Afghanistan part of South Asia?

[tilla_jogian]

[MENTION=18008]tripledouble[/MENTION]

Interesintly now we have Irani Baloch DNA samples, and they also seem to be different then Pakistani Baloch.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4259-Post-for-Dodecad-k12b-PCAs-Graphs-and-Dendograms/page4

[tilla_jogian]

Kalash are the benchmark population used a reference for all groups stretching from indus basin to oxus river.


can't see your pic.

that guy could be a fake, loads of "pathans" in india who have distant ancestry, he probaby is mixed with tamil.

anywho, genetics is very premature right now, once big portions of populations of every ethnicity is taken, then we can a better aproxmation and get idea of racial makeup of ethnic groups


the samples or harappa are from khurram agency in fata, it's next to afg, & they still have high s.indian




Pashto is the main east iranic lang. with retroflex consonants, rest are extinct or are too small, such as wakhi which is just spoken by few thousand ppl or ormuri spoken by just 1 pashtun tribe, and like you admit that east iranic languages have retroflexive consonants, it is because east iranic ppl live on border with south asia, they got it through interaction with indo aryan or many pashtuns also have some indoaryan origins.

The samples are from karlani tribes who are believed to be indigenous to FATA/KPK, so thats another reason why they have higher S.Indian component compared to Afghan pashtun samples we have seen so far.

[pashtanajan]

Kalash are the benchmark population used a reference for all groups stretching from indus basin to oxus river.


can't see your pic.

that guy could be a fake, loads of "pathans" in india who have distant ancestry, he probaby is mixed with tamil.

anywho, genetics is very premature right now, once big portions of populations of every ethnicity is taken, then we can a better aproxmation and get idea of racial makeup of ethnic groups


the samples or harappa are from khurram agency in fata, it's next to afg, & they still have high s.indian




Pashto is the main east iranic lang. with retroflex consonants, rest are extinct or are too small, such as wakhi which is just spoken by few thousand ppl or ormuri spoken by just 1 pashtun tribe, and like you admit that east iranic languages have retroflexive consonants, it is because east iranic ppl live on border with south asia, they got it through interaction with indo aryan or many pashtuns also have some indoaryan origins.

Or the retroflexive consonants could just be a preservation of the retroflexive consonants used by Proto-Indo-Europeans, which is a rather likely theory as well, since many Scandinavian languages preserve retroflexive consonants as well! Anything is possible. Yes, but Pashto is one of the only Eastern Iranian languages with huge speakers, but it doesn't mean that it's the only Eastern Iranian language with retroflexive consonants as you had previously mentioned, as that is very incorrect, seeing how Eastern Iranian languages tend to have retroflexive consonants. In fact, it is said that even the ancestral language to Persian had retroflexive consonants, which could imply that retroflexive consonants seen in Pashto could simply be the residual preservation of retroflexive consonants from Ancient Indo-Iranian languages. Indo-Aryan languages may have also preserved retroflexive consonants, since both Indo-Iranian languages and Indo-Aryan languages have a common ancestry.

Yes, but the Pashtuns tested from Kunduz have different results and an East Asian input as well in their admixture, since Pashtuns in Afghanistan live amongst Turkic people as well. They have a higher ANI, Gedrosian, and Caucasian admixture as well. Some Pashtuns from Afghanistan have an ASI admixture as low as 5-8%, which is comparable to Eastern Iranians from Khorasan, Iran's Balochistan, etc. Yes, the Pakistani Pashtun may have been mixed with a Tamil or not, but the point is, that greater mixture in Pakistan between Pashtuns and people indigenous to the south Asian continent have occurred, and thus you see a higher ASI admixture amongst Pakistani Pashtuns. This is why they tend to cluster with Sindhis. And you can find the PCA plot that doesn't seem to show up in this post by looking through my quotes on my profile. I had posted it in another thread.

Edit: The PCA plot I had posted in the other thread doesn't seem to show up there either. It must be a glitch on the site. When I get home on my desktop, I'll see if I can re-upload it.

