NaPak Army killing innocent civilians in Waziristan

[Shehbaz Khan]

Toramana, I just heard ANP supported the operation, what do you say about it?

[Smarty]

Toramana, I just heard ANP supported the operation, what do you say about it?

Kamasal ANP have sold themeselves to paki military establishment

[Shehbaz Khan]

^ Was that meant for you, that comment was for Toramana.

Now coming to the operation of Waziristan. It's good, was the need of time, but the complete strategy isn't good at all. As only bombing those hills won't solve anything that's what the Pakistani leadership needs to learn.

[khushal]

^^The PTI also endorsed it Shabaz.

What do you mean the operation is good and not good.

[Toramana]

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-7-256750-Refugees-anxiously-await-news-of-family

BANNU: In the dusty, sun-baked streets of Bannu, thousands of people who have fled a major military offensive in North Waziristan tribal district wait anxiously for news of loved ones left behind.

Many speak of civilian casualties in the air strikes which were mounted before the formal start of the operation on Sunday. Others questioned the utility of an offensive which was telegraphed to militants weeks in advance, allowing them to slip away.

The bustling walled town of Bannu, some 10 kilometres (six miles) from the border with North Waziristan, is accustomed to sudden influxes of civilians fleeing the regular eruptions of violence in the tribal areas which are havens for militants. Rents in the town have soared along with the temperature as local landlords and hotels take advantage of the latest flow of refugees, who began coming in late May following air strikes.

Raza Ullah, 10, fled Miranshah, the main town of North Waziristan, along with seven family members. But his father, a tribal elder, was left behind. “We have had no contact with him since the launch of the operation, we are worried about him,” he told AFP. “Father was urging us to leave as soon as possible. I miss my school and school friends.”

Pakistan’s army has said around 200 militants have died since a long-awaited offensive began on Sunday, a week after an all-night siege on Karachi airport claimed by the Taliban. It has been impossible to verify the toll independently or the identity of those killed. Hundreds of tribesmen crowded around a bus-stop in the town’s main bazaar Tuesday, hoping their loved ones would arrive soon by the lone road that links Bannu to the tribal zone.

Laver Khan, a trader from Datta Khel village, fled to Bannu five days ago and rented a house for his 25-strong family. Now another 75 people from his village have also taken shelter in the cramped house, he said. “They (authorities) should have given us a chance to vacate our areas,” Khan said. The army has imposed a curfew and issued shoot-on-sight orders for anyone leaving their homes in the fighting zone. “I haven’t contacted them since days, I am worried what is happening there,” he said.

Haji Saleem Khan, a 60-year-old from Shawa village who owns a transport business, said he visited Bannu’s taxi-stand every day to find out whether the road to the tribal area had opened to civilian traffic. He said he plans to take a taxi to collect his relatives as soon as the curfew is lifted. But Saleem questioned why tanks, troops and jets were bombing the area when the fighters there had already left. “Why did they begin this operation so late? Most of the militants has already fled, those leaving behind are non-combatants,” he said.

Like many others, Saleem also suggested that the air strikes were not as surgical as the military claimed. “They killed women and children in the air strikes, I myself took out dead bodies from under the rubble,” he said. Zahidullah Khan, 31 from Mir Ali, said he would prefer drone strikes — a controversial view in Pakistan where the unmanned US aircraft are highly controversial. “A US drone hits its target accurately and does not cause other damages but jet fighters smash everything,” Khan said.

An AFP reporter in Bannu said landlords had doubled their rents and hotel-owners had increased rates fivefold to take advantage of the influx. Some 62,000 people are believed to have fled North Waziristan ahead of the operation, according to government figures, though many consider the true figure to be far higher. The government is building camps just outside Bannu, but in the blistering summer heat — 47 degrees C on Monday — refugees are avoiding them because of the lack of shade, electricity and running water.

Muhammad Rashid Dawar, a 42-year-old labourer, said he could not afford to rent accommodation and did not want to go to a camp, instead taking his wife and six children to a school that was closed for summer. He said he decided to leave in late May following air strikes. “There was a huge bombardment, the whole village shook like an earthquake. I saw women and children buried under the wreckage of their houses and I knew it was time we must go.”

[Shehbaz Khan]

^^The PTI also endorsed it Shabaz.

What do you mean the operation is good and not good.

Don't take me to be a blind follower of PTI. I voted PTI yet I repeatedly supported the good policies of ANP here.

Going further..

What makes an operation successful? Is it just the military bombing, NO!
The govt needed to formulate a strategy, the whole population of Waziristan is less than Gujranwala District, we need to get the civilians on board talk to them, and evacuate civilians from that place and make proper arrangements from them somewhere else. Than we need to open the fire. Crush and kill those *******s in their bloody caves, roast them so that they can enjoy their hoories in a better way.
After that we need to formulate a few policy, the top one is development of Waziristan. Make it a modern town, city with all the facilities of life, infrastructure of roads. Get Afghan Govt on board, increase the security on borders and both the governments should for once decide that no matter what happens we will not support terrorism and not get involved in any sort of proxy wars on each other's land. Only than can we achieve peace else we can waste keep on wasting our gunpowder and resources.

