NaPak Army killing innocent civilians in Waziristan

[Shehbaz Khan]

you should think of your ,,altaap bhai,,,.

Do,nt defend the evil state of pakistan.
pakistan is responssible for the killing of every afghan and pashtun.
Pakistan brought the west to this region.
So pakistan is directly respossible for the destruction of pashtunkhwa and afghanistan.
I hope ,,modi,,,will bomb the kahota plant located near pindi to clear the region from terrorism.
The world must unite to stop pakistani terrorism on pashtun and afghan soil.

OK

[Shehbaz Khan]

BarakzaiAbdali:

You're right while talking about the problems how it started. Agreed it started. What I was discussing with Khushal was the solution. And the solution is the same as I said it earlier. Both govts should sit together and promise that we won't play any wars on each other's land. And Pakistan must start development of Waziristan, I get it when you say why are they treated differently. Totally agreed. But to say that Pakistan is doing this totally for money, even today is wrong. The rulers might have done this for money in the past but today we aren't today even Pakistan is feeling the same pain due to it's wrong policies. The Lieutenant General who is incharge of the operation in Waziristan sent his own son to the battlefield now tell me more about how much he is doing it for money and don't tell me that nothing will happen to him as this is the first war in history when soldier to officer ration is 7:1 for every seven soldiers one officer died. Pakistan is paying a price for it. Afghan agencies also did what Pakistan did to the extent they could. And I am not going to make lame statements I referred him to a book The Terrorist Prince by Raja Anwar. So both sides played these games.

We can either keep whining about how it started or we can look at our present situation, get a little serious and look for a solution. And the first step will be accepting our share of mistakes!

[khushal]

the solution is to get out. your killing the people that you used.

[Shehbaz Khan]

We are killing rats that are messing with our cities, airports etc etc etc.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

The solution is to bomb them even more,With the People already shifted out of NW,Since today was the last day.

From Tomorrow Ground troops will start the operation with occasional Strikes from Pakistani Drones.

[khushal]

We are killing rats that are messing with our cities, airports etc etc etc.

people that you used as cannon fodder are reacting back and rightfully so. You should be ashamed but you have no shame and you have no conscience, you are making excuses and defending munafiquat.

[Shehbaz Khan]

Two wrongs never make a right.

[Pakwatan]

They killed innocent people. Any sympathies I ever had for TTP are now gone. I hope they are destroyed just like Nawaz Shareef's government. Imaanah

[BarakzaiAbdali]

We are killing rats that are messing with our cities, airports etc etc etc.

Re-read what was written above. A rat or a cockroach is a sort of sneaky creature - one that works under the cover of night and merely is survival oriented.

Now who is more of a rat... a Pakistani ISI agent/Pakistani military/Pakistani citizen willingly with the wool over their eyes that send young boys off to die for their objectives in Afghanistan so that other young boys from abroad can kill them with arms shipped over Pak Water and Land territory (all the while parasitically hitting money off these powers)?

Who is more of a rat... the military that knowingly announces its coming operations knowing full well that either the TTP or Haqqani or others have a multitude of other places across Pakistan to take refuge in... and then they destroy the life, liberty and property of the FATA people so that the money flow continues that props up their Karachi stockmarket and economy?

No, my friend, the one that speaks openly is not a rat or a cockroach - but the feudal lords and military dictators of Pakistan are rats and cockroaches with masters degrees and PhDs in Pashtun Killing and propagandizing to justify this.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Two wrongs never make a right.

Really? Go to a Pashtun's home and speak ill of his mother or sisters and or hit him and see of his view of badal suits your governmental backing excuses of "two wrongs do not make a right."

So basically, the Pak Askaraano and lackeys are allowed to play fast and loose with the lives of Pashtuns who are zealous in loving their brothers and freedom and and they are allowed to speak through both sides of their mouth, and they are allowed to kill endlessly yet anyone that responds in kind is following the precept of "two wrongs do not make a right?"

