My reaction on Soldat Amir (An apostate Pashtun nationalist and house-negro) in Pasht

[MostafaM]

As far as I can see, this tit-for-tat actions between Maiwand and Soldat Amir are radicalising both of them.

It would be wise that both parties and their supporters cool down a little bit.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Just to clear something up, Robert Pape has no connection to the ADL. I think this document suffices to show his relationship with them or at least their view of him is quiet the opposite of Soldat's slur against this excellent academician who has done the world a service by compiling the universal data set of suicide bombing:

http://www.adl.org/media_watch/newsp...18-NYTimes.htm

[roadrunner]

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=26236

Here is the link.

Always remember my friend... things sound comforting... but when the narrative matches an utter lack of common sense regarding the ground level realities in reference to the temperment of the Afghan rural masses... such ideologies as his are nothing more than comfort food for Afghan Expatriots that want to dominate their country and "carry the white man's burden for their little brown brother, for American interventionists or for Pakistani experimenters.

pakistan gets an undeservingly bad rep on here. every country tries to manipulate their neighbours and have friendly governments. the pashtuns happen to be the majority in afghanistan and have ties with pakistan from their association with each other during the afghan-soviet war.

if the likes of the moderate better educated people with money did not flee the country, the pakistanis might have armed them instead of the mujahideen. if the mujahideen were not armed by pakistan it is likely the civil war would have continued.

with hindsight you might say it was better. but to have a civil war on your doorstep is not in any country's interest. what would you, as leader of pakistan, have done differently?

[Karachi]

pakistan gets an undeservingly bad rep on here. every country tries to manipulate their neighbours and have friendly governments. the pashtuns happen to be the majority in afghanistan and have ties with pakistan from their association with each other during the afghan-soviet war.

if the likes of the moderate better educated people with money did not flee the country, the pakistanis might have armed them instead of the mujahideen. if the mujahideen were not armed by pakistan it is likely the civil war would have continued.

with hindsight you might say it was better. but to have a civil war on your doorstep is not in any country's interest. what would you, as leader of pakistan, have done differently?

average pakistani people may get bad rep but our military/ISI/government and the people who support these institutions deserve all the bad rep, simply because they have done nothing but harm to the country itself and the region itself.

[roadrunner]

so what would you have done differently in the case of the civil war in afghanistan? allow the civil war to continue?

i might agree there's other areas where the insititutions have done harm to the country and region but in the case of trying to end the civil war, what would you have done differently to end it?

[Karachi]

so what would you have done differently in the case of the civil war in afghanistan? allow the civil war to continue?

First of all, it should never been our business to go there, but if pakistan needed to help, they should have help unite the country, rather then just divide the country further on ethnic lines. we only supported taliban instead of supporting every body living in the country and now look what is happening, every thing is back firing on us, every body hates us. We should have worked to make afghanistan stable and a peaceful country, so we could have great neighbor, but yet the stupid ISI generals decided to do the exact opposite

[roadrunner]

First of all, it should never been our business to go there, but if pakistan needed to help, they should have help unite the country, rather then just divide the country further on ethnic lines. we only supported taliban instead of supporting every body living in the country and now look what is happening, every thing is back firing on us, every body hates us. We should have worked to make afghanistan stable and a peaceful country, so we could have great neighbor, but yet the stupid ISI generals decided to do the exact opposite

how does that answer the question i posed?

you answered, "i would have supported everybody"

So you would have supported the northern alliance as well as the Taliban? That would have prolonged the war. that would not have created a stable, peaceful country. ending the war quickly would be the only option to stabilize it.

I asked you what you would have done differently to stop the civil war in Afghanistan. Your answer would have increased the fighting, the destruction, not decreased it

any other geniuses on here can give me ideas as to what they would have done if they were leader of pakistan?

[Karachi]

^ I didn't say I would support Taliban or Northern Alliance, what I would do is support the people in the country from every back ground who want peace and make those people stronger, instead of making taliban warlords or northern alliance warlords stronger.

