Alternative Universe: What If Afghans/Persians etc.were creepily fixated with Indics?

[UnknownUser]

According to Hindu nationalists and some Indians, everything came from or is derived from India. They even have have their out of Inda theory where they argue everyone and and their grandma even Europeans are "depigmented Indians". Lol

[ذو الفقار]

According to Hindu nationalists and some Indians, everything came from or is derived from India. They even have have their out of Inda theory where they argue everyone and and their grandma even Europeans are "depigmented Indians". Lol

Did I cite any Hindu nationalist?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Not at all. This isn't quote mining. Virtually all authorities on the subject describe the religion of Nuristanis and Kalash people as Rigvedic or proto-Rigvedic. This is the view expressed by others like Michael Witzel and Barbara A. West.

James B. Manahan writes: "Living in the high mountain valleys, the Nuristani retained their ancient culture and their religion, a form of ancient Hinduism with many customs and rituals developed locally." (Minahan, James B. (10 February 2014). Ethnic Groups of North, East, and Central Asia: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 205. ISBN 9781610690188.)

Barbara West writes: "Their religion is a form of Hinduism that recognizes many gods and spirits ... given their Indo-Aryan language, ... the religion of the Kalasha is much more closely aligned to the Hinduism of their Indian neighbors that to the religion of Alexander the Great and his armies." (West, Barbara A. (19 May 2010). Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania. Infobase Publishing. p. 357. ISBN 9781438119137.)

As for their religion being an early form of Rigvedic or Hinduism, Michael Witzel writes about their deities and their counterparts:

He talks about how they venerate Yama Raja and Indra. Read this pdf

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~w...haReligion.pdf

There's nothing indicated here that they are "authorities" and may very well be parroting other references that make similar claims than really showing research .....And yes, this is precisely quote mining. You're not showing evidence that they're connected to Hinduism by doctrine just people who claim that they believe that they're Hindus .....precisely quote mining

Your Qadiani quote tactics may work on idiots, but doesn't work on logical people.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

According to Hindu nationalists and some Indians, everything came from or is derived from India. They even have have their out of Inda theory where they argue everyone and and their grandma even Europeans are "depigmented Indians". Lol

Regardless, he's simply quote mining all he did was key word search "Kalash + Hinduism" this is piss poor scholarship, you can cherry pick any source you want when you do that.

[ذو الفقار]

There's nothing indicated here that they are "authorities" and may very well be parroting other references that make similar claims than really showing research .....And yes, this is precisely quote mining. You're not showing evidence that they're connected to Hinduism by doctrine just people who claim that they believe that they're Hindus .....precisely quote mining

Your Qadiani quote tactics may work on idiots, but doesn't work on logical people.

Prove me wrong then. Quote an authority that says their religion isn't a form of Hinduism. I didn't simply quote statements, but also evidence that their religions are related to Rigvedic religion such as the deities they worship and how they worship them etc. Go through the pdf which has the detailed evidences.

Hinduism as conceptualized today, especially the Sanathan Dharm, has evolved over time with new texts like the Gita and Ramayana. But the Rig Vedas are the oldest texts of this tradition. The deities mentioned in that ancient text are venerated by the Kalash till today, an evidence that Kalash share the same roots as the Indo-Aryans of today.

"For Robertson, this could mean only one thing. As he saw it, all the 'essential components' of the Afghan Kafir religion tallied with the Rig Veda - their Indr to the Vedic Indra, their Imra to the Vedic Yama. This led him to speculate that their Kafir religion represented an early 'protest movement among tribal Aryans'. Linguistics was on Robertson's side. The Kafirs in Afghanistan spoke an archaic form of Indo-Iranian, and the Kalash language, like that spoken in the rest of Chitral, is one of the most ancient in the Indo-European linguistic group - older even than Rigvedic Sanskrit. From this, linguists have guessed that the Kalash were living in Chitral at least from the second millenium BCE - perhaps before the Rig Veda was codified. Maybe the priests with their sacred hymns moved on towards the Indus, leaving the Kalash behind to become, as the linguist Georg Morgenstierne put it in 1932, 'the only existing remnants of ancient Aryan religion not affected by literary traditions.'"

