dr najeeb speech on shah nawaz tanai

[khyaal]

Well once again perhaps. The issue is whether the Afghan insurgency has a moral imperitive, which I believe it does..

What you call as afghan insurgency we call it a proxy Punjabi war to take control of afghanistan. We have seen them through all such fake insurgencies.

[Toramana]

Well once again perhaps. The issue is whether the Afghan insurgency has a moral imperitive, which I believe it does. From my end, I could care less about Pakistan and whether it internally destabilizes per its double game. My actual but prior unstead hope is that religiousity and Pashtun nationalism aligns (not with ANP adopting some sort of religious sloganeering because they are too far gone drunkards, sycophants, and generally inept peopl)... but rather the Pashtun insurgents decide to continue and eventually escalate against the Panjab after winning in Afghanistan.

ANP and PMAP are the real anti-imperialist and true Pashtun patriotic parties...That is why they are so hated by the Punjabi establishment and intellectual elite (and their Islamist allies), who waste no opportunity to malign /mispresent them....Anything Pashtun nationalism is dangerous for the Punjabi-defined Paki nationalism and must be dubbed un-Islamic (to make it controversial)...

Rest the Pashtunistan thing is right and I agree with that...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What territorial integrity to maintain? Pakistan is expanding its tentacles to grab afghanistan also besides the occupation of Pashtun Baloch historic lands which were not part of indian subcontinent.

I mean what the country views as its territory regardless of what you or I say is right or wrong about it holding onto it or existing. As I noted, Edge for example believes the whole construct ought to dissolve. I would say the same thing to Scimitar as I am to you. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing or you being a Tajik or me being a Pashtun etc It has to do with the fact that the world is, despite what people say, built on the rules being implemented by force. That is exactly why its counterproductive to give Pakistan a reason to want to maintain its idiotic strategic depth philosophy. Their military planners could not avert their loss to the Mukhti Bahini or India... so most Western planners agree that strategic depth goes only so far as to make sure India cannot make a vice grip. But right now, the only bargaining chip Afghans have is US guns and US force, which is utterly a stupid and proposterous situation to be in. As Toramana himself pointed out previously and his quote still exists here... no superpower is benign... it serves its own interests perpetually. For that reason, if you want to break the false nation state construct then you must use your mind and come up with a reasonable plan.

Trust me friend, this is my last word on the matter. Pakistan would probably have me killed much faster than it would you. Why? Because you offer it fodder for instituting perpetual paranoia, within its military apparatus and within even the KP proper. Thats a nonthreat emanating from a nonentity (i.e. a 4 foot tall kid turned into a 10 foot tall giant).

Finally, the US as a gun mentality is utterly stupid because the US has no vested interest or goal to ever destabilize Pakistan.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What you call as afghan insurgency we call it a proxy Punjabi war to take control of afghanistan. We have seen them through all such fake insurgencies.

Ok go on believing that in the face of data that shows that the southern Afghans/Pashtuns view the American occupation as an assault on Islam. The numbers dont lie. I reproduced the figure above. The idea that every southern Afghan that lifts a gun to avenge, say his killed cousin, or to remove someone foreign from his land, is a Paki agent is absurd. I refuse to engage that level of absurdity because it belongs in the realm of Flat Earth Society beliefs.

[khyaal]

but rather the Pashtun insurgents decide to continue and eventually escalate against the Panjab after winning in Afghanistan.

Why wait for winning in Afghanistan? Pakistan is a far more easy enemy to be defeated as compared to the US plus its Western allies.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

ANP and PMAP are the real anti-imperialist and true Pashtun patriotic parties...That is why they are so hated by the Punjabi establishment and intellectual elite, who wastes no opportunity to malign /mispresent them....Anything Pashtun nationalism is dangerous for the Punjabi-defined Paki nationalism and must be dubbed un-Islamic (to make it controversial)...

Rest the Pashtunistan thing is right and I agree with that...

As I stated before Toramana, think outside the box for once. You are like the American raised on Republican Halva and Democratic Mantwao. There are party politics and then there is just plain common sense. I have to go, but think about it. The ANP motto of dismissing religion is a mistake that Afghan Mellat is not keen to so openly make. Just as the republicans understand that religions can be harnasssed to mobilize the southern vote here... so too should those who seek to break down the walls understand that religion and Pashtun ascendency ought to align. There is no reason that we ought not lead the way where others have failed. We are superior fighters, we have demonstrated intellectual prowess with many scientists/engineers, and we have seen the face of the Arabs, Indians, Turks, and countless others and understand them better than they understand themselves. The time will come when we will lead if we choose to do so.

[khyaal]

Ok go on believing that in the face of data that shows that the southern Afghans/Pashtuns view the American occupation as an assault on Islam. The numbers dont lie. I reproduced the figure above. The idea that every southern Afghan that lifts a gun to avenge, say his killed cousin, or to remove someone foreign from his land, is a Paki agent is absurd. I refuse to engage that level of absurdity because it belongs in the realm of Flat Earth Society beliefs.

LOL. There are no such figures which could establish your argument. Most of them consider ISI and Pakistan responsible for the fake insurgency. The same argument was floated even against the people of Swat that the insurgency was popularly supported their but you saw what happened then.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Why wait for winning in Afghanistan? Pakistan is a far more easy enemy to be defeated as compared to the US plus its Western allies.

As I stated before, you have no grasp of reality when it comes to dealing KP because the data is absent. And as I asked, are you ready for a government to arise that is Pashtuncentric and dominated by us alone as it was? If not, then you ought not rely on historical constructs to justify your view on Pakistan.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

LOL. There are no such figures which could establish your argument. Most of them consider ISI and Pakistan responsible for the fake insurgency. The same argument was floated even against the people of Swat that the insurgency was popularly supported their but you saw what happened then.

