Afghanistan vs Iraq.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Scimitar, have you visited Afghanistan? When you pay your land a visit and you witness the torture by the American and translators you will understand why those 70K people want to lose their lives in order to save the remaining 30million. When they see priests handing out Pashto bibles and knocking and breaking their door at 4am they want things done quick, in which suicide is the only option.

It's a beautiful thing when people rise up and take battle against a corrupt intruder; it's evidence that the cause of justice and the inspiration of morality vs. immorality stands true inside the hearts of the pure.

Never did they have to intentionally kill themselves to do it. When the Russi Commies first entrenched themselves in Afghanistan somewhere between 1958-1972, they were spreading Das Kapital and Eurocentric doctrines. Never was there a suicide bomb, but activism politically. But when it came clear that the Soviets wanted nothing more but to own Afghanistan. Then they took arms, not a single suicide bomb was used, not a single warrior intentionally wanted to die.

Please, don't sell yourselves short, it's not the only option. Only kamikazes wanted to fight and die because they saw no soul in themselves, but that they were merely servants of their King.

I remember meeting people who fought in the Da Russi Jang who fought large battallions took out scores of Soviet Soldiers; and are still alive. They have children now; and are actively contributing to society. None of the great Muslim Ghaziyan ever tried to die intentionally. Martyrdom is when you die but you are fighting to survive. The cause of Justice is the cause of survival, to die purposely defeats this cause.

[ScimitarXEdge]

you think so? The technology gulf between Afghanistan and the Soviets was broad, there isn't that much change except maybe for a few extra bells and whistles I believe the strength was because of a better sense of ethics. That's what guided the Pashtoons of prior generations. Ethics defines everything from strategy to , techniques to organization.

[PakhtunWarrior]

But when it came clear that the Soviets wanted nothing more but to own Afghanistan. Then they took arms, not a single suicide bomb was used, not a single warrior intentionally wanted to die.

Wrora, I know people who has witnessed all of it and they have witnessed suicide bombings used by the Afghans against the Russian tanks.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Wrora, I know people who has witnessed all of it and they have witnessed suicide bombings used by the Afghans against the Russian tanks.

I have never heard such or seen any documentation, even if that was the case, they made sure civilian areas were not harmed in the process.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I will need more evidence of this for me to make a full evaluation of the scenario.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I mean evidence about suicide attacks and that Malali Ana wanted to commit suicide.

[ScimitarXEdge]

that's a little different than purposely killing yourself wroruka

[ScimitarXEdge]

I would have to slightly disagree with the idea of provocation being in the court of the U.S.; American geopolitical policy has always taken a strong Hegemonist Flavor and this is most evident in the Cold War. Now without seeming like a Taliban apologist; because at this stage the Taliban has at best disparaging scrutiny from me for their use of suicide tactics and disregard for the lives of civilians they are claiming to fight to liberate. The Taliban of 2001 did in fact ask for evidence and were willing to cooperate with America with Bin Laden; America went ahead and aggressed. So the war was driven by the American Hegemonic Ego, that they can tread on everyone but no one can tread on it.

With that said I don't disparage the common man of any Nation, American , british or what have you, when I mention America, Britain or French I'm only talking about the institutions of the Aristocracy and their Military Apparatus. I realize Americans too are exploited by their leaders, and one day we will all be liberated.

[Admin Khan]

First off, the lead forces would not be there if they were not provoked.

Brother David, do you mind elaborating on the notion of provokation? Which Pashtun provoked the Americans? It would be of your interest to know that 92percent of Afghan never heard of 9/11.
Proof for my claim:
Think tank: 92% of Afghans never heard of 9/11 | Raw Story

In fact the majority of the Afghans do not even know why the US is in Afghanistan to begin with. The Pashtun community never denounced the USA as enemies. Nevertheless, Ater the US arrived en-masse in Pashtun cities, Pashtuns decided to kill everyone with an American passport, on Afghan land. I condemn terrorism, I condemn anyone who wishes to harm innocent people. However, lets be a bit darn realistic. No Afghan/Pashtun was involved in 9/11. None. As an American born human, I respect the freedom the USA has to offer me, however, do I have the right to question it's foreign policy David? I, presently speaking, think what the US is doing in Afghanistan is wrong. It makes no sense as to why they are there. American soldiers themselves don't know why they are in Afghanistan, to say the least. As an American national, I don't understand why the American leaders don't get the point? Many of our think-tanks have made it eloquently clear. Afghans are undefeated, and they will defend their land. Afghans did not attack New York. Americans attacked them, and now they are doing what they did to the Russians, all over again. Had Afghans been rallying up support for the attack[9/11], and later proceeding with it, I'd be offering apologies.

Coin it as you may, but Americans would not be in Afghanistan if it weren't for 9/11.

9/11 is something that hurts me. I am upset that innocent people had to die. However, don't you think what the American did in Afghanistan is far worse than 9/11? We Pashtuns condemn terrorism. We do not support, the only reason why Pashtuns are killing Americans in Afghanistan is because they are defending their land. Would you not defend your land? They are ordinary people David. I won't ever support a movement that wishes destruction of innocent people.