[tilla_jogian]

Or the retroflexive consonants could just be a preservation of the retroflexive consonants used by Proto-Indo-Europeans, which is a rather likely theory as well, since many Scandinavian languages preserve retroflexive consonants as well! Anything is possible. Yes, but Pashto is one of the only Eastern Iranian languages with huge speakers, but it doesn't mean that it's the only Eastern Iranian language with retroflexive consonants as you had previously mentioned, as that is very incorrect, seeing how Eastern Iranian languages tend to have retroflexive consonants. In fact, it is said that even the ancestral language to Persian had retroflexive consonants, which could imply that retroflexive consonants seen in Pashto could simply be the residual preservation of retroflexive consonants from Ancient Indo-Iranian languages. Indo-Aryan languages may have also preserved retroflexive consonants, since both Indo-Iranian languages and Indo-Aryan languages have a common ancestry.

Yes, but the Pashtuns tested from Kunduz have different results and an East Asian input as well in their admixture, since Pashtuns in Afghanistan live amongst Turkic people as well. They have a higher ANI, Gedrosian, and Caucasian admixture as well. Some Pashtuns from Afghanistan have an ASI admixture as low as 5-8%, which is comparable to Eastern Iranians from Khorasan, Iran's Balochistan, etc. Yes, the Pakistani Pashtun may have been mixed with a Tamil or not, but the point is, that greater mixture in Pakistan between Pashtuns and people indigenous to the south Asian continent have occurred, and thus you see a higher ASI admixture amongst Pakistani Pashtuns. This is why they tend to cluster with Sindhis. And you can find the PCA plot that doesn't seem to show up in this post by looking through my quotes on my profile. I had posted it in another thread.

Edit: The PCA plot I had posted in the other thread doesn't seem to show up there either. It must be a glitch on the site. When I get home on my desktop, I'll see if I can re-upload it.

Does Karlani tribes exist in east Afghanistan bordering Pakistan/FATA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlani

They should be similar to Pakistan HGDP pathan samples. So we need to compare results of similar tribes from both sides to get real picture.

[tripledouble]

[MENTION=18008]tripledouble[/MENTION]

Interesintly now we have Irani Baloch DNA samples, and they also seem to be different then Pakistani Baloch.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ndograms/page4

ofcourse, it makes sense.

u share most genetic and even histroical linkages with your neighbouring populations with whom you live with, Pakistani Baloch and Pashtuns are closer to their fellow compatriots than any other foreign ethnic groups regardless of linguistics or ethnic kinship, [MENTION=17592]yusufzai[/MENTION]

[tilla_jogian]

ofcourse, it makes sense.

u share most genetic and even histroical linkages with your neighbouring populations with whom you live with, Pakistani Baloch and Pashtuns are closer to their fellow compatriots than any other foreign ethnic groups regardless of linguistics or ethnic kinship, @yusufzai

But it seem to be ancient admixture before these ethnic identities were formed. For exemple Yusufzai are believed to be Aspasioi of Alexander time. Both tribes are live in same place, similar kind of name. To much coincidence.

"Alexander personally took command of the shield-bearing guards, foot-companions, archers, Agrianians and horse-javelin-men and led them against the clans—the Aspasioi of Kunar valleys, the Guraeans of the Guraeus (Panjkora) valley, and the Assakenoi of the Swat and Buner valleys"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_campaign_of_Alexander_the_Great

[tilla_jogian]

holy****, this karachi dude is actually infamous troll who belong to UP/Pathan family. Don't go by his posts here, he actually hate all those dark looking people. This guy is hilarious.

[Yousufzai]

Pakistani Baloch and Pashtuns are closer to their fellow compatriots than any other foreign ethnic groups regardless of linguistics or ethnic kinship, @yusufzai

That's ridiculous and depends completely on how you choose to define closeness. I can go to Kunar or Kandahar and greet the people there like how Pashtuns greet one another, and we can speak in our language. I can be more comfortable with them, because I know our culture and traditions are the same. I can't do that with Sindhis or Punjabis or even the Hindko speakers in Peshawar. And it's the same with the Baloch who (aside from some communities that live close to Sindh) I imagine would be much more comfortable with their own brothers from Iran than with you or I.

Of course as you go from region to region, people even within the same ethnic groups will exhibit different admixtures, but that does not mean they aren't one people who share a common history, language, and culture.

