Has anyone read the Quran?

[3.14159265...]

Alchemist, what do you mean? What is your take on those verses? Is it about those who must hide their religion as shamla said?

I read that part and found it interesting, I want to hear your input. By the way it is not the only verse telling believers to be peaceful with those who are peaceful even if disbelievers. That one however is interesting because it gives a reason for why a believer may choose to fight anyway.

I could be wrong, I am here to discuss it. Bring your opinion forth with the same amount of sincerity as I do.

[Azad Khel]

Given 4:94-96 how can anyone as a good muslim treat me badly when I always state that mine is the path of peace and have proven it on many occasions? Why don't scholars go out and declare fatwas regarding the peaceloving disbelievers? This part of your religion affects me, and I see nothing but hypocrisy in the muslim world regarding this. Further the reason for this is also stated therein I.e. worldly gain. How can you be a followers of an honurable path when you mistreat nonbelievers if you feel the grips of power leaving you albeit peacfully?

The reference to the person in these ayahs was not a peace loving disbeliever, in fact he was a believer hiding his faith due to fear as he was residing in the area where the believers in minority or he was the only believer.
The killing of disbelievers is not allowed in the normal circumstances except war. IZA DHRABTUM FI SABEELILLAHI…………means here for fighting or keeping an eye on the movement of the enemy. The following hadit explains the same:

Al-Hafiz Abu Bakr Al-Bazzar recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "The Messenger of Allah sent a military expedition under the authority of Al-Miqdad bin Al-Aswad and when they reached the designated area, they found the people had dispersed. However, a man with a lot of wealth did not leave and said, `I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.' Yet, Al-Miqdad killed him, and a man said to him, `You killed a man after he proclaimed: "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah. By Allah I will mention what you did to the Prophet .' When they went back to the Messenger of Allah, they said, `O Messenger of Allah! Al-Miqdad killed a man who testified that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah.' He said,

«ادْعُوا لِيَ الْمِقْدَادَ، يَا مِقْدَادُ أَقَتَلْتَ رَجُلًا يَقُولُ: لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَكَيْفَ لَكَ بِلَا إِلهَ إِلَّا اللهُ غَدًا؟»

(Summon Al-Miqdad before me. O Miqdad! Did you kill a man who proclaimed, "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah" What would you do when you face, "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah tomorrow") Allah then revealed;

[يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ إِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ أَلْقَى إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَـمَ لَسْتَ مُؤْمِناً تَبْتَغُونَ عَرَضَ الْحَيَوةِ الدُّنْيَا فَعِنْدَ اللَّهِ مَغَانِمُ كَثِيرَةٌ كَذلِكَ كُنتُمْ مِّن قَبْلُ فَمَنَّ اللَّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ]

(O you who believe! When you go (to fight) in the cause of Allah, verify (the truth), and say not to anyone who greets you: "You are not a believer;'' seeking the perishable goods of the worldly life. There are much more profits and booties with Allah. Even as he is now, so were you yourselves before till Allah conferred on you His Favors, therefore, be cautious in discrimination).

[Manzareh]

I think 3.34325321.. has missed the concept. soppose you pick up a random book, you read the whole thing, you understand the language but dont understand the stories in the book..you havent really read it then have you? to understand the book you have to understand the author, the book that youv read will be no use to you and nothing more than empty words without understand the author and talking to people that do understand the book. its the same thing with the Quran.

[Alchemist]

Alchemist, what do you mean? What is your take on those verses? Is it about those who must hide their religion as shamla said?

I read that part and found it interesting, I want to hear your input. By the way it is not the only verse telling believers to be peaceful with those who are peaceful even if disbelievers. That one however is interesting because it gives a reason for why a believer may choose to fight anyway.

I could be wrong, I am here to discuss it. Bring your opinion forth with the same amount of sincerity as I do.

The only acceptable religion for Allah is Islam [3:19].

If you are implying the a believer may chose to fight for worldly gains and thus act heedlessly, then this is possible, however, that believer should rather want his gains in the hereafter.

Ofcourse, you don't believe in the hereafter, or Allah, so in the hereafter. So if you want to discuss anything, it should be your disbelief. Any argument you might for being a kafar, it's answer is in the Qur'an. So if you are sincere, then you would discuss what you can't believe...such as the obvious truth at the world has been created by The Creator. You and I have already discussed at lenght about the ontology of the sciences, and you've already admitted that religious truth remain true, whereas, scientific truths have been known to more false, than true. Keeping in mind, that the subject of the Qur'an, is man, viz-a-viz Muhammed, peace be upon him.

[3.14159265...]

Alchemist: What?

[ScimitarXEdge]

yeah dude, what?

[Alchemist]

pi ...i don't have time for your theatrics..

[Abeille]

Do you have to believe in the Quran in order to understand?

[randolph85]

Do you have to believe in the Quran in order to understand?

if you don't believe in it, then its just a book to a person rather than a holy book. but even so, reading it can turn the person into a believer and thus make it holy to them. as for understanding, it depends on the kind of understanding u are looking for.

[Alchemist]

Do you have to believe in the Quran in order to understand?

Have you heard of Plato's dividing line?


Because if you review it, you will see how belief and understanding are related.

[3.14159265...]

I looked it up Alchemist.

I don't see the relation between the divided line analogy and your position. Can you make it simpler for me by explaining what the relation is?

[Alchemist]

I looked it up Alchemist.

I don't see the relation between the divided line analogy and your position. Can you make it simpler for me by explaining what the relation is?

PLATO’ S DIVIDED LINE


My post was addressed to Albeille, and it was in regards to the relationship between BELIEF and UNDERSTANDING.

I already posted for you something simpler than that to digest. But it seems like I am now too advanced for you. All you keep asking from me is to make things easier and easier for you... do I have to draw pictures for you? Or are you not used to thinking too deeply and critically? Perhaps this subject is beyound your comprehension pi...leave it be.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Trying to explain belief to an atheist as a muslim by relying on Plato is like trying to sell drugs while being a police officer.

[Abeille]

I take it that only a Muslim can understand the Quran?

If so, that is like saying: only those who have the Holy Ghost can understand why Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God and the Holy Ghost. How can you understand what the Trinity is if one of the three is the Holy Ghost, something which you need in the first place in order to understand the Trinity? It is circular.

As such, how can I understand the Quran if I first need to be a believer, and how do I become a believer when the base of Islam is the Quran? Without understanding the Quran, unless I first become a believer, and if the requirement to understand the Quran is to be a believer, then I will never become a believer? It is circular.

There must be alternative way; otherwise, religion, its base and its foundation is susceptible to mockery. Or is it that those who follow it blindly think it is the only way to be a believer because they took the leap of faith? If so, then this leaves another important issue to be solved: which religion is correct, if blind leap of faith is a requirement in order to become a believer?


I am supposing that you are not suggesting us to test the waters of every religion in order to find the correct one?

Coming back to my original question: do we need to be a believer in order to understand the Quran?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I take it that only a Muslim can understand the Quran?

Thats not true. There are many Muslims who don't understand Qur'an becuase they try to understand it by relying on established standard approaches to analyse books learned from secular sciences.

Similarly disbelievers fall into the same trap when they use the method they developed to understand Harry Potter novels when they try to understand qur'an.

There is a specific science of interpreting Qur'an.

If you want to learn more about the subject, please read this: saheefah.org