Afghanistan vs Iraq.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

and again A Rose by Any other name is still a rose, or in this case a snake by any other name that's called a "conspiracy"

when you do corrupt things "in secret" for a certain agenda. This is conspiracy.

Scimitar I wanted to complement you. I have not had the chance to really talk much to you, but you are a very talented and historically educated young man. When folks go up against you in a debate it is like watching child abuse because you intellectually erase the feet out from under them so amazingly well.

And when Admin Khan weighs in, which he does not often do, his single comment is like thunder, it silences everyone with its moderation and completeness.

I believe that these folks are actually wrong about the CIA and Al Qaeda and the link between the two. There is actually no factual basis to this allegation. I offer you guys this excellent and amazing interview given by Dr. Scheuer to a Yemenese TV station:

YouTube - Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 1/5[/URL]

If you scroll to 5 minutes into his well articulated interview in this link above, you will hear some key words regarding Osama Bin Ladin and the latter's refusal to even meet with the CIA. This level of stead fastness and honesty is actually what has made Bin Ladin's personae appeal to the down trodden in the Muslim world. In him, the Muslim world sees a sort of resurrection of Saladin. Whereas you see Wikileaks files exposing Arab regimes and Arab diplomats as double agents, it appears that Mr. Bin Ladin has made it a point to deal with no one, whether it be ISI, CIA, FBI, M16, the list goes on. This is in fact, what makes him a very affective insurgent leader. He makes a few mistakes here and there, but he very quickly and capably learns and adapts.

I predict that the typical response will be that this is the CIA trying to cover its tracks. I demand proof from them that this is the case.

I think that it is worth your whiles to watch all the segments of this interview which follow:

YouTube - Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 2/5[/URL]

YouTube - Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 3/5[/URL]

YouTube - Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 4/5[/URL]

YouTube - Last Word: Micheal Scheuer, former Head of CIA's Bin Laden Unit 5/5

Btw, the interview once you past the first 2 minutes is all in English.. its not in Arabic. The Host Yosri merely makes the intro in Arabic. [/URL]

[ScimitarXEdge]

Fair enough Barakzai; I just find methods like killing civilians and such as unbecoming of true Islam, therefore I want nothing to do with anything Al-Qaeda.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Fair enough Barakzai; I just find methods like killing civilians and such as unbecoming of true Islam, therefore I want nothing to do with anything Al-Qaeda.

Absolutely, my point was not an advocacy of them. It was merely to point out that not every Pan Islamist ideology, in fact, not a single one, finds its roots in CIA schemes. The lack of evidence linking any of these ideologies to the CIA, whether it is salafi pan islamism or sufi pan islamism is a point these folks rarely concede. This canard is utilized to discredit any reasonable individual such as yourself, but holds no water to those of us that actually read and dissect history.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Absolutely, my point was not an advocacy of them. It was merely to point out that not every Pan Islamist ideology, in fact, not a single one, finds its roots in CIA schemes. The lack of evidence linking any of these ideologies to the CIA, whether it is salafi pan islamism or sufi pan islamism is a point these folks rarely concede. This canard is utilized to discredit any reasonable individual such as yourself, but holds no water to those of us that actually read and dissect history.

Oh yeah of course, I agree

Pan-Islamism comes from our own Afghan forefathers Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani; He actually went to the Middle East to inspire the Arabs of his time to take foot in Pan-Islamic goals, which at that time they weren't. That's why the arguments of these cronies are such nonsense, because in reality the opposite situation happened. It wasn't Arabs coming to impose their ways on Afghans, but Afghans and Indian Muslims who went to Arabia to inspire Arabs to join with them and reclaim their heritage.

[Admin Khan]

Admin Khan, it's a factual event that the CIA helped in organizing and training Al-Qaeda though. This is even verified by the CIA Chief in the 80's; Robert Gates, he acknowledges that CIA were heavily involved in arming, training and cultivating Bin Laden's group. This group became Al-Qaeda.