It's based on this simple reality that you have the long and lively traditions of Pashtun and Baloch nationalism.

[tripledouble]

That's ridiculous and depends completely on how you choose to define closeness. I can go to Kunar or Kandahar and greet the people there like how Pashtuns greet one another, and we can speak in our language. I can be more comfortable with them, because I know our culture and traditions are the same.

i'm not disputing that u feel closest to same ethnic groups as yours, but i was referencing your earlier comment conflating race with linguistics, which is false, the most common mistake made by laymen

I can't do that with Sindhis or Punjabis or even the Hindko speakers in Peshawar. And it's the same with the Baloch who (aside from some communities that live close to Sindh) I imagine would be much more comfortable with their own brothers from Iran than with you or I.

Yes, of course, Baluch from Turbat will feel closer to a Baloch from Chabahar than to a Sindhi, sameway a Punjabi from Gujrunwala will feel close to a Sikh from Jalandar, or even i a hindkowan from abbotabad/haripur will feel closer to a hindko speaker from muzaffarabad than to you even tho we cum from same province

BUT who do u feel closer to after that.....my question for you is, will you bigger culture shock in Islamabad or in Irbil(Kurd city)?, will you feel more culture shocked in Lahore or Tehran?, will you feel more culture shock in Hindkowan-district of Mansehra or Iranic-city of Herat?will you feel more shock in Samarkand or Srinagar?

Of course as you go from region to region, people even within the same ethnic groups will exhibit different admixtures, but that does not mean they aren't one people who share a common history, language, and culture.

Ths histories can vary by geography, the language varies by dialect & influences, & culture is influenced by interactions with other ethnicities

It's based on this simple reality that you have the long and lively traditions of Pashtun and Baloch nationalism.

ethnic nationalism as a whole is a new concept originating from europe of the 19th century, so it's not "long tradition, but yes you're right tribalism/group-think is more common among pashtun/baloch than among seraikis or gilgitis for example.

[Yousufzai]

Yes, of course, Baluch from Turbat will feel closer to a Baloch from Chabahar than to a Sindhi, sameway a Punjabi from Gujrunwala will feel close to a Sikh from Jalandar, or even i a hindkowan from abbotabad/haripur will feel closer to a hindko speaker from muzaffarabad than to you even tho we cum from same province

That means the nationalists do have a case. Glad we agree. End of discussion.

BUT who do u feel closer to after that.....my question for you is, will you bigger culture shock in Islamabad or in Irbil(Kurd city)?

No no, that's not what we were arguing about, though. You're presenting a false dilemma. You're comparing a city a thousand miles away from my village to the capital of the country I was born in. The Kurds are probably my most distant cousins and I'm not concerned with them. You could have asked me this question if I were an advocate of some larger pan-Iranic state, which I'm not. I'm only saying that the idea of Pashtun unity has some merit to it. You confirmed my idea by admitting that I, as a Pashtun, clearly have more in common with my people in Afghanistan than with other Pakistani ethnic groups.

Ths histories can vary by geography, the language varies by dialect & influences, & culture is influenced by interactions with other ethnicities

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are different dialects even within the same provinces. Culture? How so? Does Pashtunwali change across borders?

ethnic nationalism as a whole is a new concept originating from europe of the 19th century, so it's not "long tradition, but yes you're right tribalism/group-think is more common among pashtun/baloch than among seraikis or gilgitis for example.

Nice not-so-subtle jab at me and my people, man. I'd say being patriotic to harsh, brutal, 67-year-old, highly artificial states is probably the worst form of groupthink possible.

[tripledouble]

That means the nationalists do have a case. Glad we agree. End of discussion.

case of what?it's human nature, we don't need 'nationalists" to tell us that, it's a given, the ethnocentrists

I'm only saying that the idea of Pashtun unity has some merit to it. You confirmed my idea by admitting that I, as a Pashtun, clearly have more in common with my people in Afghanistan than with other Pakistani ethnic groups.

well ofcourse, it makes sense, but what does your unity plan entail?why does unity have to be geographic readjustment?unity can be achieve the way white Americans and Canadians feel about eachother, or how Swiss-Germans,Austrians ^ Germans feel about and work with eachother

I don't think anyone is disputing that there are different dialects even within the same provinces. Culture? How so? Does Pashtunwali change across borders?

not pashtunwali, but culture does vary, even here on this forum, ask afghans, they can tell u how d/f Peshawar feels to kabul, or Charsadda feels to helmand, or even quetta feels to jalalbad.

