Why

[khyaal]

Zalmiya! Wali khan was the leader of the opposition when he willlingly signed the 1973 constitution without even recording his note of dissent about the occupation of Attock and Mianwali and their merger with Punjab. The merger of Southern Pakhtunkhwa with Qalat States Union and the merger of Attock and Mianwali were no ordinary events. What justification then we have for blaming Taimur Shah?

Even today they demand for the merger of the semi-autonomous tribal region with Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, part of main land Pakistan, but have never demanded for the union of Southen Pakhtunkwha with our land.

[khyaal]

Perhaps you know about the fact that Sindhi was made the official language of Sindh exploiting that same provision in the 1973 constitution but Wali Khan led NAP adopted Urdu as the official language of NWFP.

[Toramana]

Yes, Mr Khayal there would be the grand loy Afghanistan where the values of the bygone days including the deviant freedom would reflourish. You may like to relish in your grand utopia/romance as much as you can but ANP and Wali Khan never had anything to do to block the materialization of that dream of yours.

[Fahd]

when i think of th wars and why this happend i just know
Everything is planned since >>>>!!!
jews they control this world and cotrol any thing else afghanistan
they will never can
where s sangar ????

[Fahd]

dame did i post in politics ohhhhhhhh ****
sorry but when i saw shadow posts i just forgot evry thing :P

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Zalmiya! Wali khan was the leader of the opposition when he willlingly signed the 1973 constitution without even recording his note of dissent about the occupation of Attock and Mianwali and their merger with Punjab. The merger of Southern Pakhtunkhwa with Qalat States Union and the merger of Attock and Mianwali were no ordinary events. What justification then we have for blaming Taimur Shah?

Even today they demand for the merger of the semi-autonomous tribal region with Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, part of main land Pakistan, but have never demanded for the union of Southen Pakhtunkwha with our land.

Southern Pashtunkhwa and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa politics are well understood by everyone here. There's an ideological drift between the ANP and the PMAP. The ego of the former is too big to have any sort of equality with anyone. Even in Karachi, Shahi Syed and Irfanullah Marwat cannot unite to work for the interests of Pashtuns because their egos would get hurt in the process. Furthermore, the establishment (army+feudal lords+other power holders) would never allow the redrawing of the provincial boundaries to accommodate ethnic groups - especially us. That will never happen unless millions come out on the streets. They will for the price of flour and sugar but not this.

The masses of Pashtunkhwa (north, south, east and west) have never been rallied and mobilized for the pan-Pashtun cause primarily because, especially in FATA and other areas, the influence of the clerics and the pro-Pakistani Islamic ideology is strong. Religious-loyalties have dumbed us down and I'll be the first one to admit that. We, the educated few, are 'aware'. The masses, by and large, have neither supported secession nor real autonomy. They don't care about Attock and Mianwali. Perhaps someone can prove me wrong here but this is the impression I live with.

Perhaps you know about the fact that Sindhi was made the official language of Sindh exploiting that same provision in the 1973 constitution but Wali Khan led NAP adopted Urdu as the official language of NWFP.

There were language riots in Sindh. There was nothing of the sort in Pashtunkhwa. The two situations cannot be compared. Don't get me wrong, I'll be the last person in the world to apologize on the Pakistani state's behalf but the two provinces cannot be compared as far as this language issue is concerned. A 90%+ Sindhi province became a place where only half the inhabitants remained Sindhi because of partition and the refugees. They were lucky they had a nationalist prime minister in office. Despite that, by the way, there's no Sindhi here outside the interior of Sindh - Karachi, Hyderabad, Larkana and other urban areas of Sindh are more Mumbai than Umar Kot.

[parsiwaan]

Parsiwan, you are on my warning list. I rather not loose my cool with you or I will show you what tyou b*** b**** goon are all about. I cannot recall any sophesticated Tajik, even from yesterday, all I can think of is Fahim , Abdullah x 2, and the dancing boys of the north. Pashtun will beat you in any field any day, zoya. There is nothing sophesticated about you, I beg you not to jump on Sa'aadi's shoulder or some next poet from the 13th or 16th century, you people love that since you have nothing to show for. I dare you not to take a Western oreintalist view why we Pashtuns are fighting foreigners and your boy-player warlords.

ahhaah your getting made cause i show you the truth. Abdullah and Fahim are product of Pashtons imposed war, we have to safe guard Afghanistan or your pashtons brothers would have made it 5th provinces of Pakistan. Check Pashton bulldog Owis Ghani then governor of Balochistan interview with Pakistani defense journal in 1998, he was states “Pakistan has achieve a lot in 50 years of creation, to the point that we have a colony today in Afghanistan.”
Or check the recent Al Jazeri documentary about how US is buying Shinwari tribes in Nangarhar to keep Taliban at bay… and yet they fight each other over money. Forget about US Parsiban, Hazara, Uzbaks, Balochs and others… tell us why you Pashtons always brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan?

