dr najeeb speech on shah nawaz tanai

[khyaal]

Bacha, Lewnaye Zalmiya, as rationalists we would admit many things including some mistakes by Dr Najibullah Shaheed but who would make these ideology-driven people to concede any ground...One gentleman here claims Arabs never did any imperialisn when in domination (as if they are immune to that).

Toramana! Discussion here is not strictly for academic purposes. This forum is used more like a propaganda platform against pashtun afghan nation. So, please let academics a bit aside for a while. They wish to make black seem white and anyone who has a little bit of common sense and political background can understand this.

[Toramana]

Note my prediction...If NATO left Afghanistan, Punjabis will divide the south of Afghanistan in three zones with north-eastern provinces (Kunar, Nuristan, Laghman, Nangarhar, etc.) given to Gulbaddin, central provinces like Paktiya, Paktika, Khost, etc. given to Haqqanis, whereas the south i.e. Kandahar, Helmand, to Mullah Ummar...A good strategy to keep Pashtuns divided....

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What a claim? If the Taliban and OTHER Afghan groups have most of their crucial sanctuaries and bases of operations in Pakistan, then US would have controlled nearly all of Southern Afghanistan. This is not the case. If the majority of the Taliban are hiding out in Pakistan, then who is fighting in Kandahar, Laghman, Gardez, and Kunduz? Are their traveling donkeys fighting?

Again, I ask you, when children are killed, and families raise up arms due to badal, are they now Punjabi agents?

Even if a portion were utilizing Pakistan as a backward operating base, that is just smart strategy (you destabilize two enemies with "one stone" and see into both sides of a potential conflict). LOl, what would you do? Run into a hail of bullets and bombs? My friend, its like talking to walls. These guys are like the 3 stooges, just making whoop whoop sounds and grabbing eachothers spaghmaay.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Toramana! Discussion here is not strictly for academic purposes. This forum is used more like a propaganda platform against pashtun afghan nation. So, please let academics a bit aside for a while. They wish to make black seem white and anyone who has a little bit of common sense and political background can understand this.

Talking with you is like talking to one of those dolls you give kids where you press teh belly and it repeats phrases.

Me: Dude, its not working

You: Pakistan, Pakistan Pakistan

Me: OK, so why is not working? How come people there dont agree with you and they arent itching to split off and join Kabul governance right away?

You: Paki Paki Paki

Its almost amusingly sad. I had high hopes after meeting smart KP medical students that other things were going on there that would raise the standard. Sadly, I was wrong. Same old buckets of crap. Different era.

[khyaal]

What a claim? If the Taliban and OTHER Afghan groups have most of their crucial sanctuaries and bases of operations in Pakistan, then US would have controlled nearly all of Southern Afghanistan. This is not the case. If the majority of the Taliban are hiding out in Pakistan, then who is fighting in Kandahar, Laghman, Gardez, and Kunduz? Are their traveling donkeys fighting?

Again, I ask you, when children are killed, and families raise up arms due to badal, are they now Punjabi agents?

You know very well who are fighting. Its ISI and its stooges. Even a few hundred people can make million of population hostage and we saw this in Swat and we are witnessing this in Momand, Khyber and Waziristan.

[Toramana]

Toramana! Discussion here is not strictly for academic purposes. This forum is used more like a propaganda platform against pashtun afghan nation. So, please let academics a bit aside for a while. They wish to make black seem white and anyone who has a little bit of common sense and political background can understand this.

Khyaala, Barakzai is from Loy Kandahar...the abode of Pashtun identity and culture but with a different perspective...Actually, you cannot view the Afghan situation through KPK lenses...We have a sentiment against Punjabis...they have it against NATO/US for being the victim party...so you know, it is complex...

That is why I have stopped arguing with them on this issue...You cannot be insensitive to their sentiment...and believe me it is pretty widespread....

[unknownprince]

You know very well who are fighting. Its ISI and its stooges. Even a few hundred people can make million of population hostage and we saw this in Swat and we are witnessing this in Momand, Khyber and Waziristan.

tell that to the widower of the woman who was run over by US armored vehicle in Kabul along with her child last week, or the families in Kunar of the boys who were gunned down by US helicopters.

They have most likely all taken up arms (99% sure).

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You know very well who are fighting. Its ISI and its stooges. Even a few hundred people can make million of population hostage and we saw this in Swat and we are witnessing this in Momand, Khyber and Waziristan.

