Ethnic discrimination infests Afghan army; Dawn news

[ComradePashtun]

Well pointed out the Paki propaganda spin, Khyaal lala. Believe me it will come to no avail, there is not much of maneuvering space they have there. As for the Afghan Army the officer level is heavy with Tajiks, while in the commanding heights Pashtuns are prominent. No one cares about the soldiers - and I would rather there were even lesser Pashtun foot soldiers so at least they are not dying on both sides. Foot soldiers are noting more than just numbers any way. Nothing to worry a lot will also depend on the political outcome if there ever was a settlement to the conflict. On the other hand contrary to what poster named Paikaar implies - the army has nothing much to do with politics either. Pashtuns have a very good presence in the commandos and special forces.

[ComradePashtun]

Also the national army is turning to become quite potent. Its ill wishers will find themselves surprised. The real ANA is not the exact what you see in funny youtube videos... very much to the opposite.

[Khostai]

^How is the real ANA then? My image of ANA and the police is that of phedophiles and criminals who are worser than those talib monkeys.

[khushal]

Also the national army is turning to become quite potent. Its ill wishers will find themselves surprised. The real ANA is not the exact what you see in funny youtube videos... very much to the opposite.

According to US governmnet reports, The ANA can not fight on its own. So what is this about potency.
In afghanistans history, the government was nothing without support from the tribes, and the tribes never gave support if they deemed the governmnet as a puppet.

[NokiaWnW]

From what i noticed in Kabul, there were less Pashtuns in the police force. I am not really sure about the current army.

I remember being told that in the 60's,70's you had to be Pashtun to be in the army or police force. There were certain criteria's:

1) You had to be Pashtun
2) You had to be tall and broad features
3) You had to be educated
4) You had to come from a respected family

My grandfather was in the army and all of my uncles served as soldiers before the Soviet invasion.

How the police and army in Kabul are now is totally different from a couple decades ago. Now many are besawad (illiterate) and nearly all are very dishonest people. I am speaking on my observation and experiences.

In the 60s and 70s the army and police were a mainly a Pashtun constitution due nationalist politics. non-Pashtuns had not chances to make careers. Many of them even changed their identity from Tajik Uzbek Hazara to Pashtun. When the Parcham fraction took power they shared the power with all ethnicities so the number and power of Pashtuns shrinked.

[MostafaM]

In the 60s and 70s the army and police were a mainly a Pashtun constitution due nationalist politics. non-Pashtuns had not chances to make careers. Many of them even changed their identity from Tajik Uzbek Hazara to Pashtun. When the Parcham fraction took power they shared the power with all ethnicities so the number and power of Pashtuns shrinked.

That`s absolut nonsense.

If I list the number of Generals, we would see how many non-Pashtuns were in the higher ranks of the Army. Atleast 3 Nuristani and 2 Baluch Generals are known to me, 1 Hazara General and many Darizaban ones. Back then, Generals were rare and not like today where everyone can become General or Marshall.

In the 60's and 70's the Army was transformed from an uneffective small army to an effective force to defend the national integrity of the country.
A large segment of the population was free from military service in that conscript army (Paktia and Loya Paktia) but many Pashtuns were were present in the middle ranks of the Army.

The reason (o-tone of the former Head of Harbi- Shwanzai (Leading Officer of the Military School)): Pashtuns from the rural parts of the country were happy to join the military school because for them the harsh atmosphere was ok, it was better than their lifes they lived in the villages. The people from the city centres reluctatnt because they couldn't take the tough life at Harbi Shwanzai.

The other thing that the royals knew is a simple thing to understand:
Pashtuns are the majority and they are a fighting force to count on. It's about their mindset.

Abdurrahman Khan knew that he couldn't count on the fighting force of the others when Panjdeh was invaded by the Russians and the population in Panjdeh didn't resist at all. That's why he transfered Pashtuns to the north.

If we talk about things in an historical context, we should keep in mind what the social and political circumstances were given back then.

[NokiaWnW]

That`s absolut nonsense.

If I list the number of Generals, we would see how many non-Pashtuns were in the higher ranks of the Army. Atleast 3 Nuristani and 2 Baluch Generals are known to me, 1 Hazara General and many Darizaban ones. Back then, Generals were rare and not like today where everyone can become General or Marshall.