[Fahd]

ahhaah your getting made cause i show you the truth. Abdullah and Fahim are product of Pashtons imposed war, we have to safe guard Afghanistan or your pashtons brothers would have made it 5th provinces of Pakistan. Check Pashton bulldog Owis Ghani then governor of Balochistan interview with Pakistani defense journal in 1998, he was states “Pakistan has achieve a lot in 50 years of creation, to the point that we have a colony today in Afghanistan.”
Or check the recent Al Jazeri documentary about how US is buying Shinwari tribes in Nangarhar to keep Taliban at bay… and yet they fight each other over money. Forget about US Parsiban, Hazara, Uzbaks, Balochs and others… tell us why you Pashtons always brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan?

watch ur mouth again
we always defend afg in all wars
u and uzpek become proud afghans because of us
if u said to some im afg he will say
wow u ppl are brave (and he don't know that u r one of those US pussys )
if u want to say bad things i will always saying that about u
i have parsiwan friends and i love them like ma brothers but u r not afg
u r Client for USA

[Fish]

ahhaah your getting made cause i show you the truth. Abdullah and Fahim are product of Pashtons imposed war, we have to safe guard Afghanistan or your pashtons brothers would have made it 5th provinces of Pakistan. Check Pashton bulldog Owis Ghani then governor of Balochistan interview with Pakistani defense journal in 1998, he was states “Pakistan has achieve a lot in 50 years of creation, to the point that we have a colony today in Afghanistan.”
Or check the recent Al Jazeri documentary about how US is buying Shinwari tribes in Nangarhar to keep Taliban at bay… and yet they fight each other over money. Forget about US Parsiban, Hazara, Uzbaks, Balochs and others… tell us why you Pashtons always brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan?

Parsiban,

I am an Afghan from Afghanistan and don't get me started with your history and those people you are defending.

Today Afghanistan is going through war and misery not only because of Pashtuns, but because of every other ethnic group as well. I knew from the beginning that you are only on this forum to spread hatred not only between Pashtuns, but to force Pashtuns to hate other ethnic groups as well.

Let me remind you that your Setami idealogy will not work here or anywhere else in Afghanistan. Pashtunistan will be united with Afghanistan whether you like it or not. Afghanistan will also have the Northern regions of Afghanistan as part of greater Afghanistan whether you like it or not.

What we face in Afghanistan today is the fault of our leaders not the people. In the other hand we have people like yourself who either pretend to be from Afghanistan or in the name of Afghan spreading hatred.

Fahim, Abdullahx2, Dostum, Mohaqiq, Khallili, Masoud, Qanoni, Rabani and etc are no different from Mullah Omar, Sayaf, Hekmatyar, Ahmadzai, and etc. Each one of these individuals had or are symbols/puppets of foreigners.

The Northern Alliance war against Taliban had nothing to do with Afghanistan becoming the fifth province of Pakistan. We can counter this arguement and say that the Taliban were fighting against the Northern Alliance to stop Afghanistan from becoming another republic of the Russians and Iran.

Your arguement is based on emotions, but let me remind you the ground reality tells us something else.

[ComradePashtun]

You have that skewed view of history probably twisted by you to make yourself comfortable in your thoughts with regard to Pashtun unity. The fact is, Shah Shuja once tried to sell you people as well by striking a deal with both British Raj and Maharaja Ranjit Singh whereby he would play the role of a second fiddle in return for limited sovereignty.

Don't forget that till 1920, they were all amirs with only internal autonomy with no sovereignty in external matters.

