Non-Pashtuns independance?

[khushal]

@Scimitar
Whoever's soldier Baba was, at the end he had his own empire which was even joined by Tajiks, it was not an 'oppressing' Pukhtoon empire. Amanullah was the one winning independence over interference of the British, he did not sell the country. We got Abdur Rahman to thank for that. If we had (majority) Pukhtoons under Khalqis who sold Afghanistan to Communists, then we also had (majority) Tajiks under Parchams who did the same. If we got Taliban who sold Afghanistan to foreigners, then we also got Northern Alliance selling our land to foreigners. If sold-outs like Hekmatyar have destroyed Kabul for power, then so have sold-outs like Massoud. If Karzai is being an American dog today, then so is Fahim. And about the massacre of Indians and the British, once again, that very same Wiki claims it has not been confirmed that Akbar Khan actually has ordered any such massacre. Leaving aside the fact that even if they were killed then it wasn't for them being foreigners who came for vacations or anything, it had to do with the fact they were supporters of the British invaders of Kabul. Aren't you seriously seeing the difference here?

. Anyone disagreeing with me? Then bring forward your arguments, even I can jump to conclusions and false accusations.

First Kabulzada is a Tajik fascist. If he sees a Tajik Bachbaz in the act he will clap his hands and if he sees a Pashtun in the same act, he will call it evil. This is a sign of a Fascist.

Second, everything you said above is right except that for Kazai/Fahim gang, Nato is shooting down their opponents. Mullah Omar is fighting his own battles. The Pakistani Army is not shooting down his opponents. The Pakistani Army is neither capable nor have the courage of challenging NATO but Mullah Omar has taken up the challenge. Mullah Omar is not winning militarily in Afghanistan, but he is winning politically. Karzai/Fahim gang can neither win militarily(reason why NATO is there because they can not find a good enough slave in Afghanistan that can do the job) nor can they win politically(even with all the money in the world because the Afghans can not be bought). Don't be putting down Pashtuns so easily as a bunch of sold out idiots. The Pashtuns are the only ones in the World who have not been bought. I am not talking about every single Pashtun, I'm talking about in general terms.

In theory, every nation is influenced by other nations. No nation can completely isolate itself to a point where they are completely self sufficient. Every nation, every people, every society needs others to survive. It is irrational and impossible not to depend on others. I'm no fan of Mullah Omar or Karzai or Fahim, but these are the facts and stability can only happen if every party realizes the facts.

[Alchemist]

Alchemist, dude

I'm reading your post and I know most of the theatrics within it you don't believe as being valid namely " you yourselves are farangees"; you of all people should know that we're here in Farangi lands precisely because of farangi interference and exploitation of our lands and the Global Environment as a whole. None of this was really decided for us; we simply had few other options when it came to coming up with a counter strategy.

I acknowledge these ....but I also acknowledge Massoud was a Soviet Collaborator and was originally trained in Pakistan by the same ISI he alleged to be against. That Northern Alliance were essentially rape mongering oppressors; that the men of Kabul, who were yes mainly Tajik at that couldn't do anything about their wives getting screwed by British soldiers and begged Pashtuns to help them so this would stop.

Do you have that same brutal honesty?

You could have gone to a non imperialist country...but sure...it wasn't your decision when you were a young lad, it was your fathers. You still can move to a less imperialistic and oppressive nation than merikaaa ..so that you don't pay the tax dollars that supply the ammunition for the killing of innocent muslims. But instead you rationalize your continual presence there by saying that "hey...I am here because they screwed my country ...so I am here to eat off of them".


You talk too much nonsense brah ... "tajiks mainly in kabul" LOL ....you are no afghan...your father was ...but you are not. When in history was Kabul part of Tajikistan? Do you imagine millions of Kabulies had migrated from Tajikistan? Is that why Amanullah Khan lived in Kabul...his father and grandfather too? ...yeah ... Masood was trained by Russians to Kill Russians ... you are beyound ridicule now... How many times did Masood go to Pakistan? Do you know? Once...and they tried to kill him then ...even in his worst days he refused to run to Pakistan. He didn't even get a dollar from the ISI ...the ISI hated his guts! This is a known fact of history ...go ask any merikaaaan ...and they'll tell you the same. You have some black and white understanding of history...maybe your father doesn't like Masood ... and you just went around trying to rationalize his adopted views...who knows where you come up with such nonsense.

