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Why US/NATO doesn't capture Mullah Umar?

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  • #16
    Well I don't know if you’ve ever read my previous posts. I had a long back and forth explaining the Taliban setup and organization, nevertheless, I'll keep it short, here goes:

    The Afghan Taliban (AT) began as a grassroots. pan-Pashtun vigilante movement in Afghanistan, which subsequently grew into an organized party. Eventually other Mujahideen era leaders from all ethnic groups began joining it, albeit for a short period. This was probably because of the ethnic imbalance in favor of the Pashtuns, and also the heavy presence of pak intelligence. All the Talib training "academies" and "recruitment centers" (code for Madrassa) were on the pakistan side of the border, who-bearing in mind their "strategic depth" policy- were obviously going to malign the other ethnic groups.

    When NATO invaded, the AT was scattered and AQ (reason why they went in) was dismantled, except for a few who crossed the Durand with the AT. Now there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the AT were going to give up OBL, except the only stumbling block was that should they give him up, they'd lose international legitimacy in the eyes of the only other two states (Saudi Arabia and UAE), except pakistan, which recognized them.

    Well OBL and his cohorts made it along the border. Members of the ISI and pak army would use them as bargaining chips against the AT or NATO. Of course, when they took their leaders and sent them to secret military sites (OBL), they left a vacuum among the followers who instantly retaliated against the pakistani state. This forced the pakistanis to operate in FATA, which in turn led to the creation of the TTP(I won't go through all the specific events; if you want you can check my other posts).

    The AT, contrary to popular perception, is not a uniform and defined unit. Instead it comprises of different warlords and factions (Haqqani, Bittani, , who may not even care about the pakistanis, but appreciate the aid and cover.

    Now dux of the AT, Molla Omar, had close links with the intelligence leaders in the pak military. He got the refuge he wanted. What he didn't take into account was that the he would also eventually become a bargaining chip to be used by the pakistani military against NATO. But what the pakistanis underestimated was the willingness of the AT to escape from under their banner and seek negotiations, entering the political fray of Afghanistan as a legitimate party.

    The Americans made the mistake of maligning the Pashtuns, and labeling them as Taliban sympathizers, but immediately sought to rectify it after leaders such as Ghani Baradar (killed by the ISI) initiated a line of communication in a bid to come to a settlement. (Not to mention NATO overestimated itself)

    Now to answer the question, why the US hasn’t taken out Omar like they did OBL? Well, primarily because the top brass in the pak army was not responsible for giving OBL cover. (I go through the pak army structure in some of my previous posts as well). Intel officers, no higher than Colonel with extremely fundamentalist leanings were responsible. While in Omar’s case, the top brass is very much aware and keep tabs on him 24/7. But that’s only one of the reasons why the US won’t take him out.

    The other happens to be the heavy presence of AT leaders, members and sympathizers openly yet secretly (know what I mean) embedded in the Afghan mainstream. Should they take out Omar, all the progress done with these individuals so far would be immediately reversed, thus derailing the Afghan peace process and reigniting the highly likely prospect of another civil war.

    I hope that helps.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by az4er View Post
      When NATO invaded, the AT was scattered and AQ (reason why they went in) was dismantled, except for a few who crossed the Durand with the AT. Now there is a lot of evidence that suggests that the AT were going to give up OBL, except the only stumbling block was that should they give him up, they'd lose international legitimacy in the eyes of the only other two states (Saudi Arabia and UAE), except pakistan, which recognized them.
      Im not following the logic here. I never heard they wanted to give him up, I heard they were going to ask him to leave but said they could not find him. OBL was a declared enemy of the saudis and UAE, why would the taliban lose legitimacy with them if they gave up OBL. pakistan even asked the taliban to give him up.


      Now to answer the question, why the US hasn’t taken out Omar like they did OBL? Well, primarily because the top brass in the pak army was not responsible for giving OBL cover. (I go through the pak army structure in some of my previous posts as well). Intel officers, no higher than Colonel with extremely fundamentalist leanings were responsible. While in Omar’s case, the top brass is very much aware and keep tabs on him 24/7. But that’s only one of the reasons why the US won’t take him out.
      why would they not keep tabs on OBL 24/7 because he would be a bigger bargaining chip than Omar with NATO. I do agree that Omar is more important to the pakistani establishment than OBL, but for NATO, OBL is the main man they wanted.

