Non-Pashtuns independance?

[ScimitarXEdge]

I think it's unfair to attribute the Afghan success on Pakistan, it's unfair because it is inaccurate as Khushal said, it makes no sense that Pakistan have been humiliated by India but can humilate Russia who was and is multiple times more powerful than Inida. This isn't to say that Pakistan didn't take advantage of the Afghan success, of course they did; it's plain to see, but it was Afghans who fought for their freedom for their own reasons; not Pakistan's.

[Shayesta]

^ That's exactly my point. Afghan civilians (not those sold-out politicians or trainees) fought for their country, while our enemies took advantage of it and added fuel to the fire. All thanks to those traitors amongst our own people who corporate with them; From Massoud to Hekmatyar.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Honestly speaking, even right now U.S/NATO is taking advantage, and Russia too was also taking advantage. What we need is a new way of looking at our problems; And what that requires is looking at the global fabric and who operates and controls the operations of what goes on. We blame Pakistan but we forget who made Pakistan; and then we contradict ourselves by welcoming NATO. We say Our Afghans fought for no reason except because Pakistanis told them to, but we forget the reason Russia invaded was because it saw us as their territory.

[Toramana]

Honestly speaking, even right now U.S/NATO is taking advantage, and Russia too was also taking advantage. What we need is a new way of looking at our problems; And what that requires is looking at the global fabric and who operates and controls the operations of what goes on. We blame Pakistan but we forget who made Pakistan; and then we contradict ourselves by welcoming NATO. We say Our Afghans fought for no reason except because Pakistanis told them to, but we forget the reason Russia invaded was because it saw us as their territory.

That is factually wrong...Russians had not yet invaded Afghanistan that the so-called Mujahids aided by CIA were fighting the Afghan Govt. CIA motives were to provoke the erstwhile USSR into invading Afghanistan so it avenges the defeat in Vietnam.

You twist everything to fit your binary world view i.e., kufar versus Islam to disguise and promote your agenda of Arabo-Islamic nationalism (Arab nationalism with an Islamic cloak).

[Darweshkhel]

If there are separatists in AFG, they are not many. We have lived together for many hundred years, most afghans are bilingual and many regions are mixed. Tajiks and Pashtuns are brothers and should join hands against enemies of AFG. All nations that live in Afghanistan are called Afghans and are Afghan citizens. There are territorial and regional conflicts but they can be solved by communication. We must raise our children, educate them and teach them to live in peace as one single nation, with all cultural and linguistic facets, there are differences but we have also many things in common. We have a history of wars that our forefathers fought side by side against invaders, we have a tradition of Islam and we have a common flag. Pashtuns are already divided by the British, brothers are separated from brothers, sons from their fathers, why divide the rest of Afghans?

[Toramana]

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

Translated from the French by Bill Blum

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

[unknownprince]

[QUOTE=Shayesta;457080]@Khushal

Omar isn't fighting his own battle, he is fighting ISI's battle.

not true. There is no Afghan in Afghanistan that fights for Pakistan. They do not dance to Bhangra or wave Pakistani flag. They do not die with Pakistan flag in hands, but the declaration of their faith. They are fighting because they do not want foreigners in their land. This is something no one can deny.

Physically seen, the Taliban are indeed very strong components and as long as ISI has such strong components, there is no need for them to challenge NATO directly.

As long as foreigners continue their war, the Taliban will become more strong as Afghans for all times have been against foreigners.

Let's say he wins politically anyway, is there any guarantee that he won't repeat his own previous mistakes and the mistakes Northern Alliance is making today?

please elaborate on what you mean. The Taliban arose due to the infighting by the Northern Alliance and other factions. Crime was rampant, and civilians were suffering just like what is happening today. The Taliban were a response to all this chaos. They brought order, and stamped out crime, and yes they were extreme in their response because they had seen and witnessed all those crimes.

[unknownprince]

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

the guy is a complete moron who seeks to revise history. Replace the underlined words with US, Washington DC, and American empire, and you have todays outcome which is pretty clear.

The Soviet defeat had not much to do with them at all. It was an Afghan victory.

It is the people on the ground, not the fat man in suits who imagine themselves to be some sort of heroes.

There are hundreds of Charlie Wilsons.

and this moron now knows the outcome of this war too .

