3 Ghazni elders killed by Taliban after uprising

[کیش]

Even if we factor that in, those countries aren't using scorched earth policies; they can't because then civilians will rise up against them. What they do is bank on the Taliban messing up and then sweep in to take advantage of the situation. That's what that whole "war of minds" babble is about .

Even the 50 nations was the same size as the Soviet invasion, there the entire Afghan population was involved and they won., even when the Soviets had air power. That shows us that if the Taliban were really loved by the Afghans, it would be like the Soviet- Afghan war.

Now what do I think of these men? Well tough to say, do these men think women should be buried under a cloak for the rest of their lives, or that they can be bought and sold like animals or that people learning to read and getting an education is the work of the devil?

That's not really answering the question. Afghans have been fighting wars for 30 years, so if some don't wish to fight that is their respectable choice.

Your last paragraph is a broad generalization of the mainstream view of the Taliban, and had nothing to do with what I asked you. Did they not give their lives fighting against an invader? Did you not hear the one fighter who with his last words say his Kalimah? Did you not see fighters ranging from young adult to old men? Did you not notice most of their fighters wearing a black bandana with "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger?"

Don't they fit into this verse?

Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.*
(* سورة البقرة *, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

[RevolutionThroughReason]

That's not really answering the question. Afghans have been fighting wars for 30 years, so if some don't wish to fight that is their respectable choice.

Your last paragraph is a broad generalization of the mainstream view of the Taliban, and had nothing to do with what I asked you. Did they not give their lives fighting against an invader? Did you not hear the one fighter who with his last words say his Kalimah? Did you not see fighters ranging from young adult to old men? Did you not notice most of their fighters wearing a black bandana with "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger?"

That's just a narrative; while I agree there is some truth to it, I think Afghans would fight if the cause is valid, no matter how tired they are. In way Afghans have been fighting for hundreds of years, so perhaps this is a misrepresentation.


To me it has everything to do with it; If these are the men who are fighting, they deserve to be destroyed by Allah(swt), if they aren't , then May they be victorious. My answer depends on their views. To me it's not enough to just claim to be Muslim or blindly make a statement, you have to be doing it for justice. I won't support injustice.

Anyone can make a fashion statement, what counts is the goal.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

[کیش]

That's just a narrative; while I agree there is some truth to it, I think Afghans would fight if the cause is valid, no matter how tired they are. In way Afghans have been fighting for hundreds of years, so perhaps this is a misrepresentation.


To me it has everything to do with it; If these are the men who are fighting, they deserve to be destroyed by Allah(swt), if they aren't , then May they be victorious. My answer depends on their views. To me it's not enough to just claim to be Muslim or blindly make a statement, you have to be doing it for justice. I won't support injustice.

Anyone can make a fashion statement, what counts is the goal.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.

This Quranic verse is relative to this discussion,

*Jihad is ordained for you though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.*
(* سورة البقرة *, Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

May god please draw a conclusion to this war, and start a peaceful resolution between Afghans and Americans. I have utmost respect for the Americans and Afghans in this conflict. It's not the soldiers of both sides who are war mongeres, it's the weak leadership on both sides who are continuing their stubborn policies.

[faye]

in islam though, is legit for the taliban to be fighting in defense of osama bin laden and al qaeda, if he organised the killing of innocent people, in 9/11?

[کیش]

in islam though, is legit for the taliban to be fighting in defense of osama bin laden and al qaeda, if he organised the killing of innocent people, in 9/11?

They are not fighting for Osama Bin Laden, or Al-Qaeda. There's only a small handful of Al-Qaeda in Afg/Pak and it doesn't make seems for 30,000 Taliban soldiers worth risking theirs and their families life for one guy nobody had met.

I've had a few family members work as linguist throughout Afghanistan and even in Bagram notorious prison. The imprision fighters all say they are fighting for god, their deen, and honor. American soldiers are fighting for their nation and their honor (the good ones at least). You won't hear them saying their risking their lives for Barry Soetoro.

