Afghanistan vs Iraq.

[Nadir Shah]

I thought we should compare the two states in post-Taliban and post-Saddam era and see the similarities and differences between the two.
I think that Afghanistan and the people of Afghanistan have shown tremendous progress and the capacity to rebuild a state virtually from scratch. Iraq, though inhibited by the removal of the Baathist structures and power-points, has shown slower progress than Afghanistan. The Afghan state was virtually non-existant when the present setup took power while Iraq was a unified state in every sense of the word in April 2003. It was only the question of replacing the oppressive and tyrannical strucutres of the Saddamist Baath with a broad, democratic, multi-ethnic, cross-sectarian and pluralist authority and dealing with Al-Qaeda. In Afghanistan, state structures were non-existant and had to be created from scratch. I think Afghanistan has been a success for the Afghans and for the wider region.

[ScimitarXEdge]

with all due respect, what you're describing seems based on either fantasy or Obama Administration PR/Propaganda Campaign.

But if we want to get into defacto organizational structure; Iraq has working industry, not that should be lauded as progress anyways, but based on that measure, they're still more operational. Regardless it's still a big mess of course.

Now Afghanistan, the Government only has outreaches within Kabul, everything is controlled by regional spheres of influence. The semblance of a state is merely on paper and showglass.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Let's be fair; Iraq had a professional army and better weaponry. Even in the old Afghan struggles with the British, Afghans very rarely had a sensible fighting strategy other than " da lewanay shan ghapawa". This isn't saying there weren't some brilliant examples of strategy amongst Afghans (Hill of Bones is one of the most monumental battles ever), it just means it's rare.

[graveyardofempires]

Let's be fair; Iraq had a professional army and better weaponry. Even in the old Afghan struggles with the British, Afghans very rarely had a sensible fighting strategy other than " da lewanay shan ghapawa". This isn't saying there weren't some brilliant examples of strategy amongst Afghans (Hill of Bones is one of the most monumental battles ever), it just means it's rare.

are you seriiouse?
or being sarcastic?

[ScimitarXEdge]

very serious. Afghan fighting tactics are usually just uncoordinated and spastic.

Imagine if the Taliban had the sense to teach their conscripts how to fight properly and hit targets. Then what use would there by for nonsense like suicide bombing which ends up killing innocent civilians most of the time? Even sometimes roadside explosives/IEDs end up killing civilians instead of intended targets. It's sloppy and weak strategies.

I know Iraq had suicide bombers too, but these were almost always Alqaeda associated, Iraq had a diverse resistance group; the other resistance groups shunned suicide tactics and had greater impact against Imperialist forces. You know what happened when Alqaeda started getting in the mix? The real resistance fighters started to side with the Americans because they saw Alqaeda blundering up operations killing 40 civilians for a handful of Invaders.

I do know of great examples of combat strategy during the Soviet Invasion though, sadly though most of the dead were Sold-Out Afghans who were proxies of the Soviets who should have been rescued from their brainwashing not killed; but of course Pakistani Proxies like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar just wouldn't have it.

Bottomline is Afghans should learn how to really fight; not just put on the warrior bravado and brandish rifles.

[graveyardofempires]

very serious. Afghan fighting tactics are usually just uncoordinated and spastic.

Imagine if the Taliban had the sense to teach their conscripts how to fight properly and hit targets. Then what use would there by for nonsense like suicide bombing which ends up killing innocent civilians most of the time? Even sometimes roadside explosives/IEDs end up killing civilians instead of intended targets. It's sloppy and weak strategies.

I know Iraq had suicide bombers too, but these were almost always Alqaeda associated, Iraq had a diverse resistance group; the other resistance groups shunned suicide tactics and had greater impact against Imperialist forces. You know what happened when Alqaeda started getting in the mix? The real resistance fighters started to side with the Americans because they saw Alqaeda blundering up operations killing 40 civilians for a handful of Invaders.

I do know of great examples of combat strategy during the Soviet Invasion though, sadly though most of the dead were Sold-Out Afghans who were proxies of the Soviets who should have been rescued from their brainwashing not killed; but of course Pakistani Proxies like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar just wouldn't have it.