[Alchemist]

btw shayesta...

Durrani empire only lasted 20 something years...After the death of Ahmad Shah, his son could hardly keep it together.

Also Parcham was Pashtun dominated ...but since they were more from the urban centers they spoke farsi. This is a well known fact.

[khushal]

You could have gone to a non imperialist country...but sure...it wasn't your decision when you were a young lad, it was your fathers. You still can move to a less imperialistic and oppressive nation than merikaaa ..so that you don't pay the tax dollars that supply the ammunition for the killing of innocent muslims. But instead you rationalize your continual presence there by saying that "hey...I am here because they screwed my country ...so I am here to eat off of them".


You talk too much nonsense brah ... "tajiks mainly in kabul" LOL ....you are no afghan...your father was ...but you are not. When in history was Kabul part of Tajikistan? Do you imagine millions of Kabulies had migrated from Tajikistan? Is that why Amanullah Khan lived in Kabul...his father and grandfather too? ...yeah ... Masood was trained by Russians to Kill Russians ... you are beyound ridicule now... How many times did Masood go to Pakistan? Do you know? Once...and they tried to kill him then ...even in his worst days he refused to run to Pakistan. He didn't even get a dollar from the ISI ...the ISI hated his guts! This is a known fact of history ...go ask any merikaaaan ...and they'll tell you the same. You have some black and white understanding of history...maybe your father doesn't like Masood ... and you just went around trying to rationalize his adopted views...who knows where you come up with such nonsense.

Actually Masood was a collaborator with everyone, when it comes to opportunist, he is a classic example. He dd not fight the Soviets. He cooperated with them for money and even made films of fake clashes when both sides of the clash were his own men making fake evidence of firefights with Soviet forces so he could get money from the ISI and CIA.
read this:
Ahmend shaw masood refused to fight
RAWA.ORG: The Afghan Who Wouldn't Fight (Ahmad Shah Massoud and links with Russians)

Wait there is more:
Ex-Soviet commander unveil Masoud's secret pact
General Gramov, commander of ex-soviet invading army in Afghanistan, has revealed that present leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan Ahmad Shah Masoud had inked an agreement with Moscow that ensured safe passage to the former USSR troops through Salang and Panjsher valleys during the Afghan jihad.


Ahmad Shah Massoud, Qasim Fahim and other commanders of Shura-e-Nezar with Parchami (Russian puppets regime) army generals Nabi Azimi, Noor-ul-Haq Ulomi, Asif Delawar and others.

According to an Afghan journalist Sami Yusafzai, General Gramov has exposed many facts about the 10 years-long Soviet involvement and Afghan resistance movement in his took "Soviet Army in Afghanistan".
He reveals that when the first Russian troops left Hairatan on Afghan-Uzbek border for Kabul via land route in 1980, the soviets feared that the passage of the army through Salang valley and high peaks of Panjsher valley which were manned by the mujahideen of Ahmad Shah Masoud was not only difficult but also almost impossible. The army of famed Jihadi commander Ahmad Shah Masoud, Gramov said, could convert the area into graveyard for the Russian troops by only throwing rocks.
Gramov says at that critical time the then Khad chief Dr. Najibullah acted very shrewdly and contacted Ahmad Shah Masoud who demanded direct talks with the Russians. The Soviet General says they immediately met Masoud and signed an agreement with him that ensured safe passage of Russian army through the dangerous Salang and Panjsher valleys and thus onward to the southern, central and eastern Afghanistan.

[unknownprince]

Alchemist

"hey...I am here because they screwed my country ...so I am here to eat off of them".

This is not their country. America does not belong to the pigs and monkeys who inhabit it, but to the Native Americans, also known as American Indians.