[khushal]

^ Pakistan already has half of Kashmir under it's thumb, mate. I am not saying that ISI is so ridiculously strong, it's just that Afghanistan's unity is so ridiculously weak that controlling our governments and insurgents for over the decades have become a piece of cake for ISI and any other enemy. India in present day is much more united, stable and stronger than Afghanistan. Do you think like the Afghan government the Indian government will sell itself out to NATO? And ISI's actions previously have become very costly in their present, they, nonetheless won't back out in Afghan matters as long as we have people in our government/military/insurgence/etcetera serving them. Simple.

Your response is no good. Who cares about half, that half was given to them by the British, India has the other half which is muslim majority and they can not do anything about it. The Afghan government never sold its self out to NATO. NATO invaded and installed people that did its bidding. But you only recognize the sellouts as the government, the ones that invite the invaders as the legit government. You have no idea about the ground reality in Afghanistan, the only thing you know is the stories of Kabul back when the commies where there, the good old days in kabul when the rest of the country was burning.

There are many alliances in the region that are inevitable to take hold whether the parties like each other or not. The Saudi's and other Sunni Arab nations would not hesitate to help the Taliban to take power in Kabul to curb Iranian influence eastward. Pakistan would be more than willing to help the Taliban to curb Indian influence to its northeastern border. The Chinese would be more than happy if America leaves its eastern border. These parties need the Taliban more than the Taliban needs them. NATO has realized the Taliban are not going any where, they are here to stay and a force to be reckon with which is the basic reasoning why they have decided to push for negotiations with them.

Scratch what I said above, its easier to believe the ISI controls everything, it even controls what you and I are typing.

[Alchemist]

we live in an age of Globalization;In reality there are no "Non-Imperialist countries"; Every global region except perhaps Rainforest Areas; have been taken over/exploited by the Imperial Order. It wouldn't have been better to live in a So called Muslim countryKuwait under the Slaves of Imperialists like Al-Sabah or other Slaves like Al-Saud. The global hegemony has interfered with the faculties of all societies and imposed dependency by their institutions everything we buy/consume wouldn't be much different than paying taxes. Living in a rainforest might make for a good escape but it won't stop the levy over the imperialist hegemony; nor will suicide bombing a bazaar.

You similarly are in Canada and are ALSO against the Occupation and your tax dollars similarly go to support the Imperialist Venture in Afghanistan. This is something outside of our immediate control; which makes your argument more a contradiction to your principles than my own.

I find it ironic you're talking about "Eating off of them" while selling Pork Products at Subway Sandwich shops that you run; but again this is a false representation of my Statement and a False Dichotomy at that. I never claimed that nor does my statement in anyway imply that We're here to live/eat off imperialists; we're in this condition because of imperialists; the dependence is imposed; and that's why we have no other strategic counter balance.

When I say Tajik I'm not talking about a National of Tajikistan, but people who the Tajik Nationalists are using to represent their cause. It is completely independent on whether I am an Afghan National, even though I am by default. Massoud wasn't "trained" by Russians he switched sides and acted as a rogue agent. He would go into collaborations and then fight them; and this is documented by even former Soviet Generals. You conveniently ignore Massoud's history of the many months he spent in Peshawar under ISI cadres tutelage. Just because he went against them towards the end doesn't mean he reformed against the evils of Pakistan; his sole reasoning for his animosity with Pakistan....They didn't give him all the money and weapons he wanted and instead gave them to Hekmatyar, Which means that Massoud was upset that Pakistan didnt favor him. Had they done the opposite; you'd have witnessed reality play out differently. Obviously ISI made strategic depth on account that Hekmatyar was Pashtun so they wanted pacify Pashtuns by picking a Pashtun representative; but that was the only and sole reason for the animosity.

You have to stop looking at individuals by mythologies and look at the context and circumstances within their situations.

You are the one always moving the goal post and twisting around the argument when your arguments are exposed stupid.

You said that it was alright to kill "farangees" even if they were non combatants just because they were in Afghanistan - to legitimize the massacre conducted by the legendary pashtun Akbar khan. And your asinine rebuttal is to compare it with me selling pork products in Canada? Oh yeah ...that is a real contradiction....tushay!

