Pashtun people?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

These elite classes are able to define ethics and morality due to the power of science and technology at their back. Otherwise Muboto sesiseko , Robert Mogabay,King Abdullah and Mullah Omar would also have defined values and virtues for the world.

What you have said is very intriguing. Could you kindly elaborate further so that I could follow your logic and simplify it in my mind.

Thank you in advance.

[Maiwand]

In western societies we have like a "Dictatorship of the masses or the dictatorship of the majority of people", if the majority wants to do something, then everything goes. They have actually almost no fixed values, morals or ethics, like we have in the Quran and Sunnah. They can change their laws to suite their desires, as long as the populair opinion wants it and as you rightly say, the elite have a great power at their disposal to change the popular opinion and mind, to suite their interests. They have the media and especially television, with which they can easily brainwash people.

Brother Abu Eesa Niamatullah explains this changing culture and values of the west very good in this video:



By the way, he is also a Pashtun!

[Maiwand]

The Islamic state and then the global Khilafah system. That is the system that God wants for humanity, to rule the world according to the divinely ordained laws,
it has solutions for every problem of humanity, both at the worldly domain as well as the spiritual and religious domain.

[Maiwand]

Still they will have their rights guaranteed, no matter whether they are a tiny minority, a large minority. I am confinced that even when atheists and people of other faiths see that system and how it functions and how it deals with people, they will readily accept Islam. But unfortunately the Islamic world today is far from such an ideal.

[Maiwand]

In that case you will be only fooling yourself and you will regret it if you are like that, on the day of judgment.

[pir_Rokhan]

Well....My friend..This is a topic of both philosophy and political science. However let me explain it in a simple layman language as the purpose is to make oursleves clear to find a solution.

You see whether it is Pashtuns or any other nationality, people of various religions, points of views, ideologies and schools of thought live in a country.

The basic principle which has been agreed upon by most philosophers, thinkers, religious reformers, moralists, humanists, etc is Justice. A system has to be base do justice.

Now the only way humanity has discovered so far to have justice in a human society is to have elect certain people which in their opinion can do legislation in a way to do justice to the population of that country.

It is a social contract between the electors and the elected to bestow the authority to their elected representatives according to their will and do legislation which should give a happy prosperous and peaceful progressive developed life style to the inhabitants of the country ensuring their basic human rights plus opportunities for a honest living in addition to contributing to the wellbeing and welfare of their nation and humanity at large.

The executive can execute the laws enacted in the legislative body and if there is any dispute over any issue a judiciary will do its utmost strive to do justice. Now due to the evolution of technology media is also becoming the fourth pillar of a state. The basic theme sii that people should not be ruled against their will, there should be no injustice or exploitation, life and money and respect has to be safeguarded by the state.

The basic rights have to be provided by a state. Difference of opinion has to be respected and tolerated. Everybody should have the right and freedom of exercising his life according to his thoughts and beliefs as long as it does not endangers the lives of others. This framework of a modern state. If Muslims are in majority and they think that their system can ensure justice and basic human rights to the inhabitants of the state then they should be given the opportunity to rule and the same is the case with other ideologies.

The basic thing is that any system which ensure justice and human progress,proposperty,development and better life with basic human rights and needs both material like food,sherlter,clothing,medicines etc as well as spiritual like freedom of expression, freedom of religion /ideology, freedom of expression, freedom to opt for a certain career ,to learn knowledge, freedom to have equal rights on human level etc should be adopted and the evolution of history has taught us after a lot of experimentation about this type of system which are being in practice partially or fully in various countries of the world in various degrees.

If someone, some nation or some group has better solution to achieving these goals or even better ones, the they should start convincing the intelligentsia of humanity about their point of view.

I propose the same system for Pashtuns and Afghans as they are not some extra terrestrial creatures who have honored planet earth with their blessed arrival from some part of the galaxy or nebula.

[pir_Rokhan]

What you have said is very intriguing. Could you kindly elaborate further so that I could follow your logic and simplify it in my mind.

Thank you in advance.

I appreciate your balanced and civilised approach.What I wanted to say is that basically the level of scientific knowledge and technology determines the meanings of what we call values,virtues etc. Let us take a simpel cultural exampel from Pashtuns society called nang or ghairat or pat.

Imagine the concept of ghairat for a man who live sin cave in a mountain.It will be very self centered,egocentric and rather selfish in most matters.