      The other happens to be the heavy presence of AT leaders, members and sympathizers openly yet secretly (know what I mean) embedded in the Afghan mainstream. Should they take out Omar, all the progress done with these individuals so far would be immediately reversed, thus derailing the Afghan peace process and reigniting the highly likely prospect of another civil war.
      .
      this is a more recent developement. why didnt they take him out the eight years before NATO wanted peace negotiations.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by roadrunner View Post
        Important question. Do you believe Pashtuns are docile people that can be controlled?
        In the words of sheurer "you can pay an Afghan, but he will do what he wants anyway."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by khushal View Post
          Im not following the logic here. I never heard they wanted to give him up, I heard they were going to ask him to leave but said they could not find him. OBL was a declared enemy of the saudis and UAE, why would the taliban lose legitimacy with them if they gave up OBL. pakistan even asked the taliban to give him up.


          why would they not keep tabs on OBL 24/7 because he would be a bigger bargaining chip than Omar with NATO. I do agree that Omar is more important to the pakistani establishment than OBL, but for NATO, OBL is the main man they wanted.



          this is a more recent developement. why didnt they take him out the eight years before NATO wanted peace negotiations.
          Pakhair Khushal Khan! Hope you're doing well.

          Lets see:

          1) Should have clarified that one. Most factions within the AT wanted OBL out. Saudi Arabia and Libya, are today and then, the largest breeding grounds for members of AQ, which makes it very likely that there are members or sympathizers present in the highest annals of the Saudi and UAE regimes. Also, giving up AQ may be perceived as a witch hunt against all Arab fighters in Afghanistan (there were others). OBL was a declared enemy on paper, he had great support in the Gulf States. He brought in alot of money into Afghanistan, which was really important because they couldn't trade with anyone else. Plus he was spreading the Saudi states interpretation of Deen. His family is still pretty chummy with the monarchy. Many even attribute the ISI as being the reason why OBL wasn't given up.

          More importantly, after the US invaded, and pakistan, having already declared its support in the WoT; many AT folks gave refuge to the remnants of the AQ, primarily because they were among the only allies they had left. So, while they wanted to get rid of them before, they grew closer to them only after the US invaded and pakistan announced its "support".

          2) Well like I mentioned, the knowledge that OBL was in Abbotabad need not necessarily be known to the top brass of the army. The more fringe, fundamentalist factions of the army are seen as facilitating his movements, in the hopes of using him as a bargaining chip for the AT.

          3) Exactly for this reason. The pak army was well aware that the NATO mission wouldn't succeed. Its one of the reason why Musharraf, like Zia and the Soviets before him, jumped on the WoT support bandwagon so quickly. Killing OBL would mean that the money supply would be immediately cut and at the time (post 1998 nuclear tests and Kargil conflict) the pakistan government was facing crippling economic sanctions. It was only a few years later the US realized fully and produce measures. against the duplicity of the pakistani military.

          Comment


          • #20
            The reason why they can't get Mullah Omar is simply because, they can't. There is no magic cave where he is hiding. Fact remains no one know what he looks like. He can walk into a bazar, sell tomatoes there the whole day, and you wouldn't know. OBL couldn't do that. Most Taliban leaders are unknown, there are no images of them, no DNA to compare with, they have extended local and familial connections. The are locals to the region. There have been fugitives in America hiding in the American wilderness among their local kin escaping the law for decades.

            Baitullah Maseed, again, before that Televised interviewed roamed a free man. After that interview his identity was confirmed and killed within days. Prior to that there were so many Baituallah Maseed possibles:





            After this interview:



            Identity confirmed. He was killed.


            Now you can go google Mullah Omar, you get a dozen possible looks.

            Comment


            • #21
              Possible Mullah Omar, these are all "verified" news images of him.


















              Which one should they look for? How do they know they got the right how, who do they compare him to, to what? Do they have his DNA?

              Comment


              • #22
                Actually he's under the watchful eye of big brother ISI; a couple of years back he was taken to a secret medical facility in karachi after suffering a heart attack. It was all on the local news but was pulled after a few hours. Even the journalist Saleem Shahzad was supposed to have knowledge of sensitive information regarding Omar, along with the PNS Mehran attack. He went to one of those bases shortly after enduring freedom. He's most probably still in karachi, like Baradar was. News still comes out of some army officer having met him but its immediately put under wraps.

                You could be right however. Its just one of those things like OBL; people thought he was long dead and lo and behold, there he is, in Abbotabad of all places! Totally mind-boggling!

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                • #23
                  Only the first 2 of the images above seem to have anu connection to Mullah Omar.
                  Some of the rest are WAY off -

                  That is a good point about lack of DNA or Iris Scans [those noxious, intrusive things]

                  As for Heavenly Protection of COURSE I mean from Allah [swt] not any human.