Empires of the Indus: The Story of a River by Alice Albinia, p.227

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="FatTimesW01-Bold"]Prove me wrong then.

That's not how it works, when you make a claim, the onus is on you to prove it, so far all you've done is quote mine.

This new citation is also a quote mine. Firstly it's only a speculation at best, secondly it's not concrete since in linguistics things called "False Cognates" exist, where similar sounding words are wrongly attributed to be related.

Your attempts are sophmoric .....like Zakir Naik/Harun Yahya styie.

[ذو الفقار]

That's not how it works, when you make a claim, the onus is on you to prove it, so far all you've done is quote mine.

This new citation is also a quote mine. Firstly it's only a speculation at best, secondly it's not concrete since in linguistics things called "False Cognates" exist, where similar sounding words are wrongly attributed to be related.

Your attempts are sophmoric .....like Zakir Naik/Harun Yahya styie.

“Sophmoric”?!
There is scholarly concensus that Indr is synonymous with the Hindu, Rigvedic deity Indra, and likewise all scholars acquinted with this subject agree that the Nuristanis and Kalash venerate Yama.

[maneatinglizard]

“Sophmoric”?!
There is scholarly concensus that Indr is synonymous with the Hindu, Rigvedic deity Indra, and likewise all scholars acquinted with this subject agree that the Nuristanis and Kalash venerate Yama.

"Scholarly consensus" - according to the exhaustive efforts of the great expert Dhul-Fiqar (AKA 15 minutes of google searching).

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

“Sophmoric”?!
There is scholarly concensus that Indr is synonymous with the Hindu, Rigvedic deity Indra, and likewise all scholars acquinted with this subject agree that the Nuristanis and Kalash venerate Yama.

As Maneatinglizard said, a mere internet search is not scholarly census. You're just googling anything that says "Hindu" and "Kalash" in it, that's obvious

I mean I did a Google of "Kalash" and "Animist" and this is what I found.

A History of Pakistan and Its Origins - Google Books


Colliding Continents: A geological exploration of the Himalaya, Karakoram ... - Mike Searle - Google Books

The smoking gun are their actual religious practices and correlate it to doctrine. Not weak word associations. Try again.

You're an amateur ....and by the way you're debating, it appears that you never had higher level education.

[ذو الفقار]

The smoking gun are their actual religious practices and correlate it to doctrine. Not weak word associations. Try again.

Incorrect as usual. This is the smoking gun:

"In myth it is notably the role of Indra, his rainbow and his eagle who is shot at, the killing of his father, the killing of the snake or of a demon with many heads, and the central myth of releasing the Sun from an enclosure (byMandi < Mahān Deva). There are echoes of the Puruṣa myth, and there is the cyclical elevation of Yama Rājan (Imra) to sky god (WITZEL 1984: 288 sqq., pace FUSSMAN 1977: 70). Important-ly, the division between two groups of deities (Devalog) and their in-termarriage (Imra's mother is a 'giant') has been preserved, and this dichotomy is still re-enacted in rituals and festivals, especially the Chaumos."

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Incorrect as usual. This is the smoking gun:

"In myth it is notably the role of Indra, his rainbow and his eagle who is shot at, the killing of his father, the killing of the snake or of a demon with many heads, and the central myth of releasing the Sun from an enclosure (byMandi < Mahān Deva). There are echoes of the Puruṣa myth, and there is the cyclical elevation of Yama Rājan (Imra) to sky god (WITZEL 1984: 288 sqq., pace FUSSMAN 1977: 70). Important-ly, the division between two groups of deities (Devalog) and their in-termarriage (Imra's mother is a 'giant') has been preserved, and this dichotomy is still re-enacted in rituals and festivals, especially the Chaumos."

This is just another form of word association which aren't strong bases for any argument on their own, this isn't the smoking gun in fact these types of descriptions are in polytheist religions from Egypt to Babylonia to ancient Mongolian Tengrism.

