Tableeghi Jumat: the indirect cause of extremism and terrorism

[Badlun]

so any person who fights against an invasion of their country, is a terrorist?

i agree that not all afghans wanted taliban in control. we have had thousands of hazaras escaping to australia, for years.

badlun, you are a very naive person, to have such faith in the goodness and charity of the american military and government.
let us see. they have not left yet but have helped their agribusiness mates take a foothold in iraq and afghanistan.

If I am naive then the 40 or 50% non Pashtuns in Afghanistan,government, all ministries, provincial governments, both houses of the parliament and their members, all the students in all the educational institutions are also naive. All these oppose Taliban and favor US.

International trade and business, commerce, imports, exports, investment is a general practice between countries including US and Afghanistan. US does not need to kill its own people to promote business and selling tomatoes and onions(agribusiness). US already have very good business with many other countries with out war. Why to secure the turbulent markets of Iraq and Afghanistan by waging wars,..seems strange!

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi or the so called Mujadad Alaf Sani was a sufi but he believed in Wahdatul Shahood not Wahadatul Wajood. He is opposed by many sufis especially by Qadris and Brelivis as they consider him the one who had gone astray.

oh yeah?

Sufism and Shari`ah, from Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani

Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani said:
Anyone who does not follow the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), taking his Law [shari`a] in one hand and the Book that was revealed to him in the other hand, and who does not attain to by his path [tariq] to Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He), will perish and perish, will go astray and go astray. They are two guides to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He). The Qur'an is your guide to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He), and the Sunna is your guide to the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace).
O Allah, cause a separation between us and our lower selves [nufus], and:

Give us in this world good, and good in the hereafter, and guard us against the torment of the fire. [Qur'an 2:201]

From Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani, "The Sublime Revelation" [Al-Fath ar-Rabbani], translated by Muhtar Holland (Published by Al-Baz Publishing, Houston, Texas, 1992). The quote is from the end of the twenty-fifth discourse, p. 182.

are you SURE you really know what Sufism teaches or are you just pretending like Toramana is and just incorrectly using the term without understanding it?

you should at least get educated about topics first before trying to claim you know them.

[Toramana]

oh yeah?

Sufism and Shari`ah, from Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani




are you SURE you really know what Sufism teaches or are you just pretending like Toramana is and just incorrectly using the term without understanding it?

you should at least get educated about topics first before trying to claim you know them.

pa khair pa khair devolution through treason---ra owatai da sorai na?

[faye]

If I am naive then the 40 or 50% non Pashtuns in Afghanistan,government, all ministries, provincial governments, both houses of the parliament and their members, all the students in all the educational institutions are also naive. All these oppose Taliban and favor US.

International trade and business, commerce, imports, exports, investment is a general practice between countries including US and Afghanistan. US does not need to kill its own people to promote business and selling tomatoes and onions(agribusiness). US already have very good business with many other countries with out war. Why to secure the turbulent markets of Iraq and Afghanistan by waging wars,..seems strange!

then why have even students and professors been protesting in afghanistan, against america?

read this article please.

GRAIN — The soils of war

for someone who advocates education, you need to take off the rose coloured glasses about american govt/military intent.
you really think they give a s*** about afghanistan and it's people, when they don't even care about their own people?
sure, they have to do some things to make out like they are in afghanistan to assist the afghans and yes, there will be many who did not like the taliban being in control, but where do you get your statistics?

[faye]

Also I have read all the lectures of Osho on Sufism who is an authority on sufism and spiritualism. Also I read the Noor bakhshi teachings on Sufism. Ismailis, and other shia sects also have good literature on sufism which I have consulted. Still I need many other books to study because sufism is an ocean.
.

osho was a philosophy student, who also read a lot of books. he took the knowledge from others and conned people like you.
since when was osho a practitioner of sufism, to become an expert on sufism?

[faye]

Scientists for science, philosophers for philosophy, politicians for politics, artists for art, social workers for society, Taliban or Mullas or priests for religion and so on. .

all of these subjects overlap. you cannot divide one from the other.
religious beliefs influence the laws of a democracy.
science influences the thinking and the physical reality of all people in a scientifically oriented society and have some influence in those countries who are not.
politicians are people with religious or other beliefs.
artists do political art.
social workers can be influenced by religious, scientific or other beliefs.
mullahs and religious people are also influenced by trends in a society. perhaps to protest against the corruption occuring (as the tableegh appear to be doing) and to assist people for the learning of their religion. they can also be a political protester.

some people in all these fields can be corrupt, devious, mentally disturbed, etc etc. no group of people have shown themselves to be perfect, that i have noticed, as yet.

those who turn to tableegh jumat, are making a choice. they do not appear to be forced to join this religion.
just as you can accept that some people can become atheists, you need to be able to accept that others want to become more religious. whether you like it or not.
but don't give false propaganda for your own intent.