Yes, but you ignore the chicken and egg effect. The question is, where they already in existance and had goals of fighting an insurgency and merely derive Pakistani support? Or are they, as you propose, created in a lab, multiplied in cell culture, and fed the halva of Pakistan Pakistan Pakistan and then sent to execute some nefarious design? I prefer the former per its logic, as Pashtuns have fought many wars for even lesser reasons than NATO's presence and utilized religious sentiments to fuel an insurgency. Moreover, in any insurgency, even the American revolution, its not the whole populace that participates, but generally fighting age men. Ex, Subsequent American civil war utilized boys as young as 12 in Southern "insurgent" lines.

Your inability to even admit that a single soul out there might have picked up the gun for their own cause is absurd and loony. Sheesh, its like everyone who is against the secular cause saying: All secularists drink devil goat blood at night and bask in virgin wine. Its an absurd assertion.

Regarding taking arms and training from Pakistan... who cares? Once again, if someone shot my brother/sister and someone came along and offered me a means to get badal, and I was emotional enough about a cause, I might take em up. Perhaps then you ough to read Scheuers bio about Bin Ladin as he refused any CIA help whatsoever or ISI help and funded himself.

I see now that you live in virtual created reality... this is good news for your rugged and practical/pragmatic foes... because there are men who see the world as it is... and then there are folks like you that see it as they wish it to be. Who do you think win wars?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Khyaala, Barakzai is from Loy Kandahar...the abode of Pashtun identity and culture but with a different perspective...Actually, you cannot view the Afghan situation through KPK lenses...We have a sentiment against Punjabis...they have it against NATO/US for being the victim party...so you know, it is complex...

That is why I have stopped arguing with them on this issue...You cannot be insensitive to their sentiment...and believe me it is pretty widespread....

Thank you, that is all I was looking for, just a common sense thread off which to build a relationship. Now we have begun to understand eachother.

[khyaal]

Talking with you is like talking to one of those dolls you give kids where you press teh belly and it repeats phrases.

Me: Dude, its not working

You: Pakistan, Pakistan Pakistan

Me: OK, so why is not working? How come people there dont agree with you and they arent itching to split off and join Kabul governance right away?

You: Paki Paki Paki

Its almost amusingly sad. I had high hopes after meeting smart KP medical students that other things were going on there that would raise the standard. Sadly, I was wrong. Same old buckets of crap. Different era.

What amazes me is the fact that a person who doesn't know the very basic issue about Paki-afghan relations, that is the occupation of vast afghan land which compelled afghanistan to oppose Pakis membership in the UN, how is he able to comment upon afghan politics and afghan personalities?

[khyaal]

Khyaala, Barakzai is from Loy Kandahar...the abode of Pashtun identity and culture but with a different perspective...Actually, you cannot view the Afghan situation through KPK lenses...We have a sentiment against Punjabis...they have it against NATO/US for being the victim party...so you know, it is complex...

That is why I have stopped arguing with them on this issue...You cannot be insensitive to their sentiment...and believe me it is pretty widespread....

Toramana! You must know that he should have known the very basic issue in Paki-afghan relation which a ten years of young afghan child can tell you. This seems very intriguing to me at least. 'Tar Attaka afghan watan di'. Every afghan well tell you this. Only paki pashtuns don't know much about history.

[khyaal]

Toramana don't believe so blindly. lol

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What amazes me is the fact that a person who doesn't know the very basic issue about Paki-afghan relations, that is the occupation of vast afghan land which compelled afghanistan to oppose Pakis membership in the UN, how is he able to comment upon afghan politics and afghan personalities?

My friend,

There are some common sense things in the world. As a doctor, a part of what I looked for in pathological situations, as I learned medicine, was cyclical repetition of clinical signs. For instance, chest pain with some jaw numbness and left arm pain can portend a heart attack. An asthmatic usin accessory muscles is someone to watch very closely, etc.

So in this same way, when you look at the world through a historical lense, what patterns do you see compadre? Well, here is what I see:

Spaniards come to South America and Incas/Aztecs view them with caution and then mount an unsuccessful insurgency

Italians occupy Libya and Umar Mukhtaar initiates... you guessed an insurgency

Spain is occupied by Muslims --> Arab and then Moor.. and slowly but surely Spaniards eventually execute a bloody "insurgency"

China is occupied by multiple powers and then, you guessed, it... boxers rebellion/insurgency

Latin America is hegemonized by Yankees... and Che Gueva initiated an.. insurgency

etc etc. etc.