By the way, the freedom also was not entirely due to guts of the Pashtuns of your side. It was more due to imperial convenience. British during 19th Century had decided there would be 3 folds of their Indian frontier; NWFP (Khyber Pukhtunkhwa) the first fold, Khyber Pukhtunkhwa the second fold, and the rest of the Afghan land the thirld fold (so the imperial term the three fold frontier). They had decided that there would be direct British rule over Pukhtunkhwa, indirect rule over FATA through political department of the British Raj, and internal autonomy to the rest of the Afghan land with external matters in the hands of the Britis. That is why every Afghan amir received stipend from the British Empire (so they in a way sold you as well) till the end.

Don't give yourself much credit while discrediting others.

I don'r seek comfort for the sake of comfort in what I argue specifically. And what you are rumbling on is out of context. The fact is that our own history tells alot more about Shah Shuja than I would want to learn about him from you. I have no where defended him and nor have I compared the guts of Pashtuns from one or the other side. However, if I wanted to than other than the some tribes such as Wazirs Maseeds I will through your paranoid inward looking aas out on the scale.

My concern with history unlike you is beyond looking at imperial temrs which one could argue is even appended with your staus even as we speak. I read history with immense pride, Toramana. My pride with the history and accomplishment of my forefathers is not to set scores with you brother, and nor is to discredit you. If I have, hold me liable if you have evidence for it. Infact, had you not been deposed with "me" and "you" and "we", "you" - I would have no right to defend what I have to. How you argue projects your state of mind.

I argue and 90% historians would also argue that as you would also state "not by design" yes the three fold frintier was also not something the Brits had by design, coined terms, especially political terms mean crap, that is essential in the realm of history and studying history. Ask a historian. But again, this might be, I quote you "have that skewed view of history probably twisted by you to make yourself comfortable in your thoughts..". It is quire pathetic for this to come from you.

As for the term "sold", i used it as counterfactual to Ijaz's line of arguement, I did not come up with it.

Credits are due, in many cases to those wily Amirs by the way who atleast beat Imperial Britain in three wars, never alowed us to be subjugated to any one and blessed us with Afghansitan. Afghanistan that if we join hands as brothers will help us regain all what we have lost.

[ComradePashtun]

I am flushing out impersonators who use deceptive Pashtun nicks on this Forum but they come out of their hideouts of fake identity with a bang when their " Kind" gets exposed. Will you deliniate on the " offence" I committed, nonetheless I reserve the right to pay one in the same coin.
Btw, are you telling me that we opted or voted to be sold? ~ and don't you think that our destiny with the Firingis put us on the political chessboard to throw away the yoke. The bad luck brought us to the political arena and hence political activism ensued in Pakhtunkhwa for almost a century.Pakhtuns emerged as anti-imperialists and committed to the creed of Pakhtun nationalism. The freedom movement instilled political vigour and segacity in the common Pakhtun of a village, contrary to a non-political stalemate under dictators in Afghanistan. Do you think a despotic rule and apolitical society would gladly invite such " disruptionists" in the fold?

Ijaz Yousufzai,

If you are refering to me as, then you are wrong. I am clear in my view and I don't need to imperonate. Just challenge it and I would love to learn, I pledge this solemnly. What is my "kind"?

You see hot airs and pure emotional fruf don't help. Read respected Levanay Zalmay's post about the Pashtun nationalism and political activism in that regard. Kindly do. So far I have had many diparate views on history from you guys, some of you say some one else sold you, some of you say that for nearly 200 years you were independent of Kabul, some say you were subjugated, you say onething on political activism, some say Bd Shah Khan prefered Urdu over Pashtu, some say Daal and wheat will mobilise Pashtun in their millions to come out to the street than haveing the entire Pashtun region as a one unitary unit in Pakistan... and the contridictions go on! I am myself confused, and this is exactly I question what I do.

"To know that one is in a certain condition, in a certain state, is already a process of liberation. But a man who is not aware of his condition, of his struggle, tries to be something other than he is, which brings about a habit. So, then, let us keep in mind examine what is to observe and what be aware of exactly what is the actual, without giving it a slant, without giving it an interpretation."

[ComradePashtun]

ahhaah your getting made cause i show you the truth. Abdullah and Fahim are product of Pashtons imposed war, we have to safe guard Afghanistan or your pashtons brothers would have made it 5th provinces of Pakistan. Check Pashton bulldog Owis Ghani then governor of Balochistan interview with Pakistani defense journal in 1998, he was states “Pakistan has achieve a lot in 50 years of creation, to the point that we have a colony today in Afghanistan.”
Or check the recent Al Jazeri documentary about how US is buying Shinwari tribes in Nangarhar to keep Taliban at bay… and yet they fight each other over money. Forget about US Parsiban, Hazara, Uzbaks, Balochs and others… tell us why you Pashtons always brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan?