I don't belief an Arab in Afghanistan can and execute the events that occurred on 9/11. It was started by the war mongeres at the Pentagon. Just look at who gains the most since 9/11: defense contractors, and greedy businessmen who are looking to loot the natural resources of Afghanistan. I don't wanna deter from main discussion so I won't comment further on this topic.

I also do not wish to continue this educational discussion with brother RTR, as this topic is dangerous and can lead me to a place I do not wanna go cause of the sensitivity. I already expressed too much so any snitch out there I am a patriotic American :-)

[khushal]

if i read it correctly, the taliban ran away from afghanistan and are hiding amongst the locals. thereby the police, army and drones have been in the area where the taliban are hiding.
why are they not fighting in afghanistan?

they are not hiding among the locals, they are the locals. the taliban ran away from the north and returned to their villages in the south and east. These people than sat around in their villages and watched what the new government was going to do. They watched while minorities took power in kabul and corrupt warlords took power in the rest of the country. Well those people arnt going to just keep still. They are going to get restless.
So they started preaching the corruption of the government and that the government has done nothing for the people and again rose to a viable force again.

Now this was before the surge: people basically choosing the taliban over the government.
Afghan defectors turn to the Taliban - 15 Oct 08 - YouTube[/URL]
Afghan mayor turns Taliban leader - 17 Oct 08 - YouTube[/URL]

All the surge has done is increase violence not decrease it on both sides.
The Afghan surge was based on the iraqi surge model. go in with troops and start rooting out militiants, providing financial assistance to the people, start a propaganda war by sayingsing that the militants are foreigners imposing their will on the local people. Rooting out the militants was easy, but convincing the population that the taliban are foreigners is not working. At the beginning of the surge NATO was very adament in using the word taliban less and using AQ more since AQ has a foreign feeling to it. Once NATO realized it was not working, they started negotiations and started programs to weaken the taliban by providing financial assistance to people that switch sides.


Inmost rural areas one village who would be in a conflict with a neighboring village over land. Both villages have members in the ANA and the Taliban. They both use influence in the ANA and the Taliban to hit the oppossing village. The difference between the ANA and the Taliban is that the ANA is corrupt. They will only take action if they have a financial interest at stake while the Taliban will do thier best to create peace between the warring sides and in return the two sides will provide support to the Taliban by providing fighting men and sanctuary.

If one looks at the economics of all this, the Taliban has interest in creating peace because they need these people while the ANA has no interest in peace, their main interest is to have the US stay as long as possible and keep the money from america flowing in. The same thing Pakistan initially was thinking, to have the war last forever and have US AID coming into the country until they realized that this strategy is tearing their country apart.

[khushal]

Even the 50 nations was the same size as the Soviet invasion, there the entire Afghan population was involved and they won., even when the Soviets had air power. That shows us that if the Taliban were really loved by the Afghans, it would be like the Soviet- Afghan war.
?

This is a false statement. The afghan soviet war was much different. The whole western world and gulf arabs, iran were behind the majahadeen. not so in this case. They have no allies in this case. everyone is using the situation to siphon money from the american tax payers.

[faye]

if the taliban think peace is the most constructive option, why hasn't it happened khushal?

[Afghanistan2010]

if the taliban think peace is the most constructive option, why hasn't it happened khushal?

because US and its allies doesn't want peace in fact,they are waiting to kill or capture the leaders of the islamic emirate.

were not 10 000 killed who wanted peace in the north under the eye and bombs of the US and its allies.

That's tough to say. The Talibam are fighting 50 nations who use air power every skirmish.


What do you think of their fighters who die attacking a US Base? Watch this critical video from the 5:30 minute mark to the end and let me know what you think.

Takbeer Awaaz -The Cry of Takbeer! Part 4 of 4 - Video.mp4 - YouTube

This is from Bargmattal, Valley of Death,Nuristan,which was once called kuffristan for its deviant believes,now a hotspot of uprising against the Americans.