That is absurd and against any aspect of human nature. If you walk into a whiskey bar in America or a university in London or a house in Pakistan, human beings are all the same - they respond in kind to what they see is injustice and oppression.

A true honest leader would have done the following, he would have not propagandized against the FATA people - he would have gotten on the TV and addressed the nation honestly and frankly about the interests and threats to his nation regarding possible war etc. He should be clear and make it apparent that a far more powerful force was going to be coming in and that Armitage had threatened Pakistan. He should have then laid the choice at the feet of the Pakistani people across the country as to what they wanted to do and that way any and all people would at least have said that such a person was honest and upfront with all of his citizens so that the decision was made collectively.

Instead of thinking with justice based precepts and principles, people like you and Bannu Mazdigar are sitting high and dry with internet access 24 hours a day in a country with massive wealth disparity. In your arrogant view, you know what is best for the tribal people and they have no idea of what is best for themselves. You ignore their history and their heritage simply because the Pakistani people are assaulted day in and day out with jingoist propaganda that somehow makes a crooked person like Benazir Bhutto into a martyr and turns Musharraf into a nation saviour.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Really? Go to a Pashtun's home and speak ill of his mother or sisters and or hit him and see of his view of badal suits your governmental backing excuses of "two wrongs do not make a right."

So basically, the Pak Askaraano and lackeys are allowed to play fast and loose with the lives of Pashtuns who are zealous in loving their brothers and freedom and and they are allowed to speak through both sides of their mouth, and they are allowed to kill endlessly yet anyone that responds in kind is following the precept of "two wrongs do not make a right?"

That is absurd and against any aspect of human nature. If you walk into a whiskey bar in America or a university in London or a house in Pakistan, human beings are all the same - they respond in kind to what they see is injustice and oppression.

A true honest leader would have done the following, he would have not propagandized against the FATA people - he would have gotten on the TV and addressed the nation honestly and frankly about the interests and threats to his nation regarding possible war etc. He should be clear and make it apparent that a far more powerful force was going to be coming in and that Armitage had threatened Pakistan. He should have then laid the choice at the feet of the Pakistani people across the country as to what they wanted to do and that way any and all people would at least have said that such a person was honest and upfront with all of his citizens so that the decision was made collectively.

Instead of thinking with justice based precepts and principles, people like you and Bannu Mazdigar are sitting high and dry with internet access 24 hours a day in a country with massive wealth disparity. In your arrogant view, you know what is best for the tribal people and they have no idea of what is best for themselves. You ignore their history and their heritage simply because the Pakistani people are assaulted day in and day out with jingoist propaganda that somehow makes a crooked person like Benazir Bhutto into a martyr and turns Musharraf into a nation saviour.

Your concerns are justified But if i may ask one question

If Pakistani's doesn't want shariah,Neither do they want to end its alliance with American/West which TTP has put as the prime reason why they are against the state despite claiming to be extremely patriotic and ready to fight for Pakistan.

What choice Pakistan has apart from bombing them?Ofcourse Pakistan is a poor country and no evacuation process would be perfect.At the end of the day,These taliban's are keeping FATA in stone age.

After operation the Govt plan's to invest 38Billion PKR for the development of FATA which is a Huge amount if we consider 110Billion development funds of KPK.Universities are planned in FATA and a Medical college is being setup in bajaur agency.The uplitf of the people of FATA will ensure that they won't be used up as raw material for TTP and other militant organization suicide blasts compaign

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=324831754339665&set=vb.244238615732313&type=2&theater

[Zubr-Zubr]

Nawaz have forgotten or do not know the history of Waziristan. Freedom-loving Waziristans Pashtun tribes throughout its history has preserved the independence from any government system (in structure of Afghanistan, as part of British India). The Punjabis foolish to expect that their armies will be able to change something and make the tribal Waziristan to integrate into Pakistani society and the state, just as it did the Baloch. Waziristan not Balochistan and not Sindh. Waziristan would not change his freedom. "Freedom or death". Waziristans Pashtuns will always be guided by this principle. Even if Islamabad is the hundred years war in the tribal areas Punjabis will not be able to win.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Your concerns are justified But if i may ask one question