Then with the advent of agrarian age whe agriculture was discovered the same concept evolved,its radius increased and it encompased the family ,as well as kith and kin and even the land and moreove the village in addtion to the community associated with it.With mechanisation of agriculture the concept evolved further,now the smaller units enlrged and it was the people, the live stock,games ,lifestyle,language,customes ,community, places, locations , instruments, factories,city which were the elements of one's stand against their misuse or abuse.

With further industrialisation ,nation,distt ,divisions,provinces and even countries and states were elements of one bias or group mentality.So with the revolution of communication and information explosion now global communities like humanists or democrats or islamists are the point one stand. Now there is no doubt that all this evolution from the cave living style to the modern luxurious houses equipped with facilities of modern conformt and communication are notjhign except the evolution of science and techology.

So we see that the evolution of values,virtues,concepts ,system and ideas are directly proportional to the progress and evoltion of science and technology.This is my point.Those poeple,grouos,nations and comunities who are upto mark have the power to define these terms according to their will and the rest of the humnaity untill they achieve that level of knowledge of scince and technology will have to be at their mercy.

Hence science and technology gives you the power to define the rules of game ,have power and lead the world.Any other person,group or nation who claims or seems to be leading is infact not leading in the real sense if it has not the power of science and technology.The leadership of such a group nation or community is bound to end sooner or later.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Well....My friend..This is a topic of both philosophy and political science. However let me explain it in a simple layman language as the purpose is to make oursleves clear to find a solution.

You see whether it is Pashtuns or any other nationality, people of various religions, points of views, ideologies and schools of thought live in a country.

The basic principle which has been agreed upon by most philosophers, thinkers, religious reformers, moralists, humanists, etc is Justice. A system has to be base do justice.

Now the only way humanity has discovered so far to have justice in a human society is to have elect certain people which in their opinion can do legislation in a way to do justice to the population of that country.

It is a social contract between the electors and the elected to bestow the authority to their elected representatives according to their will and do legislation which should give a happy prosperous and peaceful progressive developed life style to the inhabitants of the country ensuring their basic human rights plus opportunities for a honest living in addition to contributing to the wellbeing and welfare of their nation and humanity at large.

The executive can execute the laws enacted in the legislative body and if there is any dispute over any issue a judiciary will do its utmost strive to do justice. Now due to the evolution of technology media is also becoming the fourth pillar of a state. The basic theme sii that people should not be ruled against their will, there should be no injustice or exploitation, life and money and respect has to be safeguarded by the state.

The basic rights have to be provided by a state. Difference of opinion has to be respected and tolerated. Everybody should have the right and freedom of exercising his life according to his thoughts and beliefs as long as it does not endangers the lives of others. This framework of a modern state. If Muslims are in majority and they think that their system can ensure justice and basic human rights to the inhabitants of the state then they should be given the opportunity to rule and the same is the case with other ideologies.

The basic thing is that any system which ensure justice and human progress,proposperty,development and better life with basic human rights and needs both material like food,sherlter,clothing,medicines etc as well as spiritual like freedom of expression, freedom of religion /ideology, freedom of expression, freedom to opt for a certain career ,to learn knowledge, freedom to have equal rights on human level etc should be adopted and the evolution of history has taught us after a lot of experimentation about this type of system which are being in practice partially or fully in various countries of the world in various degrees.

If someone, some nation or some group has better solution to achieving these goals or even better ones, the they should start convincing the intelligentsia of humanity about their point of view.

I propose the same system for Pashtuns and Afghans as they are not some extra terrestrial creatures who have honored planet earth with their blessed arrival from some part of the galaxy or nebula.

Justice is not universally agreed upon.

Some people consider death penalty as just. Others consider it as unjust. Some people consider the freedom to commit suicide to relief onself from pain as normal. Others consider that as immoral and prohibit it.

There is no way one can claim that there is one universally agreed upon definition of justice in all matters of life.

Western societies have defined their beliefs and ideology of what justice is based on the philosophy and wise men who have shaped their way of thinking. Before this, Christianity was teaching them virtues. BUt since most of Christianity is also based on Greek and Roman classic philosophy, Europe does not have a clear destinct definition of morality as it is framed in our case in Islam.

In Islamic society, our definition of justice, morality etc is defined in Qur'an. We deduct theories of social justice based on our religion. We model ourselves and our environment to the ideals of our religion.