[khushal]

No I am admitting it's the locals rising up against the Taliban, You just admitted it yourself, the local vs. unlocal argument is your narrative. Playing around with terms won't change what happened.

why would people be afraid of the police officers when the Taliban have issued the threats and have actually beheaded people for noncompliance? This would make no sense. I don't need to convince you, I'm just showing the Taliban argument is bogus.

but you admitted that the taliban are locals so the locals are rising up against the locals = local dispute. point proven.

this is why people are afraid of the police.
Rape case in Afghanistan sparks controversy - 29 Sept 2008 - YouTube[/URL]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/wo...overnment.html

KABUL, Afghanistan — Lal Bibi is an 18-year-old rape victim who has taken a step rarely seen in Afghanistan: she has spoken out publicly against her tormentors, local militiamen, including several who have been identified as members of the American-trained Afghan Local Police.

there are hundreds of cases like these.

[khushal]

From the same province, Taliban threatening locals.

http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/04/22...ghazni-schools

for every story like this, there are multiple stories of afghan governmnet security forces abuse. such as the ones I posted above and this one:
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...833517,00.html

Sweeta tucked her hands between her thighs and began to rock as she told her story. The details emerged in a monotone, her face expressionless. Last winter she had just stepped out of her house in Afghanistan's northern province of Jowzjan to fetch water from the well when a neighbor approached her. He told her that her father was ill and had been taken to the hospital. He offered her a ride. When she refused, he threw her into his car, his hand over her mouth so no one would hear her scream. He took her to a room in the nearby army garrison. "And then he took off his pants," she says. "He raped me." Sweeta is only 11 years old.

[khushal]

if the taliban think peace is the most constructive option, why hasn't it happened khushal?

to gain support from people and to use the ability to bring a solution to a local dsipute between warring sides because they need that area for sanctuary and support is constructive but peace with NATO, thats a different issue.

here is an interesting analysis:
http://www.usip.org/files/resources/sr285.pdf

Interestingly, several respondents argued that the decrease in criminal issues was not due to an increase in the rule of law. Instead, they said, it was because so many resources were pouring into the country that local strongmen were spending more time working on securing these funds than trying to secure resources by fighting against each other.

what this statement suggests is that once those resources are dried up than local strongmen will be fighting each other just like it happened when soviet funds dried up back in the early 90's. history will repeat.

And this analysis:
http://www.bu.edu/aias/reports/AIAS_ROL.pdf

Indeed, the government’s incapacity and corruption are often cited as reasons
for popular support of the Taliban, who have touted their ability to resolve the disputes that

government-appointed officials cannot.

in my opinion, they can do it, they just dont have interest in doing it.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

for every story like this, there are multiple stories of afghan governmnet security forces abuse. such as the ones I posted above and this one:
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...833517,00.html

Jowjzan isn't Ghazni

[RevolutionThroughReason]

but you admitted that the taliban are locals so the locals are rising up against the locals = local dispute. point proven.


there are hundreds of cases like these.

Prove where I said the Taliiban are locals? and why would these Hazaras support the Taliban who used to rape them against other rapists?


That doesn't make sense.


Prove there are 100's of cases like this.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This is a false statement. The afghan soviet war was much different. The whole western world and gulf arabs, iran were behind the majahadeen. not so in this case. They have no allies in this case. everyone is using the situation to siphon money from the american tax payers.

Not really, about the same number of troops; Pakistan, the Gulf States, and Iran are still behind the Taliban

http://centralasiaonline.com/en_GB/articles/caii/features/pakistan/2010/02/12/feature-03

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39014669/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/t/report-iran-pays-each-us-soldier-killed-taliban/#.T84Y-NVDyGw

"We don’t care who we get money from," the treasurer was quoted as saying. He described the relationship with Iran as a "marriage of convenience." Iran is a predominantly Shiite country, while the Taliban is dominated by Sunni Muslims.
'For jihad'
"Iran will never stop funding us because Americans are dangerous for them as well. I think the hatred is the same from both us and Iran. The money we get is not dirty. It is for jihad," the treasurer told Amoore.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/243038

http://times247.com/articles/taliban-leaders-set-up-fundraising-hotlines

it seems your claim is based on false premises.