You really are amateur, Qadiyanis need better debate techniques. Step up your game Ghool-am

[maneatinglizard]

You can tell he's just fishing for quotes and has zero understanding of what he's discussing. For example, he keeps on harping on Imra being the Hindu deity Yama.

The problem with that is the Hindu Yama is nothing like the Kafiristani Imra. Yama is a god of death in Hinduism, while Imra is the supreme creator for the Kafirs (to the point that their other "gods" were referred to merely as prophets by some of the people interviewed by anthropologists).

And, even if Imra was Yama, anthropologists also believe that the Iranic Jamshed is equivalent to Yama. So what does Imra being Yama mean? Nothing, other than the Kafiristani religion was some form of the old Aryan beliefs, which no one denied.

In fact, if Imra is Yama, it becomes even easier to determine that their religion is definitely not "ancient Hinduism." Firstly, Hinduism is a amalgamation of Vedic Aryan beliefs with those of the Dravidians local to India, so unless someone finds a specifically Dravidian deity or belief in the Kafiristani religion, there's no evidence to claim that their religion was born out of the same combination process, and at best you'd be able to tie their beliefs to the Vedic Aryans, not the resultant Hindusim. Secondly, the fact that Imra and even the Vedic Yama are extremely different points to the fact that, if they are the same deity, their communities must have diverged long ago. It's very difficult to imagine that Imra could've developed out of the Vedic Yama, so it's likely that the divergence occurred well before the Vedas were composed. If we assume that the anthropologists are correct, and that Jamshed, Imra, and Yama are developments of a single proto-Aryan deity, then it's pretty clear that Imra must've developed apart from the other two.

[salman47]

"Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally"

Source: Richard F. Strand (31 December 2005). "Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Peoples and Languages of Nuristan". nuristan.info.

Not a credible source.

[کیش]

The reason people act and wish they were Pashtun/Khorasani, consciously and unconsciously, is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessing be to him, his family and companions) prophesied that the army of the Mahdi during the battles of Armageddon will be Khorasani. Making them have an unbelievable high ranking in the eyes of the all mighty Lord, the master of the day of judgement. So it's ok if an Indian to pray he has Khorasani blood.

White people also stealing the long hair and beards of Afghans.

[ذو الفقار]

White people also stealing the long hair and beards of Afghans.

Long, shoulder length hair, full beard, and black turban is from the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wasallam). He wasn't an Afghan.

There is some controversy about the authenticity of the narrations about black flags emerging from Khurasan coming to the support of the Mahdi. I tend to lean toward accepting them, but it is not something definite for me.

But the expected Fatimid Mahdi will himself emerge from Mecca not Khurasan according to the most sound traditions.

Furthermore, there is also a tradition that the Antichrist will emerge from Khurasan:

عَنْ أَبِي بَكْرٍ الصِّدِّيقِ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ : " الدَّجَّالُ يَخْرُجُ مِنْ أَرْضٍ بِالْمَشْرِقِ ، يُقَالُ لَهَا : خُرَاسَانُ ، يَتْبَعُهُ أَقْوَامٌ كَأَنَّ وُجُوهَهُمُ الْمَجَانُّ الْمُطْرَقَ

Abu Bakr As-Siddiq RA said: "The Messenger of Allah(s.a.w) narrated to us, saying: 'The Dajjal shall emerge from a land in the east called Khurasan. He is followed by a people whom appear as if their faces are shields coated with leather.'" (Tirmidhi sharif)

In other words, the Dajjal shall be followed by people from the eastern lands of Khurasan that are Turkic or Mongolic, having round, fleshy faces like shields coated with leather.

I have written about this extensively on my blog:

رَبَّ جِبْرِيلَ وَمِيكَائِيلَ وَإِسْرَافِيلَ أَعِذْنِي مِنْ حَرِّ النَّارِ وَعَذَابِ الْقَبْرِ: Followers of Dajjal: 7, Turkic "Jews"