Do you prefer to live with ?

[Toramana]

Toramana, this is my concern with Pashtoons as well. We are so busy fighting that we dont have any time to come to an agreement, understand, meetings, etc.

Hi Mina, thanks for response. Yes, that is really unfortunate.

I dont like hearing any bad about non Pashtoon Afghans 'cause I got them as my relatives and family members, nor can I hear a word about Pashtoons of Pakistan 'cause for some strange reason I got the feeling if not this then next generation is going to make Pacha Khan's dream come true.

Yes, you are right. When one lives with a people for such a long time and integrate with them, the thought of separation is painful. I understand your pain and feelings and can empathise with you. This is what happened to thousands of Pashtun families when the Durand Line was established as you mentioned in your post. There are Momands to both sides of the border. And so are also the Achakzais, Toris, Mangals, Shinwaris, Wazirs, etc.


As you have stated, there is this social and emotional side of it. When you or your family has relatives among non-Pashtuns, you would care for them. Brotherly and fraternal sentiments prevail then. But then there is another side of it as well i.e., we are not just isolated individuals and families. We are a part of a large group to which we are tied by language, culture, values, history, territory, etc. For example, how many (out of 40+ millions or 13 millions if you want to consider Pashtuns of Afghanistan only), have non-Pashtun relatives? Obviously, if you calculate the ratio, that would be a minute fraction of the entire Pashtun population (hardly 0.05%).


There is another aspect of this as well. Pashtuns and other Afghans so far were kind of in a state of social and political inertia. When they will become more (socially, economically, and politically) mobalised due to globalization, modernization, technology, improvement in communication, etc. there is bound to happen a competition with other groups for resources, share in political power and administrative institutions, media exposure, and chances of cultural and language representation, etc.


So what is true of our personal or family relations with other group is not true of the intergroup relations. Groups can live with each other in harmony only under a political contract, principle, or rules of the game. They cannot live with each other just out of good-well or brotherly feelings. These things apply to individual or limited family relations only. We would be doing no good to our own Pashtuns or to Tajaks, Uzbaks, etc. for that matter as well if we would exaggerate the sentiments of good-well and brotherly feelings between co-citizens, ethnic groups, etc. If people could live togethor just out of brotherly feelings, there wouldn't have been so many nations, countries, ideologies, value-systems, political systems, etc.


Yes, brotherly feelings is one supporting factor in binding people togethor but on top of that is needed a prpoer social-political contract as well that secures the political, economic, cultural, etc. rights of all individuals and groups. In the absence of a contract, a conflict is going to happen. And if people/groups cannot come up with a proper contract, it is better they seperate.


Right now, Afghanistan is in a transitional state. One does not know how long would it take (one decades or two decades, etc.) for a stable situation to emerge in Afghanistan that will define the rights of all groups and people to their choice. It is not certain whether this road to stable political relations (between groups and people) will be a bumpy one or smooth or outrightly fraught with upheavals. We should also remember that it would not be the same Afghanistan as under the monarchy, where the king was maintaining a stable political order by force. There is little chance for the things to get reversed to that state again.

[Toramana]

Mina, Pashtuns must do something about Durand Line. It should be called a blood-line because there are tribal structures to both sides of it and that has created a social, political, and administrative vacuum in the area. That attracts militants, jehadis, extremists, mercenaries, smugglers, drugg lords, etc., due to which a legal and truly productive Pashtun economy cannot emerge.

This Durand Line is also a geopoltical fault line. Foreign powers use this line to pursue their regional and global agenda and in the process use Pashtuns as cannon fodders, mercenaries, or proxy victims. Whoever wants to have access to Central Asia or South Asia uses this line. Whoever want to settle score with each other, use this line and Pashtuns.

Durand line has taken a huge toll on Pashtuns. So its fate must be decided as soon as possible. Otherwise there will be perpetual instability and war is going to return to us again and again.

One solution would be to declare it as an international border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. But that would not solve the problem unless Punjab is weakened and with that the expansionist ideological Indo-Pakistani brand Islam also gets weakened. Otherwise this brand of Islam is going to extend its fangs to Central Asia with Pashtuns being its first casualty.

The other solution is, Pashtuns become part of Afghanistan. How much is that possible, that remains to be seen. Another option is, all Pashtuns become part of Pakistan...that is impossible. And the last option is, Pashtuns become integrated into a state of their own and enter into a sort of confederation with other groups e.g., Tajaks, Baluchs, boosting and benefiting from regional trade, commerce, etc. But that seems impossible as well.

But that is just day dreaming. We don't know what are outsiders going to do to us.

