democracy: best system ever or an utter failure?

[khushal]

I'm "probably" a welfare recipient? On what basis do you make such a false assumption?

Yes I pay taxes, but that's not something I do of my own volition, unlike casting a ballot. You can only be responsible for what you do of your own volition, not what you are coerced to do.

Taxation with representation. You pay taxes but refuse to participate in being represented.

Majority of people who can vote do so in democratic societies. Yet the politicians still don't "practice the good word". There goes your theory that if people vote more the politicians will be straightened out. The truth is, majority of the people are corrupt, and democracy will only reflect that corruption. People like me who want Islamic governance are in a tiny minority, our votes will never make a difference, especially since the system itself is un-Islamic.

Thats an excuse. It doesnt matter if your vote is small and feel like it does not count. you still have to speak up for how your taxes are used. Let the record show that you objected. You got that desi caste mindset of accepting slavery.

I never said that.

Sure you did. So tell me where does it say in the Quran that women arent allowed to drive but can be enclosed alone in the cabin of a car with a non related male. Isn't that a kinda cucky law. I guess you desis are prone to be OK with that.

That's because you are simply uneducated about Islamic teachings and principles. Read the first section of the first Article of the US constitution: "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States", this is in direct violation of the important Islamic principle of Tawhid "All legislative Powers are the prerogative of God Himself - He is the Law Giver"

As Allah says

إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ
Verily, the Hukm (legislation, command, judgment) is for none but Allah

مَا لَهُم مِّن دُونِهِ مِن وَلِيٍّ وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا
and He makes none to share in His Judgment and His Rule

The Quran condemns people like you who who seek judgment from the Taghout (Sura 4:60)

It is you who is uneducated. Congress can not pass laws that violate the first 10 amendments. Although governments have passed laws that violate the first 10 amendments and the executive branch have violated and broken many laws. that does not mean there is anything wrong with the 10 amendments.

hukm mean arbitration, judgement, authority, or God's will. Allah has granted people Freedoms. There is nothing in the 10 amendment's that contradict those freedoms.

You are the Munafiq who believes in a false prophet and robs Canadian charity while claiming to be a righteous muslim.

Also you believe in hiring a man to be alone with your wife. That goes back to the Cucky Saudi law which you believe is the law of the Quran.

[khushal]

What the lizard eats is inconsequential to its status of being Halal or Haram.

The truth is, lizard is Haraam li Dhaatihi (forbidden in its essence).

Coincidentally, I wrote an article on this issue on my blog back in June

رَبَّ جِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَائِيلَ وَإِسْرَافِيلَ أَعِذْنِي مِنْ حَرِّ النَّارِ وَعَذَابِ الْقَبْرِ: Lizard Meat is Haram

عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ شِبْلٍ، أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم نَهَى عَنْ أَكْلِ لَحْمِ الضَّبِّ

Narrated Abdur Rahman ibn Shibl: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) forbade to eat the flesh of lizard. (Abi Dawud)

Even human nature (Fitra) considers eating a lizard repulsive, which should give you some indication. Furthermore, lizard is expressly declared as impure and unlawful to eat in the Torah (Laws of Moses - Leviticus 11:30), the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) simply continued this ruling because lizard truly is an impure animal not fit for human consumption

Mr. taghout,
In the hadith that you yourself mentions in your own link says that the Prophet himself said it is not haram so why do you have to change everything to fit your own cucky narrative.

[ذو الفقار]

Taxation with representation. You pay taxes but refuse to participate in being represented.

Because I don't want to pay taxes to a system I regard as un-Islamic. The only reason I pay taxes is because I have no choice. In Islam, a person is excused and not considered sinful for the actions he does out of coercion.

It is you who is uneducated. Congress can not pass laws that violate the first 10 amendments. Although governments have passed laws that violate the first 10 amendments and the executive branch have violated and broken many laws. that does not mean there is anything wrong with the 10 amendments.

Stop dodging. You asked me what part of the Constitution goes against Islam. I cited Section 1 of Article 1, answer that first before you move to the Bill of Rights.

You are the Munafiq who believes in a false prophet and robs Canadian charity while claiming to be a righteous muslim.

May the Curse of Allah be on the liars (Ameen). What charity do I rob? I hope you realize you are going to be held accountable on Judgment Day for every false accusation.

Also you believe in hiring a man to be alone with your wife.

لعنة الله على الكاذبين

May the curse of Allah be upon the liars again. When did I ever say that? Shameless liar don't you have the least bit of fear of Allah?

[ذو الفقار]

Mr. taghout,
In the hadith that you yourself mentions in your own link says that the Prophet himself said it is not haram so why do you have to change everything to fit your own cucky narrative.