Ya, but like Nas says "A thug changes, love changes, best friends become strangers". I acknowledge that the US has indeed funded this alleged "terrorist" organization. The US did what they had to do to remain powerful. The US will regulate anyone who appears to be a threat to her hegemony. Isn't that how all countries operate though? Each country has her own strategic interest.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Admin Khan; that's Tu Qoque, corruption is corruption.

[Admin Khan]

No doubt brother. It is and was a messy business with plenty of dirt on the hands of the US and the CIA. The Cold War created a different world in which the US did plenty of sinister deeds. But, taken in context, they aren't some sort of crazy conspiracy. The US supported the likes of the Mujahedden, the Shah of Iran, South Vietnam's President Diem, etc. etc. All to fight the scourge of communism. Communism or the Big Red Bear, of course being the context. More recently, the US supported Saddam Hussein. Seems crazy, unless taken in context. They supported Saddam because he was fighting against Iran who recently radicalized and took American hostages. So, past incidents of seemingly crazy policy, did have their contextual reasons, even though in hindsight, the ended up being ill advised for sure.

But, bringing up "real" events such as these and pointing to them as American folly is totally on par and definately fair play. Actually understanding mistakes of the past are essential so that the US does not (hopefully) repeat them.

However, I believe it is the duty of any free thinking person, wherever their loyalties lie, to stand up and highlight egregious comments made by somebody hiding behind a computer screen.

I understand your stance on this issue. However, those who have been affected by wrongdoings of the US might naturally have distaste towards the US, and it's perfectly reasonable for them. When you have a B52 blowing up your village house, It's hard to remain positive. However, blaming the American population[which also has a considerable amount of Muslims]is wrong, and ignorant. The US does what it's in her best interest. The US cares about it's population, and it's population only.

Put it this way, there is a reason why there are American troops in Germany, South Korea and Afghanistan. I would argue that one of the reasons why Afghanistan has been invaded by the US is due to the Afghan border with China. I mean, how could the US give up such a golden opportunity?

awreedunkey, I am sure you being an educated person, you can agree with me that a US base in let's say Kandahar, Kabul and Baghram allows the US to flex it's muscle. The minute China begins to have a tougher stance towards American policies, It can always remind China who the boss of all bosses is. I had a professor who once told me the US will do anything to flex it's muscle and to protect her citicizen. Whether you are a Muslim or a video-game worshiper, the US will defend you and that defense could even be at the expense of killing Germans or Chinese.

No matter what we say, there are millions of Muslims[American citizens]who get paid to attend American universities. There are thousands of Pashtuns who are receiving college level education for free here, and In fact, they get paid to attend college. Nonetheless, constructive criticism is the only way US foreign policy will change.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I definitely do not blame the American population; I do however blame the mainstream cultural institutions as they cultivate these things.

I realize in a way Americans are victims of their own society as we are.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't know about the U.S. defending people. Ultimately it's plutocracy and oligarchy that rules America.

[Admin Khan]

I definitely do not blame the American population; I do however blame the mainstream cultural institutions as they cultivate these things.

Every American intellectual I have met, has told me they do not support the Afghan war. What more do you want them to do? Let's face it and perhaps me and you can simultaneously take the following with a pinch of salt:

Naive Americans do exist, and they will support everything FoxNews tells them.

This is usually how most Americans get elected.

I realize in a way Americans are victims of their own society as we are.

Elaborate? They have the best technology and the best higher education in the world. What more do they need to be world leaders? Are you going to tell me that China sounds more plausible? The day American students begin applying to Chinese Universities is when the world will change. As of now, the policy is the other way around. It is very Chinese, Pakistani, Afghans dream to attend a local University here in your home town. We take a lot for granted.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I just wanted to address Awreendunkay's first response to me and why it's a groundless premise in trying to discredit my position.

To answer the question; Yes I LIVE in America and have lived here all of my life since birth. Unlike some people I don't pretend that I've lived in "moorani watan" or "plarani watan" since birth while exposing myself as having clear inclinations towards very typical North American/European behaviors/terminology.

