Alternative Universe: What If Afghans/Persians etc.were creepily fixated with Indics?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Not at all, it is a strong example in response to maneatinglizard's argument that Nuristanis are closer to Pashtuns than the peoples immediately east of the Indus River. In his words: "we refer to people primarily east of the Indus who have a shared Indic cultural heritage [as Indic]", implying that the Nuristanis have a shared cultural heritage with the Pashtuns rather than what he defines as "Indic". But the example I gave is a strong repudiation of that point.

It is, you're saying that if they don't resemble Pashtuns in one trait, they're closer to Indics ....this is a false dichotomy. In fact most of your babble has logical fallacies in general , but I digress.

[ذو الفقار]

It is, you're saying that if they don't resemble Pashtuns in one trait, they're closer to Indics ....this is a false dichotomy. In fact most of your babble has logical fallacies in general , but I digress.

It's not a false dichotomy because that was only one particular example. I also mentioned the original point of fundamentally different languages between the Nuris and Pashtuns, with the Nuristani languages being closer to Indo-Aryan branch. I also mentioned the fact that Nuris are recent converts to Islam who previously practiced a form of Hinduism. The history of Nuris as being part of a wave of Aryan migration from Central Asia puts them closer to us, as we too are descendants of another wave of Aryan migration that settled northwest India, so we have a shared history.
Now what are your specific arguments that Nuris are closer to Pashtuns than us "Indic" people?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It's not a false dichotomy because that was only one particular example. I also mentioned the original point of fundamentally different languages between the Nuris and Pashtuns, with the Nuristani languages being closer to Indo-Aryan branch. I also mentioned the fact that Nuris are recent converts to Islam who previously practiced a form of Hinduism. The history of Nuris as being part of a wave of Aryan migration from Central Asia puts them closer to us, as we too are descendants of another wave of Aryan migration that settled northwest India, so we have a shared history.
Now what are your specific arguments that Nuris are closer to Pashtuns than us "Indic" people?

That's still a false dichotomy, not being like Pashto is not the same as saying it's being similar gto Indic languages

[Elias]

It's not a false dichotomy because that was only one particular example. I also mentioned the original point of fundamentally different languages between the Nuris and Pashtuns, with the Nuristani languages being closer to Indo-Aryan branch. I also mentioned the fact that Nuris are recent converts to Islam who previously practiced a form of Hinduism. The history of Nuris as being part of a wave of Aryan migration from Central Asia puts them closer to us, as we too are descendants of another wave of Aryan migration that settled northwest India, so we have a shared history.
Now what are your specific arguments that Nuris are closer to Pashtuns than us "Indic" people?

Phonetically nuristani languages sound like Iranian languages. If you mean the grammatical similarity then I can assure you that to a certain degree every Indo-European language has here and there similar grammar.

nuristani program - YouTube

Compare it with this
A Mini History of Mother language (Punjabi) by: Rana Iqbal Khan Chak 370 JB Gojra (Punjabi Zindabad) - YouTube
To be honest one can’t distinguish between punjabi/Sindhi/Urdu/Bengali. All Indo-Aryan languages sound the same except Nuristani and Pashayi which makes them both unlikely being close to Indo Aryan let alone being Indo-Aryan.

I’m still waiting for the source...

[ذو الفقار]

To be honest one can’t distinguish between punjabi/Sindhi/Urdu/Bengali. All Indo-Aryan languages sound the same except Nuristani and Pashayi which makes them both unlikely being close to Indo Aryan let alone being Indo-Aryan.

I’m still waiting for the source...

You can't distinguish between Punjabi and Bengali? Even I can distinguish between Farsi and Pashto, heck I can distinguish between German, French, Italian, Russian and so many other languages without even knowing a single word of those languages, just purely phonetically.

[Elias]

You can't distinguish between Punjabi and Bengali? Even I can distinguish between Farsi and Pashto, heck I can distinguish between German, French, Italian, Russian and so many other languages without even knowing a single word of those languages, just purely phonetically.