Hey stupid, don't discuss things you don't understand. I quoted two Hadith, one which implies it is Halal and the other which makes it Haram. First study the principle of Naasikh wal-Mansookh (abrogation) before you make a fool out of yourself. Stick to chewing naswaar and doing Bacha Baazi, leave discussion of technical Islamic issues to people with an IQ above 100.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="HardTimesW01-Roman"]

Because I don't want to pay taxes to a system I regard as un-Islamic. The only reason I pay taxes is because I have no choice. In Islam, a person is excused and not considered sinful for the actions he does out of coercion.

You're not coerced , you have the option to move, you can always save up and make hijra ....it may take time but it's not hard. Ysir are full of **** and everyone here knows it.

The coercion argument has no weight. You're not excused if you can make hijra. ...this is what makes you a hypocrite.

Mr. "I Love Dragon Ball Z but want to stamp out every facet of cultural expression from everyone else".

Stop dodging. You asked me what part of the Constitution goes against Islam. I cited Section 1 of Article 1,

Section 1. Although it is the duty of all persons frequently to assemble together for the public worship of Almighty God; and piety and morality, on which the prosperity of communities depends, are hereby promoted; yet no person shall or ought to be compelled to attend any religious worship

That's against Shari'ah? But if you force people to pray, that prevents Ikhlas, Qur'an warns against doing acts out of the fear of Men. The Prophet(saw) burned people's houses down when they didn't come to worship, but this was during the Madinian era, this was never done after the conquest of Madina and migration to Makkah. So it's clear this is no longer Shari'ah just as praying 50 times a day is no longer Shari'ah. Nice try.

Next.


[MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION]

This guy is a fraud, he loves Dragon Ball Z, but wants everyone to stop listenning to music and having a rich culture

let me guess you want to ban Nawruz too?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Hey stupid, don't discuss things you don't understand. I quoted two Hadith, one which implies it is Halal and the other which makes it Haram. First study the principle of Naasikh wal-Mansookh (abrogation) before you make a fool out of yourself. Stick to chewing naswaar and doing Bacha Baazi, leave discussion of technical Islamic issues to people with an IQ above 100.

Your claim that Article 1 Section 1 of the Bill of Rights, is based on a condition which is mansoukh

checkmate.

Stick to cucking your women to Farangi and frolicking with Hijras ....and leave Islamic matters to people who are in touch with reality.

[ذو الفقار]

Your claim that Article 1 Section 1 of the Bill of Rights, is based on a condition which is mansoukh

checkmate.

Stick to cucking your women to Farangi and frolicking with Hijras ....and leave Islamic matters to people who are in touch with reality.

Hey genius, it's Article 1 Section 1 of the US Constitution not Bill of Rights:

"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

Allah says

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Hey genius, it's Article 1 Section 1 of the US Constitution not Bill of Rights:

"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

Allah says

وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّـهُ فَأُولَـٰئِكَ هُمُ الْكَافِرُونَ
And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

False equivalence; the verse is about Islamic religious matters and morality not legislation in general,l which involves application of revenue and social services and such.

Go move to Saudi and stop making excuses like you're coerced, No one is coercing you to stay in Canada you Dragon Ball Z watching Hypocrite.

[ذو الفقار]

Section 1. Although it is the duty of all persons frequently to assemble together for the public worship of Almighty God; and piety and morality, on which the prosperity of communities depends, are hereby promoted; yet no person shall or ought to be compelled to attend any religious worship

And dude this isn't even from the US Bill of Rights (first 10 amendments of the US constitution)

You're quoting the constitution of the State of Delaware

You must have failed Civics

[ذو الفقار]

False equivalence; the verse is about Islamic religious matters and morality not legislation in general,l which involves application of revenue and social services and such.

Go move to Saudi and stop making excuses like you're coerced, No one is coercing you to stay in Canada you Dragon Ball Z watching Hypocrite.

False equivalence? What about you begging the question "the verse is about Islamic religious matters and morality not legislation in general"

What is the evidence for this statement?

You simply have none. Now look at the Verse in context (Read the next verse):

"And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers." (Sura 5:45)

Now be honest and answer whether the law of retribution, which necessarily includes a corporal penalty, is merely a "religious matter and morality"?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

False equivalence? What about you begging the question "the verse is about Islamic religious matters and morality not legislation in general"

What is the evidence for this statement?

You simply have none. Now look at the Verse in context (Read the next verse):

"And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers." (Sura 5:45)

Now be honest and answer whether the law of retribution, which necessarily includes a corporal penalty, is merely a "religious matter and morality"?

Begging the question is another expression for circular reasoning. Which has nothing to do with stating that the verse dealt with Islamic matters and not general social legislation. The evidence is context, the Qur'an doesn't deal with legislation regarding whether to build roads or schools or whether we should do stem cell research or whether evolution should be taught in schools.

The verse you mention, is mansukh


moving on.

[ذو الفقار]

Begging the question is another expression for circular reasoning.

Wrong as usual. Go and study the difference between the two.