Months in Peshawar for training? Is this from the diary of your father or you've learned to read russian now? No...seriously...I would love to know exactly how he switched sides and I know you have the sources to that story so please don't hesitate to post them here. As far as I know he was the most successful military commander in the battlefield...despite not getting any of the aid funneled by ISI from CIA and GID.


This is really amusing... Hekmatyar was favoured by Pakistan because of Pashtuns in Pakistan? What are pashtuns in Pakistan if not sell outs? Are they "by default" afghan or pakistani?

This isn't about globalization...globalization has been happening for thousands of years. The adventures of Alexander in Afghanistan was also a form of "globalization". You give the impression that the whole world is dominated by one all encompassing powerful institution that controls everything...but beyoud the boarder meerika can hardly contain the rest of the world despite it's military prowess. Why Saudi or Kuwait? Why not Afghanistan or Yemen? Heck...you have no plans of leaving meeerikaaa that is clear as day light.

[ScimitarXEdge]

That is factually wrong...Russians had not yet invaded Afghanistan that the so-called Mujahids aided by CIA were fighting the Afghan Govt. CIA motives were to provoke the erstwhile USSR into invading Afghanistan so it avenges the defeat in Vietnam.

You twist everything to fit your binary world view i.e., kufar versus Islam to disguise and promote your agenda of Arabo-Islamic nationalism (Arab nationalism with an Islamic cloak).

Not as twisted as you're trying to convey; you may not have realized, but you actually verified my argument.

Why would Russia believe it has the right to invade Afghanistan if there are Mujahids/Islamists there? Why didn't they invade when Mujahid/Islamists started operating in the early 70's/60's. It was because they didnt want America moving in on "their territory". Obviously America knew this, and used it to lure Russia, but the fact that Russia felt this way in the first place, demonstrates they already had the intentions of molding afghanistan into a Vodka-drinking Brothel for Soviet Soldiers; something I'm sure you'd welcome since you have sold your ghairat and namous for the Materialistic illusion.

By you saying that Russia invaded because the CIA were funding Mujahids, EXACTLY proves that Russia saw Afghanistan as something it owns and hence can't tolerate other Imperialists intervening. You grant false legitimacy to Russia; which also demonstrates your agenda is not in favor for the people of the region.

This nonsense Arab-Islamo- Garbage propaganda is something Fabricated by Materialistic Neoimperialists; I know What your devious scheme is here. Mentally Colonized/House Slaves of Imperialism use these tactics to Distract Muslims from the real cause of global injustice to prevent Muslims from uniting and cooperating so they can maintain their Global Hegemony keep Muslims subservient by manipulating them to collaborate with them.

This tactic is very evident and easy to see; there is no Islam-Arab nationalism; there is only Islam, Prophet Muhammad(saw) said there is no difference between an Arab or Non-Arab except Piety; so you can save your Lies and brainwashings for Imperialist Masters Toramana; we Muslims won't buy it.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You are the one always moving the goal post and twisting around the argument when your arguments are exposed stupid.

You said that it was alright to kill "farangees" even if they were non combatants just because they were in Afghanistan - to legitimize the massacre conducted by the legendary pashtun Akbar khan. And your asinine rebuttal is to compare it with me selling pork products in Canada? Oh yeah ...that is a real contradiction....tushay!

Months in Peshawar for training? Is this from the diary of your father or you've learned to read russian now? No...seriously...I would love to know exactly how he switched sides and I know you have the sources to that story so please don't hesitate to post them here. As far as I know he was the most successful military commander in the battlefield...despite not getting any of the aid funneled by ISI from CIA and GID.


This is really amusing... Hekmatyar was favoured by Pakistan because of Pashtuns in Pakistan? What are pashtuns in Pakistan if not sell outs? Are they "by default" afghan or pakistani?

This isn't about globalization...globalization has been happening for thousands of years. The adventures of Alexander in Afghanistan was also a form of "globalization". You give the impression that the whole world is dominated by one all encompassing powerful institution that controls everything...but beyoud the boarder meerika can hardly contain the rest of the world despite it's military prowess. Why Saudi or Kuwait? Why not Afghanistan or Yemen? Heck...you have no plans of leaving meeerikaaa that is clear as day light.

Our resident brainwashed, conspiracy theorist who thinks Jews are the masterminds behind all evil and corruption in the world is yapping against a single corrupt institution behind what's happening in the world?