Then stop spreading nonsense like the other Indians who claim everything being Indian.

[ذو الفقار]

Then stop spreading nonsense like the other Indians who claim everything being Indian.

I don't identify as Indian anyways. I only identify as Muslim. I was just trying to illustrate how futile, shallow and ridiculous these discussions are. I'd much rather discuss more relevant things.

[salman47]

The debate is still ongoing among scholars. Some of them posit that Nuristani languages are closer to Indo-Aryan than Iranian. I also would like to point out that Nuristani people are recent converts to Islam, before that they practiced a form of Hinduism. Based on this and many other factors, I think by this forum’s own criteria, the Nuristanis should be considered an “Indic” people, putting them in the same category as us Punjabis, Kashmiris, Sindhis, Hindkowans, and north Indians

Hinduism? Really? What next? Zoroastrianism is a form of Hinduism?
If you don't have knowledge why do you make up lies?
The Kalash people practice the old religion of Nuristanis. I say this because Chitral and Nuristan were the same place before British bull****.

[ذو الفقار]

Hinduism? Really? What next? Zoroastrianism is a form of Hinduism?
If you don't have knowledge why do you make up lies?
The Kalash people practice the old religion of Nuristanis. I say this because Chitral and Nuristan were the same place before British bull****.

"Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally"

Source: Richard F. Strand (31 December 2005). "Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Peoples and Languages of Nuristan". nuristan.info.

[maneatinglizard]

As I pointed out in my previous post: "The debate is still ongoing among scholars. Some of them posit that Nuristani languages are closer to Indo-Aryan than Iranian." Now you have cited the linguist scholar Cardona as arguing that Nuristani is affiliated with Indo-Aryan branch.

As my reference said, the opinion you're pushing is a minority opinion, and it's one that was common in the past when the British wanted to call everything in the general area Indian. The majority don't agree with you. If you're going to push old opinions, you may as well start calling us Jews who speak an Indic language, as the British used to believe that too.

What is your academic source for this claim? Even if what are traditionally considered "Dardic" languages shouldn't be considered a real category, what are the academic sources that dispute that the individual languages shouldn't be considered Indo-Aryan?

I already posted a source, go look at the image in my last post.

That these languages are not well-researched is a known fact. As I already said, most of them exist in remote regions of Pashtunistan that are not accessible to Western researchers, and Afghanistan is not exactly in a state where they could provide anyone enough security to carry out proper studies (nor is most of Pakhtunkhwa).

That's a false premise that the people east of the Indus have a shared cultural heritage. Heritage implies something in the past, so that heritage would include the Dardic speaking peoples and Nuristanis west of the Indus, even if at present a Nuristani will supposedly "laugh in my face".

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Indics (i.e. people east of the Indus) have a shared cultural heritage that does not include the people of Afghanistan. Nuristanis don't share your cultural heritage, whether they speak an "Indo-Aryan" language, a "Iranic" language, or an unclassified "Indo-Iranian" language, they have no cultural connection to India, and have never been associated to it.

You seem to think that the linguistic classifications of Western researchers dictate how people behave in the real world. No one's going around in Afghanistan discriminating against Pashayis for being "Indic," just because their language is generally considered "Indo-Aryan" by linguists.

Language is a huge part of cultural heritage.

Okay? Nuristanis don't speak the same language as you, nor one that is closely related. Indo-Aryans and Iranic Aryans also have related languages, but our cultures and societies developed separately for so long a time the remaining similarities are vastly outweighed by the differences.

Culturally, the Nuristanis are quite different from Pashtuns. For example, Nuristanis aren't tribal or organized along tribal lines. Nuris are therefore closer to the Hindkowans, Chitralis, Kashmiris than to Pashtuns.

Yes they are. Who told you they weren't? They may not have the strict, complex tribal structure of Pashtun society, but they do have tribes.