It's the lack of this over all strategy that made the operations unsuccessful as we failed to understand that the process of attaining peace simply doesn't comprise of military operation only.

[khushal]

Don't take me to be a blind follower of PTI. I voted PTI yet I repeatedly supported the good policies of ANP here.

Going further..

What makes an operation successful? Is it just the military bombing, NO!
The govt needed to formulate a strategy, the whole population of Waziristan is less than Gujranwala District, we need to get the civilians on board talk to them, and evacuate civilians from that place and make proper arrangements from them somewhere else. Than we need to open the fire. Crush and kill those *******s in their bloody caves, roast them so that they can enjoy their hoories in a better way.
After that we need to formulate a few policy, the top one is development of Waziristan. Make it a modern town, city with all the facilities of life, infrastructure of roads. Get Afghan Govt on board, increase the security on borders and both the governments should for once decide that no matter what happens we will not support terrorism and not get involved in any sort of proxy wars on each other's land. Only than can we achieve peace else we can waste keep on wasting our gunpowder and resources.

It's the lack of this over all strategy that made the operations unsuccessful as we failed to understand that the process of attaining peace simply doesn't comprise of military operation only.

That's fantasy, no one cares about the civilians especially paksitan if one looks at its history.

So do the impossible and keep the hypocrisy of paksitan as is meaning telling these people to wage jihad in Afghanistan while supporting the people(NATO) that jihad is being waged against and make money while Pashtun blood is spilled.

[Shehbaz Khan]

That's why I said the operation is good. Yet I have issues with it. Though the Army has made camps for the IDPs yet around 50k civilians have migrated there are many still left. And what when the bombing ends? How are they going to make sure that during the bombings none of the rats will cross the durand and stay in Afghanistan?

The problem with people around is that when Pakistan wants to hold peace talks they say we are supporting the killers of Pakhtuns and when we start an operation they say we are killing innocent Pakhtun civilians. You can't make everyone happy.

How much Afghanistan cares about the civilians, have a look at a book named 'The Terrorist Prince' sometime. I know many mistakes are done by Pakistan but so is the case at your end.

We need to end this **** and by We I mean Pakistan and Afghanistan both, we need to sit on a dialogue table and formulate a strategy against it together, else this wound is going to become a cancer and the region will never be stable again!

[khushal]

That's why I said the operation is good. Yet I have issues with it. Though the Army has made camps for the IDPs yet around 50k civilians have migrated there are many still left. And what when the bombing ends? How are they going to make sure that during the bombings none of the rats will cross the durand and stay in Afghanistan?

The problem with people around is that when Pakistan wants to hold peace talks they say we are supporting the killers of Pakhtuns and when we start an operation they say we are killing innocent Pakhtun civilians. You can't make everyone happy.

How much Afghanistan cares about the civilians, have a look at a book named 'The Terrorist Prince' sometime. I know many mistakes are done by Pakistan but so is the case at your end.

We need to end this **** and by We I mean Pakistan and Afghanistan both, we need to sit on a dialogue table and formulate a strategy against it together, else this wound is going to become a cancer and the region will never be stable again!

Why should any afghan administration whether its the current one or Tajiks come to power or even the Taliban trust Pakistan. The Afghans maybe telling you that they have sealed the border on the other side of this operation, which is impossible by the way, but wasn't Pakistan telling that to the Afghans/NATO during the past decade.
Afghanistan wont touch the TTP just like Pakistan wont touch the Afghan Taliban. That is just the way it is.

Your avoiding the root of the problem shahbaz, the hypocrisy of Pakistan and how Pakistan makes a profit using these people.

[Shehbaz Khan]

^ I am not avoiding it. All I am telling you that this hypocrisy exists at both ends of the Durand. You just can't point your fingers towards Pakistan and say that we are having it.

[khushal]

^ I am not avoiding it. All I am telling you that this hypocrisy exists at both ends of the Durand. You just can't point your fingers towards Pakistan and say that we are having it.

I am highly critical of the afghan gov but on this issue it is completely Pakistan that is the hypocrite. The TTP is not an afghan gov creation nor its supporter although there are recent allegations but no proof. The TTP is the sole creation of Pakistan's hypocrisy. These people realized that they are cannon fodder for Pakistan to make money by telling them to wage jihad in Afghanistan while at the same time supporting NATO that killed these same people all while Pakistan made billions.
Barackzai has a wonderful piece on it.
http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=44139

[Pakwatan]

I am highly critical of the afghan gov but on this issue it is completely Pakistan that is the hypocrite. The TTP is not an afghan gov creation nor its supporter although there are recent allegations but no proof. The TTP is the sole creation of Pakistan's hypocrisy. These people realized that they are cannon fodder for Pakistan to make money by telling them to wage jihad in Afghanistan while at the same time supporting NATO that killed these same people all while Pakistan made billions.
Barackzai has a wonderful piece on it.
http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=44139

Hahahah.

And that's why Sajna's group split from the TTP?