However, this characterization of "indulging" in the land of the infidel while diatribing is as if it was trying to portray my motives and behavior as

It's a false premise that people's primary motivates or the causes of why people live in/migrate to a certain place because of the pursuit of luxury or necessarily "living standards". This is a false dichotomy made up by Uneducated Hillbillies who shout "Love it or Leave it" as they put Teabagger Party stickers on the bumpers of their wasteful SUV. Most immigration to America, Europe are essentially imposed, they're imposed by the interference of different Global Institutions which have interrupted, sabotaged and disrupted the Normative Operations of people in their Normal Environments and Ecosystems. This has created displacement and has manufactured dependence on abnormal conditions Hence migrations. If anything, this is exactly why it should be criticized and should be opposed.

It's no merit that they "allow" such opinions to be expressed; because as Ted Kaczynski pointed out; the Status Quo only allows the amount of protest that's sufficient for ensuring people believe that they're being alloted privilege; as a way of maintaining pacification.

Imagine what would happen if there was REAL Protest where infrastructure of institutions were abolished and dismantled; then you'd see those same freedoms of expressions they promised, completely annulled.

In short there is No "Land" of the infidel, there's only the Institution of Corruption; this institution is a set of polices. bureaucracies and infrastructure which manipulates over human lives, our ecosystem and our enviornment.

[awreedunkey]

Admin Khan - Well said. I would expect any soul who has been wronged by the US anywhere in the world to have a negative perspective on the US. And no doubt, when the US does something, they are doing it for a reason, and that reason is always going to include a WHIFM (whats in it for me). So I could definately see your point about having a base in Afghanistan, although I trully believe they wouldn't be there if 9/11 didn't happen.

And, you are right on the mark defending the citizenry of the US and their higher order thinking skills. Remarks that somehow Americans are moths led to the light are far fetched at best. For every FOX News Channel, there is an MSNBC. Debate is live and well in the US where many here do not support our current foreign policy. These conspiracies and claims of corporations ruling the US are fallacies born out of contempt, not real history or social science.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Every American intellectual I have met, has told me they do not support the Afghan war. What more do you want them to do? Let's face it and perhaps me and you can simultaneously take the following with a pinch of salt:

Naive Americans do exist, and they will support everything FoxNews tells them.

This is usually how most Americans get elected.

Elaborate? They have the best technology and the best higher education in the world. What more do they need to be world leaders? Are you going to tell me that China sounds more plausible? The day American students begin applying to Chinese Universities is when the world will change. As of now, the policy is the other way around. It is very Chinese, Pakistani, Afghans dream to attend a local University here in your home town. We take a lot for granted.

Well see my viewpoint comes from a different philosophical tract than yours. To me "Best technology best higher education" is defined only in terms of the context of an Industrial Capitalist Order. The problem is this order is an artificial one and is ultimately destructive and detrimental for the human species and our relationship to the ecosystem. So although we may strive to achieve education and may feel this prestige and privilege of having been educated here; the reality is this feeling only arises because we've been habituated or live under conditions that have been artificially created to which our ability to function effectively has been impeded unless we fulfill the demands of these manufactured "norms". In essence the education we derive is only for the maintenance of these institutions and this system, and the cycle continues.

It's ironic because it was through being educated in this process that I came to realize the reality behind these norms as a result of being introduced to societal and civilization critiques. I began to realize that education for the sake of trying to achieve things defined by their manufactured standards was pointless. We shouldn't be educating ourselves so we can "have what they have" we should be educating ourselves only for the sole purpose of Bringing it all down; so that one day our children and future generations and more over our Mother Earth can be free, and all of us truly liberated.

Feel free to disagree or criticize my post; but that's my take on things.

[Admin Khan]

Admin Khan - Well said. I would expect any soul who has been wronged by the US anywhere in the world to have a negative perspective on the US. And no doubt, when the US does something, they are doing it for a reason, and that reason is always going to include a WHIFM (whats in it for me). So I could definately see your point about having a base in Afghanistan, although I trully believe they wouldn't be there if 9/11 didn't happen.