And even if they didn't, the fact that you'd use that as evidence of them being Indics is laughable. You want to know who else doesn't have tribes? How about Tajiks? Or Persians? I guess the must be Iranians. Oh wait, Americans don't have tribes either. I guess Nuristanis are actually Americans!

Not having tribes is not a salient feature of Indics.

Not at all, it is a strong example in response to maneatinglizard's argument that Nuristanis are closer to Pashtuns than the peoples immediately east of the Indus River. In his words: "we refer to people primarily east of the Indus who have a shared Indic cultural heritage [as Indic]", implying that the Nuristanis have a shared cultural heritage with the Pashtuns rather than what he defines as "Indic". But the example I gave is a strong repudiation of that point.

Firstly, your repudiation sucks. Secondly, you tried to refute a point I didn't even make.

"Indics and Nuristanis don't have a shared cultural heritage" =\= "Pashtuns and Nuristanis do have a shared cultural heritage"

It's not a false dichotomy because that was only one particular example. I also mentioned the original point of fundamentally different languages between the Nuris and Pashtuns, with the Nuristani languages being closer to Indo-Aryan branch.

lol stop saying this. It's not true.

Have you even heard any Nuristani dialect? The language sounds like something between Farsi and Pashto.

I have a strong suspicion you've never met a Nuristani, have never heard the language, and probably didn't even know of their existence until today.

I also mentioned the fact that Nuris are recent converts to Islam who previously practiced a form of Hinduism.

Once again, no they didn't. They followed some sort of archaic proto-Aryan religion (that obviously evolved through the years).

Hinduism is a combination of Vedic Aryan beliefs with those of the native (to India) Dravidians.

The history of Nuris as being part of a wave of Aryan migration from Central Asia puts them closer to us, as we too are descendants of another wave of Aryan migration that settled northwest India, so we have a shared history.

Your ignorance is astounding. Do you even know what an Aryan is?

News flash: Iranics are Aryans.

And all this arguing is, as I said before, rather pointless, when, as I already said:

"And all this discussion is basically moot, because what you don't seem to realize is when we refer to "Indic" we don't mean people who speak languages that have been classified as "Indo-Aryan." Rather, we refer to people primarily east of the Indus who have a shared Indic cultural heritage."

Nuristanis simply don't share the specific cultural and societal trends that Indians are famous for. Even if their ancestors were Indian (they weren't, but this is hypothetically speaking), their culture evolved for a long time to become something completely different from any Indic one. You Punjabis have as much in common with a Nuristani as you do a Pamiri.

[Samandri]

Kalash people do not worship Ram, Krishna, Hanuman etc, and they do not observe Hindu customs and festivals like Holi , Diwali etc. Their religion is a mixture of animism and ancestor- and fire-worship. They make offerings to several gods: Sajigor, the highest deity, is in charge of everything; Surisan protects the cattle, Goshedoi milk products, and Praba fruit. [Pakistan handbook by Isobel Shaw]

If any pagan religion is Hinduism then by that definition pre-Islamic Arab pagans were also Hindus.

[ذو الفقار]

The Chitrali Kho people are indisputably an Indo-Aryan people.

"Khowar, in many respects [is] the most archaic of all modern Indian languages, retaining a great part of Sanskrit case inflexion, and retaining many words in a nearly Sanskritic form."

Source: Jettmar, Karl; Edelberg, Lennart (1974). Cultures of the Hindukush. F. Steiner Verlag. p. 3. ISBN 9783515012171.

I find it quite interesting that in the NWFP/KPK province, the Chitralis vote differently from the Pakhtuns. Likewise, the Hindkowans generally support the PMLN, who owe their 16 seats in the KPK provincial parliament to the Hindkowan districts of that province. I believe these Indo-Aryan ethnic groups also opposed the name change of the province from NWFP to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which is quite understandable. NWFP was a neutral name, but now the province has an ethnic name representing only a single ethnic group, whereas over a quarter of the population of the province are non-Pakhtun, especially Hindkowans who are 18%.