He is leading the Mahsuds, and they realize who has been giving money to destabilize their region, and the rest of Pakistan. Afghan NDS is playing a dangerous game with fire. If you think they care about Pashtuns, then you must be a lunatic.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^ I am not avoiding it. All I am telling you that this hypocrisy exists at both ends of the Durand. You just can't point your fingers towards Pakistan and say that we are having it.

Incorrect, Pakistan and Pakistanis and especially, ESPECIALLY the Pashtuns of the settled KP areas are the most responsible for the death and destruction being bought upon FATA and its tribes at this very moment.

Why? Because of your jingoism and your inability to even question the policies and history of the state that you live in.

A settled Peshawari Pashtun will have 1000 excuses to offer about why its OK to arrest, invade, and treat FATA citizens differently than others... they will talk about backwards behavior (as if these moronic Kentucky Friend Chicken eating, pot bellied, corrupt, greasy moustachoid Sardar types are somehow "forward"), they will talk about criminals taking refuge in FATA, and so on and so forth.

The issue here is that you fail to see the BASIC reason that you are attacked day in and day out by these people that you think you have the right to murder and kill.

The fault lies not in the Pakistani Talibs - but rather your own military and and your own intelligence agencies which assumed that these people were dumb automatons who would accept Pakistan's double game and do nothing about it.

Your KP people called these very same people holy warriors in the era of Najib. You claimed it was to repel India and Russia on the door step and to ensure Pakistan was not next. These people were lionized for doing what they have always done, which was to fight an invader and pretty much keep your lazy backsides safe. In fact, so many people in Afghanistan sacrificed against the Red Army only to hear Pakistanis try to emotionally black mail Afghans with the idea of how Pakistani land was a refuge for them.

The forefathers of the FATA people poured across the hills with both Nadir and Amanullah Shah as they have deep links in Birmal and Khost and many other parts of Afghanistan - they are inexctricably linked to Afghanistan.

Your deep state and your army (those morons that you now call heroes who are pretty much ghwarmaalyaan and also kill innocent people on some other idiot's order were perfectly happy to let these same tribals do what they have always done when some contingent amongst them felt it their duty to stay involved with their other tribal brethren across the border against an outside occupation.

The issue arose when they saw that you allowed pipelines and the shipment of killing machines to the very people you viewed as threatening your strategic depth who would in turn KILL these people.

Then you are foolish enough to ask them to simply ignore the double game Pakistan plays?

It is you that should apologise a thousand times over for supporting the monstrosity that is Pakistan and for acting like a lemming and accepting any and all explanations that your idiot government and your idiot army give you regarding the FATA people.

Quiet frankly you have no business whatsoever in FATA. Your only business is to be honest and not try to trivialize the retardness of how Pakistan operates when it comes to these matters.

You simply have no moral high ground to judge FATA, its tribals, and the people that you guys double crossed. Rather, it should start with you admitting the following to these people:

"Dear tribal fighters and other religionists, we in Pakistan felt that we have our national security goals in Afghanistan. In order to avoid direct confrontation with the West or the Islamists we decided to use both to our advantage in a way that we thought would benefit us. This means that we would use the manpower of the tribals to fight a war of attrition in Afghanistan while collecting the cash bounty (like a prostitute) for shipping arms and yet at the same time allowing the prevailing sentiment to be that kafiraan had occupied a Muslim country (i.e. we did nothing to directly repel this notion). We were wrong to not be direct with both sides and have inflicted death and destruction and now, to cover our tracks we plan on killing the very people we used and this will also allow us to continue to collect the booty call paychecks from the West to keep our government afloat. We plan on an invasion and lots of death and destruction... this will not change our views on strategic depth but we will make sure to mistreat our own people and propagandize against them. We will now pick a policy and publicize it and adhere to it instead of lying to the world."

[gadoonwal]

The killing of pashtuns on both side of durandline will continue by the terrorist state of pakistan.
Pakistan and US are fighting their war on pashtunland for their stratigic interests.
The whole world know that pakistan is the factory of terrorism but no one speak the truth cus the westren media know that this is well planed by US and pakistan.
Both have their own interests.
pashtuns accross the world should protest in front of UN mission against the terrorism of pakistan.
pakistan is great threat to the world peace and its Neighbor.
pakistan is getting millions of dollars for the killing of innocensts pashtuns.
So far they did,nt kill a single terrorist.
All of them are civilians.
I call on the afghan govt to open its border let the waziris in to afghanistan.
Arm them and send them back to kill these dirty paki soldiers of ranjeet sing nalwa.
They destroyed your country and pashtukhwa and now is time for payback.

[gadoonwal]

^ I am not avoiding it. All I am telling you that this hypocrisy exists at both ends of the Durand. You just can't point your fingers towards Pakistan and say that we are having it.

you should think of your ,,altaap bhai,,,.

Do,nt defend the evil state of pakistan.
pakistan is responssible for the killing of every afghan and pashtun.
Pakistan brought the west to this region.
So pakistan is directly respossible for the destruction of pashtunkhwa and afghanistan.
I hope ,,modi,,,will bomb the kahota plant located near pindi to clear the region from terrorism.
The world must unite to stop pakistani terrorism on pashtun and afghan soil.