Nice not-so-subtle jab at me and my people, man.

that was not intended to be insult, it was just my observation...

I'd say being patriotic to harsh, brutal, 67-year-old, highly artificial states is probably the worst form of groupthink possible.

i like you pulled "artificial state" card, most countries in the world are artificial, most are not ethnically homogenous or drawn through wars, or by imperial powers, but Pakistan is far from an artificial state by most modern historians, it is a continuation of the many empires and civilizations that were rooted and encompassed the whole indus basin, parts of north india & east afghanistan.

READ this article by Robert D.Kaplan, he is a critic of Pakistan, but does not refute it's historical logic

http://foreignpolicy.com/2012/06/18/whats-wrong-with-pakistan/

You throw around the word artificial like most new age ethnocentrists, using western labels and stuff etc but YOU know, ethnic states are a new concept which origin in Europe in 19th century, that is why europe has some of most countries despite being smallest continent, and now they want to unify in EU but it's not working.

We have not had such precedent in the history of South-Central Asia and mideast, because of the sheer diversity and population of these regions, these regions are not supposed to function in eurocentric ideas of carving up a state for every linguistic group, these regions were at it's peak in times when ethnic groups engaged with each other and forged empires. So when use the fancy new age words like "artificial" to negate a countries existence, it's pretty much rooted in an artificial concept that wrecked Europe with wars in 19th and 20th centuries, and now a trans-continental crisis where there's a battele for power and the formation of a European identity.

[Adam]

Short answer, yes.

[Adam]

genetics



there's less genetic distance b/w say a sindhi/burusho with pashtun than a pashtun with a kurd or persian.

Where is this from btw?

[tripledouble]

Where is this from btw?

it was a dna blog, i don't remember...found it via google

[Yousufzai]

unity can be achieve the way white Americans and Canadians feel about eachother, or how Swiss-Germans,Austrians ^ Germans feel about and work with eachother

Hard to feel that way when one province dominates the country, bombs your villages, and imprisons and tortures your leaders.

not pashtunwali, but culture does vary, even here on this forum, ask afghans, they can tell u how d/f Peshawar feels to kabul, or Charsadda feels to helmand, or even quetta feels to jalalbad.

Pashtunwali is our culture. I don't know what other culture you're talking about. And of course every city has its own distinct environment and "mood." Although Peshawar may feel different from Kabul, Charsadda from Helmand, and Quetta from Jalalabad, they still have more in common with each other than with other places in Pakistan.

You throw around the word artificial like most new age ethnocentrists, using western labels and stuff etc but YOU know, ethnic states are a new concept which origin in Europe in 19th century, that is why europe has some of most countries despite being smallest continent, and now they want to unify in EU but it's not working.

We have not had such precedent in the history of South-Central Asia and mideast, because of the sheer diversity and population of these regions, these regions are not supposed to function in eurocentric ideas of carving up a state for every linguistic group, these regions were at it's peak in times when ethnic groups engaged with each other and forged empires. So when use the fancy new age words like "artificial" to negate a countries existence, it's pretty much rooted in an artificial concept that wrecked Europe with wars in 19th and 20th centuries, and now a trans-continental crisis where there's a battele for power and the formation of a European identity.

This isn't about using "fancy new age words" (whatever that even means), it's about being honest. Using some bizarre mixture of Islam and nationalism as the only unifying force for a country in an ethnically and culturally diverse region is a recipe for disaster, especially when one group clearly dominates the state and is simply unwilling to compromise and share power. Why did the Bengalis separate? Just for fun? Or because they were tired of being marginalized and repressed?

And using Europe as an example only strengthens my argument. Europeans were butchering each other when they didn't have their own countries. It all stopped when people realized that everyone had to have their own space.

But all this is beside the point. Pakistan might not be artificial in your view, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a brutal state that's known for military coups, political corruption, suppression of its own people, and even genocide. Being blindly loyal to such a state is indeed groupthink.