If Pakistani's doesn't want shariah,


You are speaking out of thin air, and your jingoism and brain washing by the Pakistani military-media complex is guiding your conclusions instead of your scientific training. This means you have no evidence for the above statement. I do, however, have evidence to the contrary from a high impact factor source:

This was a large sample size multi nation survey done across the Muslim world:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec/

The executive summary makes sure to note:

Yet 84% of Pakistani Muslims favor enshrining sharia as official law.

It goes on to discuss the details of what this means lest you try to wriggle out of this and claim this is idealism and not a practical goal of these 84% folks:

In chapter 2, religion and politics, the survey folks ask about the role of a religious leader in politics and Pakistani in the majority felt as follows:

In South Asia, a large majority in Afghanistan (82%) and Bangladesh (69%) believe religious leaders ought to influence political matters, while 54% of Pakistani Muslims agree. Afghan Muslims are the most likely among the populations surveyed to say religious leaders should have a large influence on politics (53%), while roughly a quarter of Muslims in Pakistan (27%) and Bangladesh (25%) express this view.

The above indicates that more than half see a role of religious leaders in politics and that a quarter see a STRONG role for religious leaders.

Here is yet another quote regarding the INTERPRETATION of shariat as well that Pakistani's favor, beating even Afghans:

In South Asia, Pakistani and Afghan Muslims clearly support hudud punishments. In both countries, more than eight-in-ten Muslims who favor making sharia the official law of the land also back these types of penalties for theft and robbery (88% in Pakistan and 81% in Afghanistan). By contrast, only half of Bangladeshis who favor sharia as the law of the land share this view.

so you have a problem with the evidence here. Let us just say that your view reflects a minority, elite, wealthy people's view detached from the ground level reality I encountered on my travels through your country while talking with the rural people and the masses. You and Shabaz choose to believe that most people agree with you, but your evidences are lacking.

Now the only place I do agree with you is that many Pakistanis are confused, in that they are programmed by school and the media military complex to be jingoistic so that the military keeps its tight corrupt hold on things. This means that the Pakistani non military sector suffers while defense flourishes and continues to provide bungalows for low level military people and sycophantic government people all because they have control of the radio and television waves to influence opinions.



Neither do they want to end its alliance with American/West which TTP has put as the prime reason why they are against the state despite claiming to be extremely patriotic and ready to fight for Pakistan.

Once again, the data disagrees with you. The same group, Pew, well respected abroad and here, noted the following as recently as 2010:

Among the seven countries surveyed with substantial Muslim populations, the U.S. was seen favorably by just 17 percent in Egypt, Turkey and Pakistan and 21 percent in Jordan. The U.S.'s positive rating was 52 percent in Lebanon, 59 percent in Indonesia and 81 percent in Nigeria, where Muslims comprise about half the population.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/faith/2010/06/global_poll_muslims_leery_of_u.html

The gallup polling agrees with this and has an even larger sample size:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160439/2012-pakistani-disapproval-leadership-soars.aspx

In both organizations polling, a massive majority was against the drone campaigns.



What choice Pakistan has apart from bombing them?

Well the first choice is to marginalize people like you and Shabaz and not take any advice whatsoever from jingoists who think that they know better than their own people yet have no idea of the suffering and true needs and wants of their people. The second option is to do what real nations do for their own people, which is value the life, liberty and property of their own citizens above all others. Pakistan has been all too willing to misuse and misapply religious laws when it suits its establishment's purpose as opposed to social justice.

Ofcourse Pakistan is a poor country and no evacuation process would be perfect.At the end of the day,These taliban's are keeping FATA in stone age.

Wrong again, its your policies that drive the populace to support these groups and its your policies that further radicalize them. Once again, I follow the evidence and not personal whims. Just because your family benefits from the feudal aspects of the current Pakistani social structure does not mean you should ignore evidence.