In the 60's and 70's the Army was transformed from an uneffective small army to an effective force to defend the national integrity of the country.
A large segment of the population was free from military service in that conscript army (Paktia and Loya Paktia) but many Pashtuns were were present in the middle ranks of the Army.

The reason (o-tone of the former Head of Harbi- Shwanzai (Leading Officer of the Military School)): Pashtuns from the rural parts of the country were happy to join the military school because for them the harsh atmosphere was ok, it was better than their lifes they lived in the villages. The people from the city centres reluctatnt because they couldn't take the tough life at Harbi Shwanzai.

The other thing that the royals knew is a simple thing to understand:
Pashtuns are the majority and they are a fighting force to count on. It's about their mindset.

Abdurrahman Khan knew that he couldn't count on the fighting force of the others when Panjdeh was invaded by the Russians and the population in Panjdeh didn't resist at all. That's why he transfered Pashtuns to the north.

If we talk about things in an historical context, we should keep in mind what the social and political circumstances were given back then.

Pure BS! During the 60s and 70s every officer had to be a Pashtun. Non-Pashtuns had to adopte a fake identity

''Those circumstances explain why non-Pashtun Afghan inhabitants claim to be afghân within national borders only if they hold a position as a public servant. Other reasons for adopting a virtual Pashtun-like identity are a marked nationalistic attitude of politicians and an instrument for ethnic camouflage by marginalized groups. The latter case again discloses the value-loaded instrument of ethnicity and hence the supremacy of Pashtun identity in Afghan socio-political life (Centlivres and Centlivres- Demont 1988: 35). The inter-ethnic cleavage is a function of unequal allocation of political power.''
http://kit10.info/Khans%20&%20Warlor...20PART%201.pdf

From p. 154-157.

http://books.google.de/books?id=v2qLIiqoCK8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Identity+Politics+in+Central+Asia&hl=de&sa=X&ei=Shw5T8_WGMqUswaA_-WIBg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Identity%20Politics%20in%20Central%20Asia&f=false

Afghanistan was not heaven or good for non-Pashtuns in the past. Their situation changed when they began to expand their national interests with armed fractions which caused a huge damage to the old 2 hundred years Pashtun aristocrates and destroyed the ruling system. The socialist Parchams brought changes to the old system and shared the ''central'' power to every ethnicity. The composition of the army changed rapidly, that of the police, of the elite universities ...

Just accept the facts. The past politicians and politics destroyed Afghanistan because of ethnocentrism. The current government still want to goes the same old tactics which just destroy Afghanistan and deepen the hatred. Fabricating lies can not hide reality and truth. The Taliban who called themself as ''islamic'' used nationalism the same way. You can not hide the sun with two fingers.

Ps: list your list

[MostafaM]

I have to inform you that the military history of Afghanistan is one of my major fields of knowledge, so here is a representative list:

1. Ghulam Ali, Turan General, Panjsher, Chief of Armoured Branch of the Army

2. Kabir Khan, Turan General, Usbak, Chief of the Military Intelligence

3. Mohammad Issah, Daggar General, Nuristan, Commander of the Division "Middle " (Qulu Urdu-e Markazi)

4. Mohammad Kohistani, Turan General, Shamali, Commander of the Division Kandahar (Qulu Urdu-e Kandahar)

5. Ghafur Raez, Brid General, Baluch, Chief of Operations of the Army

6. Mohammad Musah Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Ghazni, Chief of the Afghan Air Force

7. Said Mohammad, Brid General, Sayyed of Paghman, Chief of the Armyś Artillerie (Topchie)

8. Yonus Khan, Turan General, Farsizaban of Ghazni, Commander of the Jalalabad Battalion

9. Faiz Mohammad Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Logar, Commander of the Southern Provinces of Loya Paktia (Paktia, Paktika, Khost)

10. Said Hassan Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Kabul, Chief of Staff of the Army

11. Hussain Khan (Babrak Karmals father), Daggar General, Commander of the Paktia Division (Qulu Urdu-e Paktiya)

12. Barat Ali Khan, Brid General, Hazara, I can't remember his post, will look it up when I have my books

13. Said Hussain Khan, Turan General, Qezelbash,, Commander of the 4th and later the 15th Armoured Battalions

14. Asef Mehr, Turan General, Farsizaban of Kabul, Chief of Finances of the Defence Ministry

15. Baba Jan, Brid General, Farsizaban of Laghman, Chief of Education of the Defence Ministry

16. Abdulaziz Khan, Turan General, Farsizaban of Herat, Chief of Staff


The list is longer than that, I just gave some simple examples and you can ask anyone who has served in the Army in the 60s and 70s if they know these Generals.