[afghan]

Tableeghi jumat to be an indirect cause of terrorism or extremism very hard to believe. Taliban used to refer to them as khorakey(sissies).

[RevolutionThroughReason]

It will be a surprize for you that I have read completely kashful mahjoob of Data Ganj bakhsh, kimyaye saadat,summary of Ahyaul Uloom of Imam Ghazali , Shariyat wa tareeqat of Ashraf Ali thanawi, masnawi maulana Rum and many other books on sufism.

Also I have read all the lectures of Osho on Sufism who is an authority on sufism and spiritualism. Also I read the Noor bakhshi teachings on Sufism. Ismailis, and other shia sects also have good literature on sufism which I have consulted. Still I need many other books to study because sufism is an ocean.

Tableeghis only talk of zikar but they never go in the profound depths of mysticism. They are very superficial people. I have met few tableeghis who are inspired from the deobandi sufis and some times you may find the book shairiat wa tariqat with them which is again a try to make tareeqat subservient to the so called shariyat.

If you've read these books then you'll find that they have more in common with Tablighi Jama'at than with Osho.

Osho was never accepted into any reputed Sufi Tariqah (which he wouldn't be anyways) and by that any claim of his expertise regarding Sufism is highly tenuous because he's a tertiary source and seems motivated with selfish agenda to portray things in lieu of his own ideology. Which itself is tenuous.

If you're read Kashful Mahjoub then you would have noticed what it preaches regarding Shari'ah.





It clearly emphasizes Shari'ah; which runs contrary to both your arguments and the preachings of Osho.

In fact Shaikh Ali Hujwari (Data Ganj Bakhsh) describes and speaks exactly about men like Osho as being fake mystics and false Sufis trying to promote worldly desires



So based on the teachings of the big well known dignitaries of Sufism; your ideas do not reflect Sufi teachings.

[Badlun]

This thread is dedicated to Tableeghi Jumaat. We can have detailed discussion on Sufism, Osho etc somewhere else but here I will only try to clarify that I am not only for Muslim Sufism but for Sufism which can be used synonymously with mysticism or spiritualism. If a Muslim Sufi as referred above talk of Shariat, I am not bound to follow that in letter and spirit and if a non Muslim Sufi like Osho tells me something on Sufism and I want to follow it , is my free choice.

Osho is my ideal because he says

Sufism is not concerned with knowledge. Its whole concern is love, intense, passionate love: how to fall in love with the whole, how to be in tune with the whole, how to bridge the distance between the creation and the creator.
The so-called organized religions of the world teach a kind of duality, that the creator is separate from the creation, that the creator is higher than the creation, it has to be renounced. Sufi′s don′t renounce, they rejoice. And that′s what I am teaching you here: Rejoice!
My sannyas is a way of rejoicing, not a way of renunciation.

Rumi has said:

If you are not one with the Beloved,
Seek!
And if you are in union,
Rejoice!
This assembly is a Sufi assembly. You are my Sufis, the Sufis of the new age. I am introducing you to the world of love. I am initiating you into the ways of love . . .
http://www.satrak****a.com/osho_on_sufism.htm
for more details opn Sufism and Osho please consult
Osho on Sufism

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I think it all relates because you're arguing based on those ideas. Osho is just using some lofty jargon. Of course Sufism is based on knowledge. that is why another name for Sufi is "Arif" and in Sufi practice once you get into Tariqah the next stage is "Ma'arifah"; this is knowledge. You're only retreating from the topic now out of fear because I actually own these books and I can actually print pages which show that Sufism teaches the opposite of your ideas. How can Sufism be without knowledge? The Absence of Knowledge is ignorance and ignorance and Enlightenment are opposite things. and only enlightenment is the secret to divine love.

Osho is just pretending like he knows Sufism and spiritualism; it is no surprise that Kashful Mahjub describes people with his characteristics with strong rebuke but all the Legendary Sufis like Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Khwaja Bahauddin Naqshband, Shaikh Muhiyuddin Chishti all say and teach the opposite of Osho.It has become popular these days for Spiritual Con-Artists to quote Rumi; but I say that you and Osho are MISQUOTING Rumi.



Here is an important quote by Rumi that many pretenders often ignore

I am the slave of the Quran while I still have life,
I am dust on the path of Muhammad, The Chosen One,
If anyone interprets my words in any other way,
I deplore that person and I deplore his words. — Rumi

This means the Love that Rumi speaks about is rooted in SHari'ah and he's warning everyone for people like Osho who misuse and abuse his words to make them seem like they mean something else.