Parsiwan,

Not at all, why would I get mad at you. That bulldog is as wrong as you are. I am telling you that had the course of event rolled on without the U.S. intervention today we would be having a different debate on the very faith of Pakistan. Pakistan's intervention in out country has been a colossal failure from their own valuation. Which Pakistani foreign policy objective in your view were met, you highness? Not some transient gains on form or the other? What is a colony, Parsiwana? I will look in to that journal and what that bulldog had to say.

On the other note; the real bulldog that is Fahim is your political elite, and so is that izak Abdullah x 2. Fahim grade-6, Ismael Khan grade-6, Fahim boy-player warlords an illiterate ex Khad driver.. is your best. I think your preffered choice of defending Afghanistan will also remain the worse for Afghanistan considering that Kangaroo looking hero of your's had to loose his life while on the run, and your Fahim and Abdullah x 2 would soon have surrendered to Taliban in their mountain holes.

There has been two periods of socio-political upheal in the modern Afghan history. The first time was when a bandit bache Saqaw took power that led to anarchy and (your words) "brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan". The second time was also the duo-Rabani-Massoud. In both these eras Parsiwans and Hazaras turned their guns on each in a cycle of violence other for the second position, untill Pashtuns had to restore and establish political order. Uzbaks and Parsiwan warlords are still vying for power against each other. You have no right to speak on others' behalf, when you have the approval then come and I will take you serious.

[parsiwaan]

Parsiwan,

Not at all, why would I get mad at you. That bulldog is as wrong as you are. I am telling you that had the course of event rolled on without the U.S. intervention today we would be having a different debate on the very faith of Pakistan. Pakistan's intervention in out country has been a colossal failure from their own valuation. Which Pakistani foreign policy objective in your view were met, you highness? Not some transient gains on form or the other? What is a colony, Parsiwana? I will look in to that journal and what that bulldog had to say.

You should check the meaning of colony, also try to take a look at 19 century British empires policy of popping up Emires in Islamic country... the Emaraat itself means a colony. The fact is Afghanistan was almost inside Pakistani stomach, thanks go 9/11 and US intervention it was taken out of daal eaters mouth... I think I still have the article(need to check my other hard desk) by a Pakistani Pashton on frontiers post...on how Pakistan need to "build infrastructure" of Afghanistan... Habib Bank, need to open brunches, WPDA need to developed the dams, and to send unemployed Pakistani pashtons to "build the agriculture" of north and central Afghanistan. The fact is Pakistan actively used Pashtons to weaken and destroy Afghanistan and almost all pashton were for it… as long as it was a Pashtons hold some chair in Kabul… it does not matter who were behind the scene.. British, soviet or even the Faqir cultureless Pakis.

On the other note; the real bulldog that is Fahim is your political elite, and so is that izak Abdullah x 2. Fahim grade-6, Ismael Khan grade-6, Fahim boy-player warlords an illiterate ex Khad driver.. is your best. I think your preffered choice of defending Afghanistan will also remain the worse for Afghanistan considering that Kangaroo looking hero of your's had to loose his life while on the run, and your Fahim and Abdullah x 2 would soon have surrendered to Taliban in their mountain holes.

Fahim is a dog but so is Gulbodin and Mullah omar... the issue is not these people... the issue is that a pashtons is always "good", "brave", "heroic" - his actions are irrelevant. If mullah omar orders the killing of non-pashtons in Shamili valley, then its for national unity, if pashtun Taliban rapes an Uzbek and Tajik girl(check Sahar Shah documentry) and if his groups bombs ancient artifacts, it's "a grace" and a "good deed for the nation and for Islam". But if a Non-Pashtons defends his God-given rights, identity, and honor, he becomes a "traitor", "illiterate ex Khad driver" whats so diff between Fahim and Gul Mahmmad khan e Mommand who is called "baba" by you guys. Was he not a illiterate Britsh agent bend to destroy the national unity of Afghanistan?