Afghanistans Army had three major divisions to defend the country, Divisions of Paktiya, Kandahar and Kabul (Markazi) and several battalions and brigades that were independent.
All three major divisions had non-Pashtun commanders:
Kandahar: Mohammad Kohistani
Kabul(Markazi): Issah Khan
Paktia: Faiz Mohammad

You, my Bach-e Saqqaw friend Nokia, are talking absolute nonsense and try to instigate hatred.
I wouldn't be surprised when a Paki or Khorassani is using that Nokia-account to spread desinformation.

[MostafaM]

Nokia,

your talking is that of an indoctrinated person who has a Parchami background. But even you, as a Karmal supporter, should have known that his father was a high ranking general in the army. ;-)

Parcham's aims were a failure from day one.

Afghanistan's resistance was a Pashtun one, Khalq, the Pashtun dominated faction of the PDPA had to be sidelined by the KGB and the Russian Army by killing it's leader, to installate the Parcham faction.
The setami and anti-Pashtun segments were heavily involved in tricking the KGB into believing that Parcham had the power to do anything.

Parcham's own fractionalisation into several groups (Najib, Laeq and Karmal) showed itself how miscalculated their approach towards the conflict was.

Even the Russians understood that without a Pashtun representation by the person of Najib, the minorities couldn't rule this country and secure the northern borders. Keshtmand's plan of splitting up AFG by introducing the idea of a "northern Afghanistan" by uniting military, intelligence and economic networks of the 9 northern provinced didn't work either.

Long story short, you can go on to spread your Parcham lies here. I won't be reluctant to expose you.

:-)

[MostafaM]

I forgot one Usbak General:

17. Usman Qul,Turan General, Commander of the Military School (Harbi Shwanzai), PhD in Military Tactics from Turkish War College, Ankara

[NokiaWnW]

I have to inform you that the military history of Afghanistan is one of my major fields of knowledge, so here is a representative list:

1. Ghulam Ali, Turan General, Panjsher, Chief of Armoured Branch of the Army

2. Kabir Khan, Turan General, Usbak, Chief of the Military Intelligence

3. Mohammad Issah, Daggar General, Nuristan, Commander of the Division "Middle " (Qulu Urdu-e Markazi)

4. Mohammad Kohistani, Turan General, Shamali, Commander of the Division Kandahar (Qulu Urdu-e Kandahar)

5. Ghafur Raez, Brid General, Baluch, Chief of Operations of the Army

6. Mohammad Musah Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Ghazni, Chief of the Afghan Air Force

7. Said Mohammad, Brid General, Sayyed of Paghman, Chief of the Armyś Artillerie (Topchie)

8. Yonus Khan, Turan General, Farsizaban of Ghazni, Commander of the Jalalabad Battalion

9. Faiz Mohammad Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Logar, Commander of the Southern Provinces of Loya Paktia (Paktia, Paktika, Khost)

10. Said Hassan Khan, Daggar General, Farsizaban of Kabul, Chief of Staff of the Army

11. Hussain Khan (Babrak Karmals father), Daggar General, Commander of the Paktia Division (Qulu Urdu-e Paktiya)

12. Barat Ali Khan, Brid General, Hazara, I can't remember his post, will look it up when I have my books

13. Said Hussain Khan, Turan General, Qezelbash,, Commander of the 4th and later the 15th Armoured Battalions

14. Asef Mehr, Turan General, Farsizaban of Kabul, Chief of Finances of the Defence Ministry

15. Baba Jan, Brid General, Farsizaban of Laghman, Chief of Education of the Defence Ministry

16. Abdulaziz Khan, Turan General, Farsizaban of Herat, Chief of Staff


The list is longer than that, I just gave some simple examples and you can ask anyone who has served in the Army in the 60s and 70s if they know these Generals.

Afghanistans Army had three major divisions to defend the country, Divisions of Paktiya, Kandahar and Kabul (Markazi) and several battalions and brigades that were independent.
All three major divisions had non-Pashtun commanders:
Kandahar: Mohammad Kohistani
Kabul(Markazi): Issah Khan
Paktia: Faiz Mohammad

You, my Bach-e Saqqaw friend Nokia, are talking absolute nonsense and try to instigate hatred.
I wouldn't be surprised when a Paki or Khorassani is using that Nokia-account to spread desinformation.