Robert Pape - Cutting the Fuse: The Explosion of Suicide Terrorism and How to Stop It (3 of 4) - YouTube

This is Dr. Robert Pape, of University of Chicago, he has the largest collection of suicide attack events in the worlds largest database. He Begin watching this video at 2 min and 51 seconds. He provides an evidence based reason of why attacks began to spike up in mainland Pakistan beyond FATA and what instigated it.

He says

There is an explosion of suicide attacks in the Western regions of Pakistan which are also Pashtun. While we are directly occupying the Pashtun homeland in Afghanistan, at the same time we put pressure on Musharraf to take 100,000 Pakistani army troops, move them from the Eastern part of the country and put them on the Western part of the country to essentially indirectly occupy the other half of the Pashtun homeland. And over 75% of all those hundreds of suicide attacks in Pakistan have been against the Pakistani Army in Western Pakistan.

He ends the discussion at 3 min and 42 sec.



After operation the Govt plan's to invest 38Billion PKR for the development of FATA which is a Huge amount if we consider 110Billion development funds of KPK.Universities are planned in FATA and a Medical college is being setup in bajaur agency.The uplitf of the people of FATA will ensure that they won't be used up as raw material for TTP and other militant organization suicide blasts compaign

A facebook page is not an adequate reference for a nation that is renowned for skimming aid and resources away from other provinces than the Panjab and for being the best in the world at stealing from its own people. In general you have proven nothing to me except that you are out of touch with reality and as an oppressor, seek to implement your elitest views onto the people even if it means nearly half a million people lose their stability.

Do you understand that FATA still has a livestock based agrarian culture and society? That means that they subsist and trade in livestock like the fat tail sheep and many of these domesticated animals rely on human presence for survival. It is cruel and inhumane for that bought and paid for prostitute military to pretty much ensure that about 1/3 of the tribal people's protein resources and agrarian economy is decimated with this mass migration. But then again, they have people like you and Shahbaz who they have hoodwinked into being the biggest cheerleaders for their purposes. Next time bring me sound evidence for any future discussion

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I thought that I had seen it all in the drum up to the Iraq war here where a civilized nation was convinced by people in this military industrial media complex about non existent WMDs etc and tanked their own economy and well being by invading a nation that had not done anything to them....

Now as I see settled area Pakistani Pashtuns and their southern national brethren cheerleading a Pashtun massacre, I realize that the Pakistani military has also utilized this tactic of media manipulation propaganda + control to turn their people into sheep in supporting this injustice.

Instead of asking tough questions and demanding evidence and trying to understand cause and effect as easy to do above with unbiased sources- these people are all too willing to lend their support to these butchers and murderers from the Panjab and feudal elites throughout the country who are the people benefiting from this and who throw a bone here or there to their house negro Pashtuns in the settled areas.

Perhaps the recent GEO spat should have awakened everyone there. How stupid are the rest of the media arms and the people so as to clearly know that a reporter was shot at and survived against expectations and yet the television channel is being threatened with a shut down and cheered on by the sheep - all for questioning the military narratives.

This was the same military that murdered Hayatullah Khan, an innocent man and an excellent reporter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5096008.stm

His family blame the security forces in the tribal areas for his murder.

What a massive injustice. Every Pashtun in Pakistan should have been demanding that the military hang the ISI/military murderers of this gentle and honest man.

[Toramana]

Barakzai Abdali, I don't think you have more concern for Pukhtuns than for Al-Queda grass. Rest, why are you lambasting settled area Pukhtuns? They and their leadership did what they could. The problem is, in FATA itself we have canines like Da Bannu who can prey on his own people for a few bones thrown to him.

By the way the most un-Pukhtun area in all the Pukhtun Land is Bannu with the adjoining Karak that have been serving whoever in power in the center of the empire whether British Mughals, etc. loyally since British times.