If anyone has been shifting goalposts here it would have been evident with your false dichotomy.

Your examples of ancient Hellenistic Cultural Exchanges is not "Globalization"; it was merely ancient warfare. Globalisation is a Hegemonic Venture. It's an extension of Hegemony over a Global sphere; not even Alexander tried to do this.

Globalization isnt one single Entity or Institution it is an Amalgam of Colonial and Imperial Enterprise from Capitalist Societies and their doctrine of Materialism.

Wazir Akbar Khan's actions weren't justified JUST because they were in Afghanistan; but because they were trying to gain Military and Colonial control of Afghanistan by sending an occupying contingent. If anything the fault of those deaths was the British, not Wazir Akbar Khan.

Your owning a Subway and selling pork contradicts your alleged Opposition to Ocupation you have in Afghanistan, and your logics for why Muslims who oppose the Imperialist order shouldn't be in Canada or America

I see NO contradiction whatsoever; only shallow and superficial understanding of those who think that way.

Your conclusions are based on your own false self affirmed premises; they have nothing to do with me.

Hektmatyar was favored by Pakistan because of Pashtuns in general and yes to some extent even in Pakistan; because of the "Pakhtunistan" issue.

Massoud did go to Pakistan; read the following.

http://andre.canessa.pagesperso-oran...biographie.htm

In the early 1970s he joined the Islamic movements (in 1973 he tried to draw some officers to the Islamic cause). From 1974 on, these movements had to face the repression orchestrated by the Daoud regime. Like many Islamic leaders, Ahmad Shah Massoud went to Pakistan.
He went back to Afghanistan in July 1975 to take part in an attempt to overthrow the government.

And yes of course as you so "ingeniously" deduced, my dad wrote this (sarcasm). Obviously Massoud went to Pakistan so he could enjoy some Chai-Sabz along the Khyber Pass (sarcasm).

[khushal]

You are the one always moving the goal post and twisting around the argument when your arguments are exposed stupid.

You said that it was alright to kill "farangees" even if they were non combatants just because they were in Afghanistan - to legitimize the massacre conducted by the legendary pashtun Akbar khan. And your asinine rebuttal is to compare it with me selling pork products in Canada? Oh yeah ...that is a real contradiction....tushay!

Months in Peshawar for training? Is this from the diary of your father or you've learned to read russian now? No...seriously...I would love to know exactly how he switched sides and I know you have the sources to that story so please don't hesitate to post them here. As far as I know he was the most successful military commander in the battlefield...despite not getting any of the aid funneled by ISI from CIA and GID.


This is really amusing... Hekmatyar was favoured by Pakistan because of Pashtuns in Pakistan? What are pashtuns in Pakistan if not sell outs? Are they "by default" afghan or pakistani?
.

Pashtuns in Pakistan wants Afghanistan to depend on them. It is there bargaining chip with the Pakistani elites. If you study Dauds pashtunistan policy, you would realize the harder he was with Pakistan, the more incentives pashtuns got from the Pakistani elite. It is a myth that Pashtuns are mere slaves of Panjab, the Pashtuns elite in Pakistan will always side with who ever gives them the best incentives. Currently the Pashtun elite have a problem controlling the situation because the people have realized that their words don't match their action, if they do not correct this, the instability will increase. Are they sellouts, according the to the Pakistani Pashtuns, it was us that sold them out, so it is a matter of opinion.

There is no evidence that Akbar Khan ordered the massacre, Many scholars agree he feared a fierce British reprisal if they all were slayed, the situation was out of his control. The wrath of the people is not always controllable.

As for Masood, provide me evidence that he was the best commander on the battle field. Who did you hear this from, the west after they decided Hekmatyar was uncontrollable and he was more controllable so all this positive media hype about him. Did you know that the french tried to put him up for candidate for the Noble peace prize. What a joke.

Is Ahmad Shah Masood a legitimate candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize?
instant reaction of Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan (RAWA) to this weird news was: "A number of precedents have proved that the Nobel Peace Prize is not awarded on merit. It is conferred upon the lackeys of the West. According to Sartre, it is awarded to Western writers and Eastern criminals! Masood had a deceptive personality. He belonged to the Jamiat-i-Islami that was an ultra-fundamentalist outfit. During his regime, thousands of women were raped in Afghanistan. How could a civilised nation like France do this injustice? We strongly condemn his nomination and urge the human rights activists to protest it."