There are genuine concerns about the political and cultural "Pakhtunization" of the province to the detriment of non-Pakhtuns. Furthermore, it is strange that Dera Ismail Khan is part of KPK and not Punjab, since Dera Ismail Khan is 72% Saraiki.

[Elias]

The Chitrali Kho people are indisputably an Indo-Aryan people.

"Khowar, in many respects [is] the most archaic of all modern Indian languages, retaining a great part of Sanskrit case inflexion, and retaining many words in a nearly Sanskritic form."

Source: Jettmar, Karl; Edelberg, Lennart (1974). Cultures of the Hindukush. F. Steiner Verlag. p. 3. ISBN 9783515012171.

I find it quite interesting that in the NWFP/KPK province, the Chitralis vote differently from the Pakhtuns. Likewise, the Hindkowans generally support the PMLN, who owe their 16 seats in the KPK provincial parliament to the Hindkowan districts of that province. I believe these Indo-Aryan ethnic groups also opposed the name change of the province from NWFP to Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which is quite understandable. NWFP was a neutral name, but now the province has an ethnic name representing only a single ethnic group, whereas over a quarter of the population of the province are non-Pakhtun, especially Hindkowans who are 18%.

There are genuine concerns about the political and cultural "Pakhtunization" of the province to the detriment of non-Pakhtuns. Furthermore, it is strange that Dera Ismail Khan is part of KPK and not Punjab, since Dera Ismail Khan is 72% Saraiki.

Why do you change the subject? You can open an another thread.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

"Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practiced a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally"

Source: Richard F. Strand (31 December 2005). "Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Peoples and Languages of Nuristan". nuristan.info.

This is not an example of providing evidence, but something called quote mining. This is where someone just fishes for statements without comparing the quality of the information provided.

You did this with a lot of your "Pro-Ghulam Qadiyani" citations too.

the Author may/may not be aware of the details of the Nuristani religion and thus made an assumption. But As Samandri pointed out, Nuristanis while historically polytheists, practiced a Animist/Shamanist religion. This is not Hinduism. So finding a writer that thinks its Hinduism, doesn't make it Hinduism. If they followed Hindu docrtines and this can be shown, that would verify them as Hindus.

Anyone can find quotes that say practically anything.

[ذو الفقار]

This is not an example of providing evidence, but something called quote mining. This is where someone just fishes for statements without comparing the quality of the information provided.

You did this with a lot of your "Pro-Ghulam Qadiyani" citations too.

the Author may/may not be aware of the details of the Nuristani religion and thus made an assumption. But As Samandri pointed out, Nuristanis while historically polytheists, practiced a Animist/Shamanist religion. This is not Hinduism. So finding a writer that thinks its Hinduism, doesn't make it Hinduism. If they followed Hindu docrtines and this can be shown, that would verify them as Hindus.

Anyone can find quotes that say practically anything.

Not at all. This isn't quote mining. Virtually all authorities on the subject describe the religion of Nuristanis and Kalash people as Rigvedic or proto-Rigvedic. This is the view expressed by others like Michael Witzel and Barbara A. West.

James B. Manahan writes: "Living in the high mountain valleys, the Nuristani retained their ancient culture and their religion, a form of ancient Hinduism with many customs and rituals developed locally." (Minahan, James B. (10 February 2014). Ethnic Groups of North, East, and Central Asia: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 205. ISBN 9781610690188.)

Barbara West writes: "Their religion is a form of Hinduism that recognizes many gods and spirits ... given their Indo-Aryan language, ... the religion of the Kalasha is much more closely aligned to the Hinduism of their Indian neighbors that to the religion of Alexander the Great and his armies." (West, Barbara A. (19 May 2010). Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania. Infobase Publishing. p. 357. ISBN 9781438119137.)

As for their religion being an early form of Rigvedic or Hinduism, Michael Witzel writes about their deities and their counterparts:

He talks about how they venerate Yama Raja and Indra. Read this pdf

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~w...haReligion.pdf