The civil war in afghanistan or any other country can only be stopped by talking to all sides, not arming and supporting only one side like pakistanis did and in fact still are doing

[roadrunner]

^ I didn't say I would support Taliban or Northern Alliance, what I would do is support the people in the country from every back ground who want peace and make those people stronger, instead of making taliban warlords or northern alliance warlords stronger.

The civil war in afghanistan or any other country can only be stopped by talking to all sides, not arming and supporting only one side like pakistanis did and in fact still are doing

if you did not arm the taliban, but allowed iran or russia to arm the northern alliance side, they would massacre the pashtuns until total domination was reached.

your gandhi like approach is the stuff of dreams. it would have been a worse massacre and a redistribution of power that would not be sustained.

do you think the domination of afghanistan by the northern alliance would have been any better than domination by the Taliban? explain why.

[Karachi]

no, that will be wrong too obviously. My point is, every side has played afghanistan for their advantage, be it pakistanis or others. There was a time when afghanistan was relatively peaceful, the real civil war only started when the war and drug lords from all sides started fighting each other after the soviet invasion was over.

Also btw, what has supporting one side done for pakistan? what good has it done? we are in such a mess because of our wrong policies.

[roadrunner]

let's first talk about the civil war. if pakistan did not arm the pashtuns, what would have happened to them? the pashtuns will try to beat an iranian and russian backed northern alliance and get massacred in the process. pakistan armed the pashtuns, a balance was achieved and those sorts of massacres did not take place.

if you want to go back before this, if pakistan did not let the afghans have strategic depth in pakistan, the pashtuns would either have to accept soviet rule or be massacred. they did not accept soviet rule, so it did save lives so would you say it was not worth it?

if the pashtuns would be happy to live under soviet rule there would be no problem.

[roadrunner]

i don't see how you can complain about pakistan government policy with respect to this, other aspects of pakistan government policy have been very very bad. for this, i've not seen a good explanation why.

[Karachi]

^ what ever happend during the soviet invasion is history, dont forget in those days the mujahideens were united, there was no civil war in those days. The civil war started in the 90s

It would have been better for pakistan to just talk to northern alliance, Taliban and whatever other factions and at least try for peace, we didn't even try for peaceful resolutions, that is the problem. we just supported one side, which crushed the northern alliance and god knows how many were killed on their side. This is the reason the tajiks in afghanistan have deep hatred for pakistan, because in their eyes we armed the taliban which killed so many of them and destroyed afghanistan to rubble. Imagine if you were a Tajik afghan, would you love pakistan then? Their hatred of pakistan is totally justified. Supporting Taliban has done no good for pakistan or afghanistan and it has created much more divisions with in afghanistan


infact listen to this guy from the 90's, he is a pashtun guy who was brainwashed by pakistani mullahs and ISI, he speaks the truth:

illegal Pakistani Pathan/Punjabi Terrorists captured in Afghanistan by Shora-e Nezar Warriors - YouTube

[roadrunner]

so you wouldnt have armed the pashtuns and let them get massacred by the northern alliance?

[MostafaM]

Roadrunner,

no one was massacring the Pashtuns.

The Northern Alliance wasn´t even able to get into Maidan Shar 20 km away from Kabul, let the Pashtun heartland alone.

There were massive conflicts with the Hazaras in Kabul and Ghazni but if Pashtuns unite, even if ONE tribe unites, nothing on the surface of this planet can stop them.

The Kuchis dealt with the Hazaras their way.

The problem was that the Tajiks and the Pashtuns were used by regional powers to achieve their strategic aimes: Saudis and Pakistan on the one side, trying to containe Iran, Russia, India and Iran on the other side, trying to push back political Islam, Sunni Islam and threatening of Islamic resistance in centrale asia.

It´s stupid to fight your wall-to-wall neighbour for the benefit of a neighbour living down the street......