For us to reject Islam and replace it with Western thought is to destroy our society from the ground up and reform it to something else.

1400 years of Islam will have to be washed away and 3000 years of European thought must replace it within a period of few years in order to make Muslims as advanced, and sophisticated as the Europeans.

This is not only impossible, but plainy STUPID!

That is why atheists, murtadeen and the likes are day-dreaming of something that will never happen. It is not surpirsing to see them in such condition since their great source of inspiration, Karl Marx was himself a utopian author.

Islam is for us, what Jean Jaque Rousseeu, John Locke, Jeremy Bentham and Emanuel Kant are for Europeans.

Just because Saudis love women cars and camels, it does not mean we have to denounce Islam and start chanting Vodka, Naghma and Volga!

Our religion has saved us from barbarism. Our anscestors use to be savage people who use to sodomize each other and feed their elder to wild dogs. We are civilized thanks to Islam.

And people might hate that because they have bad experience interacting with ignorant Saudis. But that does not mean that our religion is bad.

[Maiwand]

Well....My friend..This is a topic of both philosophy and political science. However let me explain it in a simple layman language as the purpose is to make oursleves clear to find a solution.

You see whether it is Pashtuns or any other nationality, people of various religions, points of views, ideologies and schools of thought live in a country.

The basic principle which has been agreed upon by most philosophers, thinkers, religious reformers, moralists, humanists, etc is Justice. A system has to be base do justice.

Now the only way humanity has discovered so far to have justice in a human society is to have elect certain people which in their opinion can do legislation in a way to do justice to the population of that country.

It is a social contract between the electors and the elected to bestow the authority to their elected representatives according to their will and do legislation which should give a happy prosperous and peaceful progressive developed life style to the inhabitants of the country ensuring their basic human rights plus opportunities for a honest living in addition to contributing to the wellbeing and welfare of their nation and humanity at large.

The executive can execute the laws enacted in the legislative body and if there is any dispute over any issue a judiciary will do its utmost strive to do justice. Now due to the evolution of technology media is also becoming the fourth pillar of a state. The basic theme sii that people should not be ruled against their will, there should be no injustice or exploitation, life and money and respect has to be safeguarded by the state.

The basic rights have to be provided by a state. Difference of opinion has to be respected and tolerated. Everybody should have the right and freedom of exercising his life according to his thoughts and beliefs as long as it does not endangers the lives of others. This framework of a modern state. If Muslims are in majority and they think that their system can ensure justice and basic human rights to the inhabitants of the state then they should be given the opportunity to rule and the same is the case with other ideologies.

The basic thing is that any system which ensure justice and human progress,proposperty,development and better life with basic human rights and needs both material like food,sherlter,clothing,medicines etc as well as spiritual like freedom of expression, freedom of religion /ideology, freedom of expression, freedom to opt for a certain career ,to learn knowledge, freedom to have equal rights on human level etc should be adopted and the evolution of history has taught us after a lot of experimentation about this type of system which are being in practice partially or fully in various countries of the world in various degrees.

If someone, some nation or some group has better solution to achieving these goals or even better ones, the they should start convincing the intelligentsia of humanity about their point of view.

I propose the same system for Pashtuns and Afghans as they are not some extra terrestrial creatures who have honored planet earth with their blessed arrival from some part of the galaxy or nebula.

First of all in order to achieve all these things, a country should be free and liberated from foreign control, exploitaition and imperialism.
Nowadays we don't have control over our own countries. The west controls our countries directly and indirectly since the time of colonialism. They wants us to change our values and way of life and become godless as them. They never want real democracy in our countries, because if there is real democracy the majority of muslims would choose to live under Shariah and in an Islamic state. Furtheremore the muslims would be independent and sovereign and they won't be able to exploit our wealth and resources and impose their way of life upon us. So the only way to liberate us from these shackles of slavery and dictatorship, is to fight for the freedom first, there should be a civil uprising. That's the way how the European countries achieved their freedom and self-determination and sovereignty, America did the same. Only after a country is liberated and is sovereign, there can be laws and order in the society and a government by and for the people. Only when there is truly peace in a society, then a society can prosper and advance its ecomical, social and other needs. Only then will the lives, honour and wealth of the muslim ummah be save and we will achieve power to deter the enemies of muslims and Islam attacking us and enslaving us. The ideal state for the muslim Ummah is the Khilafah, they will be truly united in a Khilafah.