I cannot help it that you cannot read alongside being unable to grasp reality. Are you really willing to stand behind the statement that not a single Pashtun of the south Afghan basin is fighting under the banner of a defensive jihad in his mind or for various other reasons (i,e, badaal)? I would like you to clarify.

"and that 40 percent of the population believed NATO was occupying Afghanistan as part of a goal to destroy Islam."

survey by the International Council on Security and Development

[unknownprince]

What you call as afghan insurgency we call it a proxy Punjabi war to take control of afghanistan. We have seen them through all such fake insurgencies.

Quick question, are the Afghans who raise up arms against US because their family members were killed in an airstrike or night raid Punjabi/ISI agents?

[khyaal]

As I stated before Toramana, think outside the box for once. You are like the American raised on Republican Halva and Democratic Mantwao. There are party politics and then there is just plain common sense. I have to go, but think about it. The ANP motto of dismissing religion is a mistake that Afghan Mellat is not keen to so openly make. Just as the republicans understand that religions can be harnasssed to mobilize the southern vote here... so too should those who seek to break down the walls understand that religion and Pashtun ascendency ought to align. There is no reason that we ought not lead the way where others have failed. We are superior fighters, we have demonstrated intellectual prowess with many scientists/engineers, and we have seen the face of the Arabs, Indians, Turks, and countless others and understand them better than they understand themselves. The time will come when we will lead if we choose to do so.

Who told you ANP has dismissed religion? It is a party just like any other party in Pakistan which is against theocratic governence. Even Mr. Jeenah's Muslim League was a secular and anti theocratic party. Today there are far more people supporting secular parties than (establishment sponsored) religious parties like JUI and Juma'at Islami in Pakhtunkhwa.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Quick question, are the Afghans who raise up arms against US because their family members were killed in an airstrike or night raid ISI agents?

Exactly. He has no grasp on how war works and how an insurgency is a collection of groups at times fighting for different reasons. Its not all one big ISI fiesta.

[khyaal]

I mean what the country views as its territory regardless of what you or I say is right or wrong about it holding onto it or existing. As I noted, Edge for example believes the whole construct ought to dissolve. I would say the same thing to Scimitar as I am to you. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing or you being a Tajik or me being a Pashtun etc It has to do with the fact that the world is, despite what people say, built on the rules being implemented by force. That is exactly why its counterproductive to give Pakistan a reason to want to maintain its idiotic strategic depth philosophy. Their military planners could not avert their loss to the Mukhti Bahini or India... so most Western planners agree that strategic depth goes only so far as to make sure India cannot make a vice grip. But right now, the only bargaining chip Afghans have is US guns and US force, which is utterly a stupid and proposterous situation to be in. As Toramana himself pointed out previously and his quote still exists here... no superpower is benign... it serves its own interests perpetually. For that reason, if you want to break the false nation state construct then you must use your mind and come up with a reasonable plan.

Trust me friend, this is my last word on the matter. Pakistan would probably have me killed much faster than it would you. Why? Because you offer it fodder for instituting perpetual paranoia, within its military apparatus and within even the KP proper. Thats a nonthreat emanating from a nonentity (i.e. a 4 foot tall kid turned into a 10 foot tall giant).

Finally, the US as a gun mentality is utterly stupid because the US has no vested interest or goal to ever destabilize Pakistan.

Weren't you the one who had initiated a thread llike" why afghans hate Pakistan" and then you forwarded an argument that afghanistan refused to recognize pakistan's membership in the UN? I still remember it. You even didn't know what a ten year old afghan child can tell you that Pakistan has occupied afghan land. You even claimed that you were an afghan from Qandahar. BTW, your alluding to Tajiks tells a lot about you.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Who told you ANP has dismissed religion? It is a party just like any other party in Pakistan which is against theocratic governence. Even Mr. Jeenah's Muslim League was a secular and anti theocratic party. Today there are far more people supporting secular parties than (establishment sponsored) religious parties like JUI and Juma'at Islami in Pakhtunkhwa.

Exactly. That ought to tell you something when you see comparable platforms being sold to the masses by agents who hug eachother in privaet (i.e. MQM leadership and Achekzai). Its all a farce. They peddle secularism and irreligiousity in Karachi and other Panjab centers because that is what they prefer... yet the view zealous but directed religiosity as OK for KP Pashtuns. They are deathly afraid of that gun turning back on them. As I stated, once NATO is gone, once the northern alliance is smashed to pieces, once Fahim and dostum are trialed for their crimes and Karzai is trialed alongside them, so too should one seek to put Zardari on block.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Weren't you the one who had initiated a thread llike" why afghans hate Pakistan" and then you forwarded an argument that afghanistan refused to recognize pakistan's membership in the UN? I still remember it. You even didn't know what a ten year old afghan child can tell you that Pakistan has occupied afghan land. You even claimed that you were an afghan from Qandahar. BTW, your alluding to Tajiks tells a lot about you.

Here you go again trying to deflect the fact that you are a Tajik at a Pashtun forum. Once again, the ethnic title Afghan is not yours to take as much as you cry and moan about it. Whether I hailed from Swat, Qandahar, Jalalabad, or Kunar makes no difference because I am still bloodwise more AFghan than you are. The consistency is clear and the thread flows just fine. My claims above are 100% in line with what I said before. We offered them the opportunity to pursue their stupid strategic depth policy. Instead, we ought to have sat back, made some popcorn, and watched the house fold in on itself when they had no common enemy on their border. The Bugti revolt showed in and of itself how unstable that house is. Instead, we pissed our pants and ran into UN meetings crying about some land that we had no military capacity to retake. That is called stupidity and your view is called perpetuating stupidity.