So you agree that the numbers of non-Pashtuns were very low compared to the 272-298 generals that the army had from 60s to 70s? Btw, can you please provide us a list or a link or a book with these names?? How many of them are fakes? the problem with a someone like you is that you fake and oppose everything that threat you and your existence...and everyone know your tactics, so noone take you serious.

[MostafaM]

Listen up, lad:

Back in the 60s and 70s there weren't many officers with a General rank.

Compared to the Pashtun Generals, I would say, there were more non-Pashtun generals.

The 17 examples are a short list.


a) you said that not a single non-Pashtun general existed;

b) now you try to twist your arguement.

I gave you this list from memory.
If you still insist on the ethnicities of ALL generals during the royal times, you have to wait untill the end of March because I do not have my books about military history of central asia and Afghanistan with me.

The most important posts within the Army and Air Force were filled with non-Pashtuns as you can see in the list.

You arguements are not valid and pure propagandistic lies!

[MostafaM]

So you agree that the numbers of non-Pashtuns were very low compared to the 272-298 generals that the army had from 60s to 70s? Btw, can you please provide us a list or a link or a book with these names?? How many of them are fakes? the problem with a someone like you is that you fake and oppose everything that threat you and your existence...and everyone know your tactics, so noone take you serious.

Are you Afghan?

Do you have relatives who served in the Army?

If you can answer these questions with yes, ASK THEM!

They will definitly know these people because these aren't any of your laru-panju Panjsheri Generals who have popped out of nowhere.

The list includes people who were Chief-of-Staff and major Division Generals, like Faiz Mohammad Khan, Hussain Khan and Mohammad Kohistani.

Give us a break from your Parchami-PDPA-Setami-Rantings, boy!

[NokiaWnW]

Listen up, lad:

Back in the 60s and 70s there weren't many officers with a General rank.

Compared to the Pashtun Generals, I would say, there were more non-Pashtun generals.

The 17 examples are a short list.


a) you said that not a single non-Pashtun general existed;

b) now you try to twist your arguement.

I gave you this list from memory.
If you still insist on the ethnicities of ALL generals during the royal times, you have to wait untill the end of March because I do not have my books about military history of central asia and Afghanistan with me.

The most important posts within the Army and Air Force were filled with non-Pashtuns as you can see in the list.

You arguements are not valid and pure propagandistic lies!

Stop lying here, boy! Provide links and references... what´s hard for you to understand???? The non-Pashtun gripping over army officer corps started when the Parchams came to power. Before their era there was not a single or in number very small non-Pashtun officiers and mostly descandants of noble families. If my arguments are not ''valid and pure propagandistic lies'' than please prove that with providing references. And stop telling here that there were not much generals hahahaha even today, the smalled army has not lesser than 200 generals..

[NokiaWnW]

Pure BS! During the 60s and 70s every officer had to be a Pashtun. Non-Pashtuns had to adopte a fake identity

''Those circumstances explain why non-Pashtun Afghan inhabitants claim to be afghân within national borders only if they hold a position as a public servant. Other reasons for adopting a virtual Pashtun-like identity are a marked nationalistic attitude of politicians and an instrument for ethnic camouflage by marginalized groups. The latter case again discloses the value-loaded instrument of ethnicity and hence the supremacy of Pashtun identity in Afghan socio-political life (Centlivres and Centlivres- Demont 1988: 35). The inter-ethnic cleavage is a function of unequal allocation of political power.''
http://kit10.info/Khans%20&%20Warlor...20PART%201.pdf

From p. 154-157.
http://books.google.de/books?id=v2qL...20Asia&f=false

Afghanistan was not heaven or good for non-Pashtuns in the past. Their situation changed when they began to expand their national interests with armed fractions which caused a huge damage to the old 2 hundred years Pashtun aristocrates and destroyed the ruling system. The socialist Parchams brought changes to the old system and shared the ''central'' power to every ethnicity. The composition of the army changed rapidly, that of the police, of the elite universities ...

Just accept the facts. The past politicians and politics destroyed Afghanistan because of ethnocentrism. The current government still want to goes the same old tactics which just destroy Afghanistan and deepen the hatred. Fabricating lies can not hide reality and truth. The Taliban who called themself as ''islamic'' used nationalism the same way. You can not hide the sun with two fingers.

Ps: list your list

.. try the book