                  But undeniably the ISI MUSt probably be helping him.
                  But what if they don't know his true location, EITHER -
                  but want to fake it so that they will have their wish to be
                  a powerful intermediary in the theoretical - who knows how serious
                  those are, anyway? - negotiations [I would call it more
                  arguing back and forth, not anything refined or diplomatic]
                  between US and Taliban-Emirate II.

                  khushal made some good points : really, WHY HAVEN'T the Arabs
                  EVER done ANYTHING to dislodge israeli -U.S. rule of Palestine?

                  I can see better why Pakistanis haven't liberated Kashmir.

                  Above comment: why would you EVER believe the RIDICULOUS
                  "Abbottabad SCAM " ??

                  It's laughably staged and promoted around the world so that
                  all people are meant to believe it was a FACT.
                  Instead of a clumsy sham.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Catya Sher View Post
                    Only the first 2 of the images above seem to have anu connection to Mullah Omar.
                    Some of the rest are WAY off -

                    That is a good point about lack of DNA or Iris Scans [those noxious, intrusive things]

                    As for Heavenly Protection of COURSE I mean from Allah [swt] not any human.

                    But undeniably the ISI MUSt probably be helping him.
                    But what if they don't know his true location, EITHER -
                    but want to fake it so that they will have their wish to be
                    a powerful intermediary in the theoretical - who knows how serious
                    those are, anyway? - negotiations [I would call it more
                    arguing back and forth, not anything refined or diplomatic]
                    between US and Taliban-Emirate II.

                    khushal made some good points : really, WHY HAVEN'T the Arabs
                    EVER done ANYTHING to dislodge israeli -U.S. rule of Palestine?

                    I can see better why Pakistanis haven't liberated Kashmir.

                    Above comment: why would you EVER believe the RIDICULOUS
                    "Abbottabad SCAM " ??

                    It's laughably staged and promoted around the world so that
                    all people are meant to believe it was a FACT.
                    Instead of a clumsy sham.
                    I met the first person-the Abbotabad DCO (District Coordination Officer)-who walked into that "compound", which is in a residential area, barely a few miles away from the Kakul academy. Upon entering he was confronted by a group of young women with children who told to him about what had just happened.

                    Now I know exactly what you're going to say. Maybe they're a part of the MK Ultra program? Or maybe they could be Androids from Area 51? Or they could be CIA operatives? etc.

                    Quite frankly, I don't know. But what I do know is that the people I spoke with, who were on the scene during and after the whole incident took place were the real deal-having known some of them for years.

                    I'd suggest we hold off on this sort of discussion, seeing as there's no evidence or claims to back them up, and stick to the topic at hand.

                    I've already stated I believe Omar is in ISI custody, and that there is a great deal of evidence which indicates as such. But with most things like this, there is always room for error.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by az4er View Post
                      Pakhair Khushal Khan! Hope you're doing well.

                      Lets see:

                      1) Should have clarified that one. Most factions within the AT wanted OBL out. Saudi Arabia and Libya, are today and then, the largest breeding grounds for members of AQ, which makes it very likely that there are members or sympathizers present in the highest annals of the Saudi and UAE regimes. Also, giving up AQ may be perceived as a witch hunt against all Arab fighters in Afghanistan (there were others). OBL was a declared enemy on paper, he had great support in the Gulf States. He brought in alot of money into Afghanistan, which was really important because they couldn't trade with anyone else. Plus he was spreading the Saudi states interpretation of Deen. His family is still pretty chummy with the monarchy. Many even attribute the ISI as being the reason why OBL wasn't given up.

                      More importantly, after the US invaded, and pakistan, having already declared its support in the WoT; many AT folks gave refuge to the remnants of the AQ, primarily because they were among the only allies they had left. So, while they wanted to get rid of them before, they grew closer to them only after the US invaded and pakistan announced its "support".

                      2) Well like I mentioned, the knowledge that OBL was in Abbotabad need not necessarily be known to the top brass of the army. The more fringe, fundamentalist factions of the army are seen as facilitating his movements, in the hopes of using him as a bargaining chip for the AT.

                      3) Exactly for this reason. The pak army was well aware that the NATO mission wouldn't succeed. Its one of the reason why Musharraf, like Zia and the Soviets before him, jumped on the WoT support bandwagon so quickly. Killing OBL would mean that the money supply would be immediately cut and at the time (post 1998 nuclear tests and Kargil conflict) the pakistan government was facing crippling economic sanctions. It was only a few years later the US realized fully and produce measures. against the duplicity of the pakistani military.
                      pakhair Az4er, I hope you are doing well as well. your inputs are as always are very interesting.