[Dervaish]

I am not Afghan. It is their problem and their preferences. I live in a multi-ethnic society, and we don't have any serious problems. It is how you think.

[afghan]

I am not Afghan. It is their problem and their preferences. I live in a multi-ethnic society, and we don't have any serious problems. It is how you think.

Ok babloo

[Toramana]

I am not Afghan. It is their problem and their preferences. I live in a multi-ethnic society, and we don't have any serious problems. It is how you think.

Which country are you living in? Yes, when there is a system that represents the aspirations of all people, then yes, multi-ethnic societies are beautiful. But every situation is not the same. Different countries/regions have different objective conditios. This also depends on the evolutionary stage of social development in which the soceities and groups involved in the conflict/situation are in. What about the medieval Europe?

[Zayam]

You Generalize

Hahaha, I can understand the way you have responded to this thread and Zayam (the Westerner) has approved of it.

Anyhow, ideally all humans should live together independent of bonds of religion, culture, language, territorial affiliation, etc. But that is a grand utopia only. The fact is, the civilized Westerners, who put themselves higher on the scale of humanistic-moralistic standards, couldn't demonstrate such ideal humanism as they at times fervently talk of or promote it (when their politics would demand it ). As long as you are a minority, accept their superiority, and don't challenge their values they are humanist (out of petty for you) but as soon as you challenge them, you can be dealt with most brutally.

One should be realistic. Who wants to live with other people on the basis of humanism only? Politics, constitution, etc. are all the things that indicates the reality of so-called humanism. Remove, the US constitution and you would find people at each other throats (probably the blacks would be butchered first). This is because bonds of race, religion, culture are very strong and people tend to cling to them when they feel their way of life or interests to be threatened.

So are you saying that because I am from the West I do not fit in here?

Why do you put all of one people in one basket? There are Pashtun on this site that I care very much about, and I do agree with Roshina, variety is good. After all if I didn't want variety in my life, why would I be on PF? I have spent more of my life not living with Americans, than being with them, and often feel a "stranger" when I spend time with just Americans.

Maybe I am more content alone????

Zayam

[IamDZJ]

They only killed those who stood in opposition and committed the naughty acts with Pashtanas. N.A is notorious for this and I can share many stories from reputable sources on how Pashtanas were raped, they went and gained the honor of those women.

By saying they massacred innocent people, you are lying and spreading falsehood. This is a gunaah, da khuday sakha wabarezha. Don't spread lies and propaganda which is propagated by Tajiks to gain more seats in parliament which they did. Hazaras sided with N.A and at that time N.A was known to commit brutal acts against Pashtuns anyone who was N.A was killed. That is war they did not kill innocent people for fun, that is a lie. You want to know how I know you are a lying? Because Kandahar was the capital of Afghanistan and it had 10-15 percent Shias,Hazaras and Tajiks and they all still exist and there are no reports of them dying now are they? what about Helmand?

Its working, Even Ghazni is now ran by Hazaras. Take a look at parliament. I am not fan of Taliban but I will alway speak the truth and not spread lies. This is a lie similar to Pashtuns killing innocent people when they are bored.

Media brainwashing does wonders...

Excuse me mister New yorker, EVER SEEN A TALIB IN YOUR LIFE? Have you?
The view from New York is a lot different of taliban than from the underground cellars where we were raised up hiding from talibs, mujaheds and gelamjams. Taso ba awredale wee, mong pa khpalo stargo leedaley.

[Mayana]

They only killed those who stood in opposition and committed the naughty acts with Pashtanas. N.A is notorious for this and I can share many stories from reputable sources on how Pashtanas were raped, they went and gained the honor of those women.

Ta way Talibano ba khorra da Pashtano pa Sar Ghairat karrai yi? Do you seriously believe they followed Pashtunwali and honored Pashtun women? Listen to me carefully when I say this. They tried to separate me from my father as a young girl. They expected me to travel alone with a namuharram man that we had never met in our life. Dagha da Pashtano Izzat dai? Is this how they honor Pashtun women and protect them from getting raped? Sending them off to travel with strangers? If it weren't for the courage of my father and our driver, Khodai paak kahabar chi tsa ba maa ta ra pesh sawi wai.

By saying they massacred innocent people, you are lying and spreading falsehood. This is a gunaah, da khuday sakha wabarezha.