There has been two periods of socio-political upheal in the modern Afghan history. The first time was when a bandit bache Saqaw took power that led to anarchy and (your words) "brought unbelievable tragedies not only on youself but whole Afghanistan". The second time was also the duo-Rabani-Massoud. In both these eras Parsiwans and Hazaras turned their guns on each in a cycle of violence other for the second position, untill Pashtuns had to restore and establish political order. Uzbaks and Parsiwan warlords are still vying for power against each other. You have no right to speak on others' behalf, when you have the approval then come and I will take you serious.

You need to admit that it was Pashton hakmatyaar that was firing 2000 rockets a day on Kabul and in process destroyed Kabul…it was Pakistan that was preventing their proxy rocketYar to fight…while Iran were encouraging Hazara. Yea if Massod was Pashtons then it will be completely different ball game... but even then i bet ur Pakistani masters would have find another excuse to unleashed their dogs to destroy Afghanistan... "kabul must be burn" policy of Zaiullahq was being implemented with pashtons of Pashtonistan in driving seat of this policy. Massod had to fight... he had no other choice and everyone agrees that Massod was detested by pakistan for he was way independent and would not become a proxy like Omar or Hakmatyar.

[ComradePashtun]

Parsiwan a more sound and objective evaluations, plaease.

Every intervention in another state for what ever aim, has its own policy aims and the means through which that objective/ends is pursued. I agree with you on our reliance on Pakistan at the time and how much our politics was integrated, but we were still a fire that we rather entered in to the belly of Pakistan than a Qabili Palaw. Pakistan was hedging its bets on Taliban to large extend. Islam and faith has been core in Pashtun political revival historiacally. Pakistan was running out of money itself and couldn't develop itself, and educate yourself and relationship with Taliban was also deteriorating. Every time when Pakistan is in crisis the military walks in, and it was about time that Pakistan had to redefine its relationship and policies towards Taliban Afghanistan. Can't you decipher why Musharaf was vehementaly anti-Taliban? Forget about some of those Pakis' wet dreams. I ask you again to tell me what a colony is in your own words, not a 19th centur dictionary.

Pakistan's relations with Massoud and Hekmatyar, both who received their initial terrorist trainings from them were one based on the fact Hekmatyar was a Pashtun and Pakistan was liable to have him friendly. It also has to do with thier ideologies. Massoud simply remained out of favour and his vhemence for Pakistan was due to the fact that Pakistan had to be on the side of his foes - not that he was opposed to foreign involvement. Massoud's terrorist career started under ISI tutelage. On another note; Pakistan relations with certain Pashtun groups are also out of complusion as may be a choice.

Ok, Hekmatyar had his share in the destruction of Kabul. And most of the information about his destruction also remains by and large from the only sources of media controlled by Ranbani's illigitimate government. Lets look at it this way. Why are areas which were controlled by Hekmatyar more destroyed and shelled than ones held by Massoud's forces? The worse destroyed parts of Kabul are central-east and eastern parts. The rest remained thriving and intact then.

My reponses to you are in proportion to your western orientalist views of Pashtuns. I am not drawing any comparison between Gulbadin, Omar and Fahim etc. The matter of the fact is that your elites to this date are still warlords and most of the Tajiks areas such as Takhar and Kudoz are still raven by Bacha Baz warlords. Other than the security concerns, the major spoilers are mainly warlords in the current transition period - and I am not going to say where they and in which ethnic groups they remain dominant and concentrate to the highest level, which speaks volume *cough* *cough*.. the sophesitcation and the culture etc. Exxxxxxxxxxxxxxcuse me. The worse Pashtun minister is better than Abdullah and Fahim.

You are only alowed to evaluate and judge Pashtun war time leaders from analysing the dynamics of Afghan politics only. Since Massoud himself had to draw foreign support in his own aims. We even know about the infamous treaties with the Russians durring the invaion. He even wrote a letter to CIA before his demise begging for help, despite that he was anti-American at a point. Well obviously he had to keep it sweet with the Ruskies.

I don't buy in to your ethnicsing everything and for that you got answer for speaking for every one in my previous post. Wouldn't you agree that each time we had Tajik who wasn't suited to run the country it led cycle of violence and all the bad lucks?

[khyaal]

Its just sad Pashtuns on both sides of the border are suffering.

But you never suffered. You belong to the co-opted class.