                      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...an.terrorism11
                      Now this is a guardian article which dates oct. 17, 2001 which states that pakistani and US officials have said that the Taliban would give up OBL to a third country in exchange for a halt to bombing but the taliban deny such a thing, and it says that musharaf was very adament that a moderate taliban rule over afghanistan and does not want to see the NA in power. It seems that the Pakistanis wanted that TAliban to hand over OBL so they could stay in power.


                      But this CNN video dated sept 21, 2001 clearly have the taliban saying without evidence, they would not hand him over.
                      Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden if shown 9/11 evidence - YouTube[/URL]

                      you still have not convinced me that it was in the ISI's interest that OBL not be handed over since they clearly wanted the Taliban stay in power. Musharaf was doing everything possible including putting forth the idea of having a moderate taliban be part of a future afghan government since the US made it clear the hardline taliban has to go.

                      From what I have read it was the taliban that refused to give him up out of the pashtuwali code of saima(sanctuary).
                      Last edited by khushal; 02-04-2012, 05:48 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I am sorry, what evidence?

                        He took responsibility for all the attacks that his group had done.

                        Was OBL´s confession not good enough for the Taliban?
                        The only constant is change.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by khushal View Post
                          pakhair Az4er, I hope you are doing well as well. your inputs are as always are very interesting.

                          http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...an.terrorism11
                          Now this is a guardian article which dates oct. 17, 2001 which states that pakistani and US officials have said that the Taliban would give up OBL to a third country in exchange for a halt to bombing but the taliban deny such a thing, and it says that musharaf was very adament that a moderate taliban rule over afghanistan and does not want to see the NA in power. It seems that the Pakistanis wanted that TAliban to hand over OBL so they could stay in power.


                          But this CNN video dated october 21, 2001 clearly have the taliban saying without evidence, they would not hand him over.
                          Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden if shown 9/11 evidence - YouTube[/URL]

                          you still have not convinced me that it was in the ISI's interest that OBL not be handed over since they clearly wanted the Taliban stay in power. Musharaf was doing everything possible including putting forth the idea of having a moderate taliban be part of a future afghan government since the US made it clear the hardline taliban has to go.

                          From what I have read it was the taliban that refused to give him up out of the pashtuwali code of saima(sanctuary).
                          Manana Khushal Khan; likewise!

                          You're absolutely correct, except that the pak army isn't as uniform(no pun intended) as it seems. The fundamentalist presence in the pak army, especially in the mid-tier and lower ranks is considerable. Its usually people from these ranks that are utilized in liaison and operations capacities of the intelligence. Like Hamid Gul and others, many of these folks grew really attached with their friends in the AT and began making decisions in lieu of the more "moderate" and "progressive" central command. Nonetheless, OBL would have been given up either way, had the US actually endeavored to approach those channels; but thanks to the neocons and their "shoot first and ask questions later" policy, the possibility was completely voided.

                          Same goes for the ISI/pak army harboring of OBL. It comes as a shock to most when they hear that all the highest-ranking officers of the pak army were totally unaware of OBL's presence so close to one of their prime institutions. The responsibility for harboring him and other AQ personnel lies with the extremist wing of the military. As far as the mainstream and Musharraf were concerned the AT was the best thing that ever happened to them. When members of the intelligentsia captured many key AQ leaders, their followers who by now had earned the respect of their Pashtun hosts, hence the Nanwatai, were able to muster up enough local arms and support to target the pakistani state. This was mostly because of all they'd been through pre and post US invasion.

                          Note, that most of these leaders were sold to the US one by one.

                          But that was post US invasion; just months prior to Masoud being taken out, a Jirga of key AT leaders had discussed the possibility of deporting OBL and his cohorts. They were of course taking into account the possibility of losing key financial channels and the possibility of losing Saudi and UAE recognition. Those two states were no doubt complicit in supplying a constant stream of fighters to AQ. It was only after 9/11 that they and Qaddafi quit flouting the US and fell in line. Iraq on the other hand didn't.

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                          • #28
                            Brother resistance,not all posted pictures show Mullah Umar,due to some certain reasons i will not tell which one is the right.
                            High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation.

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                            • #29
                              due to some certain reasons i will not tell which one is the right
                              watch out talibans special wazir for special wezarat is among us ^^

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                              • #30
                                na playing with the mind of people is a good thing,you are my first fish that i caught.
                                High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation.

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