[faye]

badlun, you brought osho into the mix as an authority on sufism. remember?
lol..osho claims he read thousands of books, so anything he says is more than likely, a quote he took from one of them, since he hasn't practiced sufism.
he was too busy being a guru for insecure people and indulging in materialism.

[faye]

[QUOTE]Sufism is principally a quest for a living knowledge of the Supreme Being. To the orthodox Muslim Allah ia the Lord of the Worlds, unique in his essence and attributes, ruling over all the universe and quite unlike anything in his creation. To the Sufi, on the other hand, "God is the One Real Being which underlies all phenomena" (Nicholson, The Mystics of Islam, p.80). He is everything and there is nothing but Him. Man's purpose is to lose his natural sense of a separate identity from his Creator and to be absorbed instead into his knowledge until there remains no distinction of consciousness between him and God. Through a series of stages (maqamat) and subjective experiences (ahwal) this process of absorption develops until complete annihilation (fana) takes place and the worshipper becomes al-insanul-kamil, the "perfect man".[QUOTE]

[gulkhan320]

Tableeghyan

I dont agree with the perception that tableeghyan are actual terrorists. They are harmless people as described by another ghamkhore brother. But there is another aspect to the jamat. They are attracting those people who do not want to work and live off the others earnings. They leave their childern and wives to fend for themselves with the wrong thinking that Allah will feed them. That Allah is going to mend their house if it ever needed repaires etc. This is wrong. Man is here to work and earn for himself and his family. In modern era childern need a lot of care and guidance for attaining education. They need to study at home when they return from school. Normally male childern cant be controlled by their mothers. They need fathers presence. We see in our villages that childern of those people who are away from home for economic or any other reason, tableegh etc, dont do well in studies and in lives.
Their concept of free rizq for every one is totally wrong and away from the teachings of Islam. A bird feed her siblings when they are hatched. They are trained in flying and searching food and catching prey. They are left when their parents are sure that they can fend for themselves. How can we say that a human child will be fed by Allah without earning for himself.
The sad part is that this phenomenan only exists in Pakhtoon society. I weep when I see pakhtoons roaming in Punjab with bedding on their backs, away from their childern and their jobs. We need to stand in their way and educate them that even the Holy Prophit PBUH did not leave his job for tableegh, what to talk of Sahaba and others. Please take care of your childer. Educate them to shoulder their responsibilities like a sparro does rather more than that as we are ashraful makhlooqat.

[KGODB]

I dont agree with the perception that tableeghyan are actual terrorists. They are harmless people as described by another ghamkhore brother. But there is another aspect to the jamat. They are attracting those people who do not want to work and live off the others earnings. They leave their childern and wives to fend for themselves with the wrong thinking that Allah will feed them. That Allah is going to mend their house if it ever needed repaires etc. This is wrong. Man is here to work and earn for himself and his family. In modern era childern need a lot of care and guidance for attaining education. They need to study at home when they return from school. Normally male childern cant be controlled by their mothers. They need fathers presence. We see in our villages that childern of those people who are away from home for economic or any other reason, tableegh etc, dont do well in studies and in lives.
Their concept of free rizq for every one is totally wrong and away from the teachings of Islam. A bird feed her siblings when they are hatched. They are trained in flying and searching food and catching prey. They are left when their parents are sure that they can fend for themselves. How can we say that a human child will be fed by Allah without earning for himself.
The sad part is that this phenomenan only exists in Pakhtoon society. I weep when I see pakhtoons roaming in Punjab with bedding on their backs, away from their childern and their jobs. We need to stand in their way and educate them that even the Holy Prophit PBUH did not leave his job for tableegh, what to talk of Sahaba and others. Please take care of your childer. Educate them to shoulder their responsibilities like a sparro does rather more than that as we are ashraful makhlooqat.

khair yoseh wrora, der kha khabar di wokro

[gulkhan320]

And to qoute my nazm,
Marghay..( Tablighyano ta)

Marghey ki jala jora
Pa ki bachi peyda kri
Bia ye sati so rwazi
warla khorak warkawi

Chi ye wazari ushey
bia ye bahar da jaley
kri tarbiat da alwat
der pa khashaney gula

Bia ye sahra ta buzi
chal warta khai da khkar
ao da chinji niwalo
ao da daney mundalo

insaan ba sanga predy
wroki bachi pa kor ki
chi ba ye khudai luyawey?
ao warkawey ba rizk?

ugda khwari ghwarey
bachi da sharful khalqat
loya seena da mor plar
Da idaro tarbiat

Ka shi insaan, insaan
Kha musalmaan ba shi
har sa aasaan ba shi
jor ba dunia kri Janat

Thanks! Enjoy! :D

Comments are invited....



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