This is for NOW a nation of illegal immigrants. InshAllah, one day they all get deported from the current gorrilla sitting in the White House to the previous pigs who sat there too.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You could have gone to a non imperialist country...but sure...it wasn't your decision when you were a young lad, it was your fathers. You still can move to a less imperialistic and oppressive nation than merikaaa ..so that you don't pay the tax dollars that supply the ammunition for the killing of innocent muslims. But instead you rationalize your continual presence there by saying that "hey...I am here because they screwed my country ...so I am here to eat off of them".


You talk too much nonsense brah ... "tajiks mainly in kabul" LOL ....you are no afghan...your father was ...but you are not. When in history was Kabul part of Tajikistan? Do you imagine millions of Kabulies had migrated from Tajikistan? Is that why Amanullah Khan lived in Kabul...his father and grandfather too? ...yeah ... Masood was trained by Russians to Kill Russians ... you are beyound ridicule now... How many times did Masood go to Pakistan? Do you know? Once...and they tried to kill him then ...even in his worst days he refused to run to Pakistan. He didn't even get a dollar from the ISI ...the ISI hated his guts! This is a known fact of history ...go ask any merikaaaan ...and they'll tell you the same. You have some black and white understanding of history...maybe your father doesn't like Masood ... and you just went around trying to rationalize his adopted views...who knows where you come up with such nonsense.

we live in an age of Globalization;In reality there are no "Non-Imperialist countries"; Every global region except perhaps Rainforest Areas; have been taken over/exploited by the Imperial Order. It wouldn't have been better to live in a So called Muslim countryKuwait under the Slaves of Imperialists like Al-Sabah or other Slaves like Al-Saud. The global hegemony has interfered with the faculties of all societies and imposed dependency by their institutions everything we buy/consume wouldn't be much different than paying taxes. Living in a rainforest might make for a good escape but it won't stop the levy over the imperialist hegemony; nor will suicide bombing a bazaar.

You similarly are in Canada and are ALSO against the Occupation and your tax dollars similarly go to support the Imperialist Venture in Afghanistan. This is something outside of our immediate control; which makes your argument more a contradiction to your principles than my own.

I find it ironic you're talking about "Eating off of them" while selling Pork Products at Subway Sandwich shops that you run; but again this is a false representation of my Statement and a False Dichotomy at that. I never claimed that nor does my statement in anyway imply that We're here to live/eat off imperialists; we're in this condition because of imperialists; the dependence is imposed; and that's why we have no other strategic counter balance.

When I say Tajik I'm not talking about a National of Tajikistan, but people who the Tajik Nationalists are using to represent their cause. It is completely independent on whether I am an Afghan National, even though I am by default. Massoud wasn't "trained" by Russians he switched sides and acted as a rogue agent. He would go into collaborations and then fight them; and this is documented by even former Soviet Generals. You conveniently ignore Massoud's history of the many months he spent in Peshawar under ISI cadres tutelage. Just because he went against them towards the end doesn't mean he reformed against the evils of Pakistan; his sole reasoning for his animosity with Pakistan....They didn't give him all the money and weapons he wanted and instead gave them to Hekmatyar, Which means that Massoud was upset that Pakistan didnt favor him. Had they done the opposite; you'd have witnessed reality play out differently. Obviously ISI made strategic depth on account that Hekmatyar was Pashtun so they wanted pacify Pashtuns by picking a Pashtun representative; but that was the only and sole reason for the animosity.

You have to stop looking at individuals by mythologies and look at the context and circumstances within their situations.

[khushal]

They picked the Pashtun Hekmatyar over Tajik Masood is because they knew that you cant run Afghanistan without the Pashtuns. Allying themselves with the Tajiks would have had reprecussions with the Pashtun population in Pakistan and also the vast majority of the people in Afghanistan. That would have been a flawed strategy for strategic depth in Afghanistan and stability in Pakistan.

[ScimitarXEdge]

exactly Khushal wrora; and that's why Massoud was upset with Pakistan; they didnt give him the money and weapons he wanted. Had they done so Massoud defenders would be singing Pakistan Zindabad. I dont understand why Massoud defenders would have such a rose tinted view of his moral character.

[khushal]

exactly Khushal wrora; and that's why Massoud was upset with Pakistan; they didnt give him the money and weapons he wanted. Had they done so Massoud defenders would be singing Pakistan Zindabad. I dont understand why Massoud defenders would have such a rose tinted view of his moral character.