Bottomline is Afghans should learn how to really fight; not just put on the warrior bravado and brandish rifles.

oh you are serious?

the matter of fact is afghans dont need training to fight.

and second thing is that so called al qaeda in iraq was an american proxy.
and in iraq there were different groups fighting and the theter could easily be manipulated.

iraqis were not really organised but they did have heavy weapons and iraq is also different terrein so they have bad luck on that part.

in iraq majority (shia and kurds) were in the back seat of invading forces while in afghanistan its some minorities.
in afghanistan creation of new insurgent groups is strictly forbiden.

and in iraq there were also people such as sufis fighting and they still do,and also some shias but in afghanistan its strictly sunni and some nationalists.

saddam was found and hanged while mullah omar is still out there.

so to sum it all up afghans have by far better strategy and enjoy more support than iraqis.

[ScimitarXEdge]

"Afghans don't need training to fight"

this is pure mythology, any skill needs to be honed with proper training. Flailing a gun around and shooting in the air is not fighting.

I too agree there is a high likeliness that AlQaeda in Iraq may have been an American/Coalition Red Herring, there was evidence of this when a British soldier dressed up as an Arab was caught by Iraqi police driving a car packed with explosives in the back. So indeed you're right.

As for Kurds and Shi'a being in the back pocket with Americans, I agree and disagree, they, like most formerly oppressed groups saw only the face of the proxy Oppressing them, Saddam and Ba'ath party, they didn't see that behind the stage it was in fact America who was directing, enabling and controlling Saddam's actions. So they had the curtain pulled over their eyes and misguidedly viewed America as the hero and must make allegiance with them. Much like how people who are Pro-Afghan Government/Karzai-Coalition yet Anti Pakistan and Taliban; forgetting that American Intelligence agencies are in connivance with the ISI and were one of the factors in the rise of Taliban.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

M

[ScimitarXEdge]

Perhaps so, we can only speak about what we know. I just wish Afghan fighters were more coordinated, and didn't use those nonsense "Matyrdom Operations";

"Don't die for your cause, make the enemy die for theirs".

[graveyardofempires]

Im sure if the Afghans had the resources and funding the Iraqis had, the numbers would have been quite similar.

wrora
your yusufzai flag looks beautiful

[PakhtunWarrior]

I thought we should compare the two states in post-Taliban and post-Saddam era and see the similarities and differences between the two.

Friend, "post-Taliban" ?

Since when were they defeated? I haven't heard any news of the Taliban being defeated. Who killed 700+ soldiers (according to america) this year? Tajiks and Hazaras?

Afghan fighting tactics are usually just uncoordinated and spastic.

Oh, now i get it. THIS is why we lost against the British several times and lost Against the Russians. This is also the reason why we are currently losing against the Americans and 40+ other nations who have have accepted they have won and are leaving in 2014.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Friend, "post-Taliban" ?

Since when were they defeated? I haven't heard any news of the Taliban being defeated. Who killed 700+ soldiers (according to america) this year? Tajiks and Hazaras?



Oh, now i get it. THIS is why we lost against the British several times and lost Against the Russians. This is also the reason why we are currently losing against the Americans and 40+ other nations who have have accepted they have won and are leaving in 2014.

Brother, on rare occassions Afghans show amazing feats, almost miraculous. But I look at the American death ratio vs. the Afghan death ratio and our poor civilians and I just feel shame.

I don't glorify any death, but we need better strategies. Even in the Anglo-Afghan Wars and Russo-Afghan War, things weren't always as glorious for us as it is made to seem.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pakhtunwarrior American politicians know tey are losing.

Edge, what do you want us to do? We should still be happy that we have people who have nang and are defending our land.

No Suicide attacks, better strategic IED, where everything is monitored so that civilian buses are not destroyed. More concentration on ambush tactics especially along mountain passes.

Give severance to ANA soldiers if they're captured if they promise not to take arms again. not killing civilian police, ministers and the like even if they're sold out cronies; they can be dealt with later.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Afghans don't have as much as equipment as you think they do. Suicide bomb is there only option to win. According to the Taliban they have 70,000 suicide bombers ready.

We didn't have much during the Soviets and we won.

70,000? That's 70,000 of our honorable young Muslim boys who are being deceived by this Satanic practice, being lost forever. Now I realize in combat the risk of death is always there but there is also a chance of triumph. This is certainty of death, what triumph can come of this?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Or switch from IED's to EFP's like the iraqis did, they are MUCH more effective.

great suggestion; anything except killing your own people senseless in the process.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I'm all for expelling the Imperialists; but not at the expense of innocent Muslim lives.