THIS is a Gunah? Mujh da Khoday tsakha waberejhu? Hagha Taliban tsenga chi pa har Afghan Zulmoona kawi? Hagha Taliban tsenga chi pa har Mashoom Zulm kawi? Na Ta'alim sta, na Showanzai sta, na Riyaazi sta, na Pashto Adab sta. Hagha Taliban tsanga chi da Shazu Guti oor prekawih chi da Nukaano Rang ye karray yi? Daa da Insaan Kar dai ka da Haywan? Hagha Taliban tsenga chi zma shayesta Afghanistan ye ra darbadara au tuk tuk kai? Hagha Zalim tsenga? Hagha da Khodai paak sakha wanaberijhi, mujh dalta da Khodai pak sakha pa de waberejhu chi Haqiqat wayu?

Sarchapa Pachahi da.

Don't spread lies and propaganda which is propagated by Tajiks to gain more seats in parliament which they did.

This is not a lie spread by Tajiks or Turkmans. Hamdagha Zhwand dai, hamdagha da Talibanu Zulm dai. If you haven't seen it with your very eyes, you will not believe it. Taliban massacred Afghans and not acknowledging this fact indeed is turning away from the truth.


If they truly are for Islam and Pashtunwali, how come I personally know people who have to quit their jobs as construction workers for a mosque (!!!!) in Kandahar because Taliban announced they will attack it? How come they told people to just leave their homes, 'ka mrra swalast bala pa mujh nayast'? Where the hell are they supposed to go? Sarbasta Watan ye ra sarchapa karray day, wai Koroona prejhdai.


Stop associating their actions with Pashtuns as a whole and then resorting to victimizing them and along with their sorry asses yourself as a Pashtun. We don't have to justify anything they did just like we don't have to justify 9/11 as Muslims. We don't support their ideology and no sane person should. And nor should we resort to victimizing ourselves.. all ethnic groups have blood on their hands.

[Mina]

@Luffy
There's a difference in defending your home from invaders, and in destroying your own home in that process. An invader nonetheless will leave your home anyway, he only came to loot u, not to BE u. Its u who has to face the outcome of it and Afghans have always faced a horrible outcome. The British didnt lose anything by so called being defeated by us. They came, divided us into Afghanistan and British India, left again, they are now one of world's richest countries and WE're still crying at its outcome. How are THEY at loss? Russians were invited, took our resources, on one hand they were attacked by mujaheds and on other hand supported by communists in the country, and then left again. Today we're seeing the destruction they with help of AFGHANS left behind. How are THEY at loss? Taken up an arm isnt brave, for the well being of your country LEAVING arms is brave. But we're just too hot blooded to understand that.

@Toramana
My point is exactly that, Durand line PERMANENTLY needs to be sorted out. Either both Pashtoons come to an agreement of either staying separated, either both sides decide to FIGHT for it. If no outcome is there then I fully support fencing the borders. Not to become my own enemy, not to divide families, but to let Pashtoons make a choice. By fencing the borders, test them how they're getting on with it, or whether they're happy it, etc. If either side is happy with it then we HAVE TO accept this bitter fact that maybe our unity isnt meant to be. But if anyone demands for opening the borders again then we should force to make a choice first: Pashtoonistan? Or Afghanistan/Pakistan? 'Cause thats LITERALLY only option left, non Pashtoon Afghans wouldnt allow loy Afghanistan and nor will Pakistani patriots amongst Pashtoons, which I understand and respect. Afghan Pashtoons would NEVER want Pakistan, which I once again understand and respect. And about foreigners using us, thats what we're doing upon ourselves wrora. Why arent Punjabis blowing themselves up? Why not mohajers? Why not Tajiks? Why not Uzbaks? Etc? Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbaks also have been through alot but blowing themselves up never has been an option for them, why it has for us? And that also amongst OUR OWN people? I'm not afraid of an independent Pashtoonistan, but I'm too scared when I think about how will rule it and how they'll do it, and whether we're certain we dont become tools for foreigners anymore?

@Shlombay
Even Abdur Rahman's men, Nadir Khan's men, Taliban's men and other Pashtoons have been "naughty" with women of other ethnic as well. The difference here is that Pashtoons went all the way to the north of the country to touch there women, while others took back their lost land in north by driving away Pashtoons. U cant forcefully enter a land and then expect people NOT to be hostile towards u can u? And Ghazni btw has always been a Tajik dominated area and the difference in numbers between Pashtoons and Hazaras never has been huge in first place. If Pashtoons in past could rule over entire Hazarajat then why not Hazaras over a land which is as much theirs? If u can give Kandahar as a peace loving Pashtoon nation 'cause of ethnic diversity then so can I name Herat, Mazar, Ghazni and Farah which are extremely divers places with every Afghan ethnic out there and that also in huge numbers. There was a time when Herat was 100% Shia province which now got definitely atleast 25% Sunni. And if Taliban killed people for war and not fun, then so could NA supporters say that 2001 was a time of war, not fun.