They have no choice. There is no other Tajik leader. What the Tajiks should be doing is building a good non corrupt leader instead of trying to draw aspiration from a coward masood sellout, this is hypocritical and self destructive.

One of the reasons the Pashtuns are more successful than the Tajiks in Afghanistan is because they were smart enough let go of Hekmatyar and looked on to someone else. The Tajiks refuse to let go of Masood and this is a flawed strategy for them.

[ScimitarXEdge]

There are some good Tajik leaders. I would say Ismail Khan despite some of his tensions with others, has proven he's a sincere leader.

[khushal]

There are some good Tajik leaders. I would say Ismail Khan despite some of his tensions with others, has proven he's a sincere leader.

He is better than most I would say, but most Tajiks dont support him. When I get into discussions with Tajiks about leadership, they all quickly talk about Masood, I ask them what about Ismail Khan, they have no comment about the guy. Tajik power is mostly concentrated in Panjshir and he is a non panjshiri.

[Shayesta]

@Khushal
Omar isn't fighting his own battle, he is fighting ISI's battle. Physically seen, the Taliban are indeed very strong components and as long as ISI has such strong components, there is no need for them to challenge NATO directly. Let's say he wins politically anyway, is there any guarantee that he won't repeat his own previous mistakes and the mistakes Northern Alliance is making today?; Serving foreign interest? And about Ismail Khan, he was possibly the only non-Pukhtoon who was much more keen on Pukhtoons when they were being ousted from Mazar. He has proved his softness (as compared to many others) and that's what majority Herati people are by nature, soft.

@Alchemist
I wasn't talking about Baba's empire's duration, I am just talking about his empire. And yeah, I won't disagree that his son had absolutely no quality of his father, nor any capability and competency of father. And about the Communists, many members of the Parcham group were Panjsheris and those Pukhtoons who had completely integrated into Tajik society. That's why so many claims and doubts had occurred regarding Karmal's ethnic. Khalqis, on the other hand, were lead and formed by mainly Pukhtoons.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I think our willingness to embrace honorable men like Ismail Khan should demonstrate our opposition to Tajik/Perso Nationalists and Massoudists that our reasonings are not based on Massoud's ethnicity.

[khushal]

@Khushal
Omar isn't fighting his own battle, he is fighting ISI's battle. Physically seen, the Taliban are indeed very strong components and as long as ISI has such strong components, there is no need for them to challenge NATO directly. Let's say he wins politically anyway, is there any guarantee that he won't repeat his own previous mistakes and the mistakes Northern Alliance is making today?; Serving foreign interest? And about Ismail Khan, he was possibly the only non-Pukhtoon who was much more keen on Pukhtoons when they were being ousted from Mazar. He has proved his softness (as compared to many others) and that's what majority Herati people are by nature, soft.

So what your saying is that ISI is so powerful that they have beaten two superpowers in Afghanistan. If the ISI was so powerful why did they get bailed out in three wars with India by the US, Why did they lose Bangladesh, why can't they wrestle Kashmir from India. THey cant do all these simple things but they can defeat two Superpowers in Afghanistan. Dont make me laugh. The ISI is not as smart as you naive people think. The ISI has put Pakistan on a very destructive road that many scholars are questioning its survival.

The situation is more complex that what you can fathom. The Taliban and the Paki military depend on each other but they are fighting their own battle, they dont have paki soldiers on the ground in afghanistan shooting at their opponents like Karzai/Fahim gang does.

[Shayesta]

^ Pakistan already has half of Kashmir under it's thumb, mate. I am not saying that ISI is so ridiculously strong, it's just that Afghanistan's unity is so ridiculously weak that controlling our governments and insurgents for over the decades have become a piece of cake for ISI and any other enemy. India in present day is much more united, stable and stronger than Afghanistan. Do you think like the Afghan government the Indian government will sell itself out to NATO? And ISI's actions previously have become very costly in their present, they, nonetheless won't back out in Afghan matters as long as we have people in our government/military/insurgence/etcetera serving them. Simple.