If the Media in the West says good things about a person, obviously one has to look at why, was he a lackey, according to many he was more than a lackey.

[khushal]

I think our willingness to embrace honorable men like Ismail Khan should demonstrate our opposition to Tajik/Perso Nationalists and Massoudists that our reasonings are not based on Massoud's ethnicity.

Many Pashtuns like this guy, even the Taliban respected him. The Taliban offered him to join but he refused, When they captured him, they couldn't kill him because his hands were not bloody like the others. Even in Taliban prison, his Pashtun guards helped him escape. When he controlled Herat, it was the most peaceful area in Afghanistan, when he left Herat, the peace left with him..

[Alchemist]

Our resident brainwashed, conspiracy theorist who thinks Jews are the masterminds behind all evil and corruption in the world is yapping against a single corrupt institution behind what's happening in the world?

If anyone has been shifting goalposts here it would have been evident with your false dichotomy.

Your examples of ancient Hellenistic Cultural Exchanges is not "Globalization"; it was merely ancient warfare. Globalisation is a Hegemonic Venture. It's an extension of Hegemony over a Global sphere; not even Alexander tried to do this.

Globalization isnt one single Entity or Institution it is an Amalgam of Colonial and Imperial Enterprise from Capitalist Societies and their doctrine of Materialism.

Wazir Akbar Khan's actions weren't justified JUST because they were in Afghanistan; but because they were trying to gain Military and Colonial control of Afghanistan by sending an occupying contingent. If anything the fault of those deaths was the British, not Wazir Akbar Khan.

Your owning a Subway and selling pork contradicts your alleged Opposition to Ocupation you have in Afghanistan, and your logics for why Muslims who oppose the Imperialist order shouldn't be in Canada or America

I see NO contradiction whatsoever; only shallow and superficial understanding of those who think that way.

Your conclusions are based on your own false self affirmed premises; they have nothing to do with me.

Hektmatyar was favored by Pakistan because of Pashtuns in general and yes to some extent even in Pakistan; because of the "Pakhtunistan" issue.

Massoud did go to Pakistan; read the following.

http://andre.canessa.pagesperso-oran...biographie.htm



And yes of course as you so "ingeniously" deduced, my dad wrote this (sarcasm). Obviously Massoud went to Pakistan so he could enjoy some Chai-Sabz along the Khyber Pass (sarcasm).

Do me a favour you loud mouth punk ...stop saying things like this to other members ...

something I'm sure you'd welcome since you have sold your ghairat and namous for the Materialistic illusion.

I really regret bringing you here. You don't know toromana so stop talking shiit about him and have some decency.

now back to the topic - I already stated that masood went there ONCE...and returned just as quickly as he had left ...when the full scale assualted began to the time he died he never went back ...but you said he was there for 6 months to get training from ISI...which is obvious BULL****.

like everything else you've said so far

If anything the fault of those deaths was the British, not Wazir Akbar Khan.

Wtf? seriously? LOL


shallow minded and superficial? You got that right.


You are the one always hating on "the imperialists" and talking of destroying them and what not like you are batman...conspiring against the government that you are a part of. Yes, I am in Canada and proud to say that Canada is not an "Empire" nor does it boast of "imperial ambitions". I want those 2000 hapless canadian soldiers to return from that senseless war in Afghanistan. You live in America...and you are saying that farangees in Afghanistan deserve to be killed because they are there to coerce and subdue Afghans...meanwhile you are a farangee in America and in the bare minimum "suggesting" and "advising" for the same ...it's this kind of logic that is used by the think tank "geniuses" to justify the illegal arrest of "suspected terrorists" and subjecting them to tortures in off-the-grid-prisons ...yeah ..call it a 'conspiracy theory'.
Then according to your own vague and loose definition of globalization ...the expanse of Islamic empires in many times of history were also the same as the US is in it's scope and adventures across the globe. You prove toromana right in his accusations of an "arab imperialism"....you know how idiotic you sound then?

Get your mind right.



p.s - kushal...I don't know what you are ranting about ...nobel prize? lol...whatever