Like I said, It's what I call a golden opportunity. There was obviously many other ways of handling 9/11, they could've used a more diplomatic approach. However, this is pure speculation on my part. I strongly think the US has a interest in the South/Central Asia. It's arch enemies are on the rise, and if we really think about it, the only puppet it had in South Asia was Pakistan, and that too is strictly it's Government[since the population, for most parts, hates the guts of Americans]. They figured by spending billions of dollars on the Afghan infrastructure, they might create something similar to Germany. After all, from what I have heard from a few "officials" they wanted to make a developed country out of Afghanistan. A country that will be dependent solely on the US, while the US can continue it's activities in the region[American Afghan bases]. Also, you need to focus more on the China issue, cause believe me or not, the issue is real. China is rising, and while it's decades away from reaching the level of the US, It certainly can and the US is planning for the future. There are Pashtuns who I am sure serve in the CIA and FBI who truly care about the US only and they wish to see the US successful. Now to the Afghan issue, what the US did in Afghanistan was wrong, on various accounts. It did not have a uniformed approach. They brought in war-lords, like I told another member here, It's like bring the leaders of MS13, Bloods and Crips and giving them high senior level positions in the Govt. One of the reason the US flexes it's muscle and has a GDP almost ~ to Europe[the entire continent] is because of it's intellectuals who have indeed exploited resources from other nation, but ultimately they served American interests. We can't sit here and paint a gloomy image of the US, the US has committed many wrongdoings, but we must also acknowledge that it's the first to assist in natural disasters. The minute a natural disaster occurs in a Muslim country, the first question that is asked is - Why didn't the US give enough aid? So whilst it's completely understandable that the US is a big naughty boy, that naughty boy is also someone who strictly cares about his 300+million only. He will do whatever he wants to have his citizens live a comfy life. We can sit here and rant that the US doesn't care about it's people but cmon, for the sake of whatever deity many of you believe in, take a look at the resources it has for it's people. Look at how much it invests in every citizen, look at how much it spends in research.

My problem with the US is it's foreign policy, I think what it's doing in Afghanistan is unjust, and what it's doing to the Pashtuns is completely wrong. However, I can't really blame the US for that either. I blame my people first, we have corrupt Afghans who have actually been given aid by the US to develop institutions but instead, they have pocketed the money and built mansions in Dubai. So like I said, the argument can go both ways. The US is someone who you have to face, you can't just ignore America. Afghanistan can't afford to be isolated anyways, It's a landlocked nation that depends on foreign aid. No matter what we say here, we should take a brief look at statistics, Afghanistan gets most of its food and supplies from neighboring Pakistan, and neighboring Pakistan can't really survive without American aid. The recent flood prove to us that Pakistan isn't a mature nation, It just can't really sustain itself. The population knows it, and we here as open-minded individuals know it.

And, you are right on the mark defending the citizenry of the US and their higher order thinking skills. Remarks that somehow Americans are moths led to the light are far fetched at best. For every FOX News Channel, there is an MSNBC. Debate is live and well in the US where many here do not support our current foreign policy. These conspiracies and claims of corporations ruling the US are fallacies born out of contempt, not real history or social science.

All we have to do is take a look at it's professors. Almost every American University has Muslim professors serving in her institutions, If any of you think they 'truly' care about their homeland more than the country he/she is serving, you must be kidding me. Many Afghans, and you might think they are doomed, barely give a darn about Afghanistan. I ask people all the time and the response I get is "I am born here, I am an American, oh but my parents are Afghan". So what I am trying to say is, the US will pretty much bombard any nation to the stone age, If it truly sees a future strategic interest. Wait -- I take that back. In the beginning, It will play nice. It will offer you aid, as long as you take her orders. If you refuse to take her orders, expect the unexpected. And history tells us the rest. If you really try to be a wise-ass, expect another Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Remind you, many of the professors I socialize with are against the Afghan war, but they all want America to remain a powerhouse.

P.S
I once met a Pakistani father who's son was serving in the US military, he told me his son became a shaheed in the Af-Pak border. Yup, that's right, he said his son is shaheed. As we can see, even Muslims are serving in this very Army many despise.

[randolph85]

the right and left in america are harmful not only to their own society but the rest of the world.

for example, in 2001 the right were gung ho to go to war in afg because of security threats and revenge, the left too was in favor of invasion for the sake of "women rights" and other such excuses.

its all the same agenda.