Also called petitio principii, the fallacy is an attempt to support a claim with a premise that itself presupposes the claim

That's exactly what you did.

The evidence is context, the Qur'an doesn't deal with legislation

Another false premise. First define what legislation is. Don't just give examples of what you think legislation is and then say such examples aren't in the Qur'an. Learn to formulate an actual argument.

The verse you mention, is mansukh

Mere assertion without any reasoning to back it up.

But for the sake of argument, even if the law of retribution is abrogated in Islam, Allah has cited it in conjunction with His statement "And whoever doesn't judge by what Allah reveals are the wrongdoers", thus proving that this statement about "judging" is in relation to Divine legislation, not simply your "broad principles of morality".

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Wrong as usual. Go and study the difference between the two.

Also called petitio principii, the fallacy is an attempt to support a claim with a premise that itself presupposes the claim

That's exactly what you did.

That's wrong, I just flatly said it, there was no presupposition of anything. The fact you're sayiing it's wrong shows you're just Googling stuff as you go along. You have no actual knowledge. And don't actually understand the things you say.

Begging the Question

Begging the Question
petitio principii

(also known as: assuming the initial point, assuming the answer, chicken and the egg argument, circulus in probando, circular reasoning [form of], vicious circle)

Another false premise. First define what legislation is. Don't just give examples of what you think legislation is and then say such examples aren't in the Qur'an. Learn to formulate an actual argument.

No false premise at all, nothing in the Qur'an tells you how to allocate revenue for funding and supporting social programmes or infrastructure. Which is what a large body of democratic legislation deals with.

It's pretty clear. Writing "false" .and "Wrong" is just a vacant declaration. You're pretending like you know what you're talking about, but you don't.

You just quote verses OUT OF CONTEXT.

Mere assertion without any reasoning to back it up.

But for the sake of argument, even if the law of retribution is abrogated in Islam, Allah has cited it in conjunction with His statement "And whoever doesn't judge by what Allah reveals are the wrongdoers", thus proving that this statement about "judging" is in relation to Divine legislation, not simply your "broad principles of morality".

It is abrogated. Read the verse before it. It's what was revealed to the Jews in the Taurat. We are no longer bound by the Taurat since we have the Qur'an. That was the LAW FOR THEM. Not US.

"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers. (Surah 5:44)"

I don't even need to play along with your thought experiment. You have your understanding of Islam filtered through ideologues who are driven by an agenda to maintain their power. So you're under mind/thought control, which makes your renderings suspect to bias. Where as everyone not under such thought control can see the real intention of the Qur'an by comparing what we know about reality itself without demagogues controlling us.

So retaliation as you described is abrogated by this. This is the Nasikh and the verses about eye for an eye are mansukh

'And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend. (Surah 41:34)'

[Nekrofrost]

Hey stupid, don't discuss things you don't understand. I quoted two Hadith, one which implies it is Halal and the other which makes it Haram. First study the principle of Naasikh wal-Mansookh (abrogation) before you make a fool out of yourself. Stick to chewing naswaar and doing Bacha Baazi, leave discussion of technical Islamic issues to people with an IQ above 100.

Why is it that all of you mullah types end up having such a serious god complex?

[maneatinglizard]

Why is it that all of you mullah types end up having such a serious god complex?

These guys are fake, wannabe Mullahs that use the internet to boost their meager egos. Real Mullahs are not like this.

I just saw this on my Facebook feed, from an actual Mullah (a Mufti):

It is indeed important to seek knowledge... - Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari | Facebook

It is indeed important to seek knowledge and guidance from expert scholars (ulama). However, we should keep in mind that scholars/shuyukh are there to provide guidance on matters that 'require' Islamic rulings, which include many day-to-day issues. They are not designated to make every decision in every aspect of our daily life. Al-hamdulillah, Allah Most High has granted each one of us intelligence (aql) with which we can make decisions on many mundane matters ourselves or by consulting family/friends; we do not necessarily require the services of ulama for such matters.
Many a time, the scholar consulted is not even suited to provide guidance; rather the questioner himself or close family members/friends are in a better position. For example, once a brother asked if he should divorce his wife because she did X, Y and Z? I answered him briefly but also mentioned that he or those close to him were in a better position to make a decision - since he was living with her on a day-to-day basis, and I - as an outsider - won't be able to asses the situation properly. Another brother once asked whether he should invest his money in company A or B (nothing to do with halal/haram; he just wanted my opinion). There are countless other examples from people asking what is a healthy breakfast to how many times per week they should engage in intimacy with their spouse!
Al-hamdulillah, we have been given the gift of reason, and can easily make decisions in such matters.

People who think they are better than everyone else, and deserve to be consulted on every single issue, just because they have some Islamic knowledge, are not true Mullahs (especially when it's someone who barely possesses any Islamic knowledge, like our recently departed friend, Dhul-Fiqar).