My dus pesos, I hope we can engage in a fruitful discussion.

[ScimitarXEdge]

See I have to somewhat disagree; my compassion does not extend upon American Soldiers, unless they abandon their mission. They chose to join the mission. I believe that military personell are fair game; civilians are never fair game.

9/11 could have been the catalyst, it could have also been pre 9/11 plans for Pipelines. We as the public won't know for certain unless Wikileaks gets on the ball. lol

[Admin Khan]

Admin Khan - Very eloquently spoken! And I mean no disrespect when I say that those very words could be spoken in many conflicts throughout history. As you know, "**** Happens." Fair?

And when you meet a Helmandwal, or Kandahari, there response to the colloquial "**** happens" is violence. They want to know one thing, why you are here? and what have we done to you? Every single Afghan is puzzled, and confused. Every Pashtun is being demonized, not only by Afghans, but by other ethnic groups who wish to see us oppressed. I mean, look at the Americans marginalizing the country's largest ethnic group, the Pashtun. Pashtuns, according the various censuses[which I can provide proof for]constitute over 50 percent of the Afghan population. Yet, they are no where to be found in the Army. Can the USA function without it's white population? We know the answer, no it can't. The US invaded Afghanistan, Afghans/Pashtuns ask why? They install a puppet government, for it's strategic purposes, and, they give all major seats to prominent war lords, and later ask why the policy they made is failing. I mean seriously? David, my friend, can the US function when you have a gangster of MS13 as foreign minister? Or the leader of the "Crips" or "Blood" as secretary of state, and vice president, respectively? The aforementioned analogy can actually be applied to Afghanistan. The government of Afghanistan is full of war-lords. The US claims they spent billions, yet they don't question those corrupt Afghans who are spending millions building luxury houses in Dubai. As an American national, I would never blame you for what is happening in Afghanistan. Simply because you and I have no say in what is going on. However, we must acknowledge a few key points. Afghans, currently, view every single non-Afghan as a traitor and an infidel. Do you want to know why? Because without any logical explanation, Americans have invaded them! The reason for their invasion can be many, some argue that it's for Afghanistan's 3trillion dollar natural resources. Some might argue since Afghanistan has a border with China, an American base in Afghanistan, will put China in it's spot. Do you get my drift here? Afghans don't know why you are there, but they do see you distributing Pashto bibles, and creating churches. Now how does a 99.9 percent Muslim Afghanistan feel about that?

I hardly think so. Governments are to blame for this fiasco, not the people. Pashtun people are no more to blame for 9/11 than Americans are for the subsequeent retaliation. It is the governments who condoned, acted and then manifested such conflict...not the people.

I wholeheartedly agree.

But please...at least acknowledge the fact that we would not be in Afghanistan if it weren't for 9/11. The reasons may elude the people of Afghanistan and the US for that matter, but there are reasons...right?

Yes, but what does this have to do with Afghans? Afghans never attacked it, so for that exact reason, Afghans are retaliating to American presence. It has to do with them not understanding why Americans are in Afghanistan.

Bottom line though, as throughout history...it is governments who make decisions of war and hate; it is not the people. I hate no Pashtun, Afghan or Iraqi...and I can almost guarantee most service members feel the same. I hope it is the same for Afghans. Of course history, events and our governments though, pit us against each other. Again...a damn shame.

I understand that, like I previously stated, most soldiers do not know why they are in Afghanistan. Afghans don't know either, but they do know you are invading, for no reason. What happens when Afghanistan is invaded for no reason? Afghans will retaliate. You need to acknowledge that the US has killed innocent Afghans. Those innocent Afghans have families, and know it's those families that will do anything to gain revenge and justice.

If the American policymakers research Pashtun culture, they will realize that "badal" plays a crucial in our culture. Like I said before, had Afghans/Pashtuns attacked New York, I would understand your need to defend America. In our case here, Afghans don't even know why you are in Afghanistan, let alone be involved with the destruction of the US state. I am a pretty fair guy David, I understand you will defend the USA, but apparently, you have no reason to be in Afghanistan. I'll say this very boldly, no Afghan attacked the USA. No Afghan wanted to kill innocent people. No Afghan orchestrated 9/11.

[ScimitarXEdge]

American people can be a force for good, absolutely. I have seen this first hand. I just don't think the Corporation that is known as "America" has at least demonstratively been a force for good.

I believe that what has to happen is that it needs to be restored into the hands of the people rather than this Military Industrial Corporate Complex with this bureaucracy being ratified every 4 years.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I'm not either; I'm just going by what can be known apparently.

That's why I leave possibilities as possibilities; but laws primarily deal with the maintenance of infrastructure which is primarily owned and governed by corporation, denotes aristocracy. Ask yourself why can't the average American produce their own power without paying toll to one of the many regional monopolies. I think that shows that what's at the helm is not democracy but plutocracy.

[davidkross]

Scimitar...you are to deep for me. I can't debate jargon. You gotta look up Paulo Freire though...he's your blood brother on this stuff.

[ScimitarXEdge]

one of the biggest influences on my views on modern society is Ted Kaczynski; I disagree with what he did but his understanding of the world is incredibly insightful and poignant.