One need only understand human nature to understand what is going on in Afghanistan. As I have said, go visit the tribal areas. Go to some remote part of it... without much in the way of telecommunications. Go take a British soldier with you and give him a gun. Have him stand with some friends in fron tof the village and claim he is there to "fight a war on terrorism." See what happens.

In that same vein, there are two groups of Afghans. I derive from one unfortunately... a group of upper crust folks who did not do their duty by their country and stay when it needed intellectuals etc the most. They could have been Washingtons, JEffersons, Franklins... and instead they are basically Chalabis and Malikis equivalents. Rather, my father as well as Mr. Karzai ran away... far far away. So I understand a thing or two about cowardice and people that left the poor to do the hard fighting against occupation and aggression.

I find it sickening that folks who claimed high degrees from Kabul University, but who lived off welfare here and continued to try and take as much state money as they could now have the audicity to call themselves Khans and governors and the legitimate government of a people they left high and dry.

Its immoral and wrong, what Mr. Karzai is doing. One need not know anythng about UN charters and land grabs to understand teh basics my friend.

[khyaal]

tell that to the widower of the woman who was run over by US armored vehicle in Kabul along with her child last week, or the families in Kunar of the boys who were gunned down by US helicopters.

They have most likely all taken up arms (99% sure).

Beg then to the ISI and Punjabis who through their puppets converted afghanistan into a den of terrorists from the whole world. You seem to be like you know nothing about the very recent history and as if NATO has come here for some picnic.

Those who are engaged in a guerilla warfare against ones own government and on his own soil is responsible for the killings of innocent afghans since actually they use civillians as human shield and only they are the people to be condemned because they are in fact promoting Punjab's agenda of destabilizing and annihilating afghan state turning it into Punjab's colony.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Toramana! You must know that he should have known the very basic issue in Paki-afghan relation which a ten years of young afghan child can tell you. This seems very intriguing to me at least. 'Tar Attaka afghan watan di'. Every afghan well tell you this. Only paki pashtuns don't know much about history.

Ok if this is your dispute, I agree with you. I have never said the land should not be one etc. When I spoke initially here I cited complexities that the Afghans themselves had instigated in the context of the current war.

For instance, I noted that I find it revolting that Karzai terms the wazirs and mehsuds as terrorists, yet the Mohammazai dynasty, both Amanullah and Nadir Shah utilized their man power to secure the Kabul throne. So in my opinion, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. YOu cannot tell the Wazirs: by the way, intervene when we want you to because you are one with us... and then when they decide that they will fight holy war against Mr. Karzai and NATo, label them as terrorists.

I also am talking about current realities if that makes sense. My point is that Pakistan sustains its rhetoric via paranoia. A part of it is real per their past interactions with India... but a part of it was mild and self centered, such as their initial dispute with Afghanistan. Once we understood that we were unable to militarily secure FATA/KP, we should have shifted strategies. The Baloch and others such as yourself already feel disenfranchized. There is no need to give Pakistan further fuel and fodder to pursue a lame excuse for strategic depth. Without a common bogeyman (i.e. the ungrateful Kabulaay/Afghans or whatever we are called) the Pakistan confederacy will be forced to self reflect and Bugtis will arise within the Pashtun belt.

Take a look at that particular gentleman... why is it that Bugti, as corrupt as he was, was leading an armed insurgency. At this point, there is not a single nationalsit leader leading an armed insurgency amongst Pashtuns. That gives me empiric and anecdotal evidence that the KP region is not ripe for SELF intiated autonomy. That is the gist of my argument.

Basically, you need a modern day equivalent of an Ahmad Abdali who is native to the region and can harnass Pashtun culture in concert with religion and turn that gun back towards the Panjab and smash apart the yolk. As I stated, Ahmad Abdali was astute enough to be able to secure fatwas from Shah Waliullah to invade Delhi. Can you believe that?! That is brilliant, he was able to secure a means to take on the carcass of a dead empire taht was attempting to destabilize his own. And he did it all via using his brain and aligning Pashtunwali and Islam.

Your party has the goal of decouplign religion from pashto affairs as it belives that religion has been used as an opiate and as a means to govern the people towards the way the Panjab wants things done. THis is foolish and nonsensical and only awakes the suspicious nature of our people on both sides of the border. Instead, speak Abdali's language and begin to harnass the two in concernt to lethal effects.

Then brother, that saying you quote above will be come a reality and not some slogan to rally votes.